Proof for praying to saints

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Angels_Unaware said:
Sandusky, you don’t have a point. You have word games and deliberate blindness.

The saints are not dead.

I would encourage anyone who has had any seeds of doubt sown by a prideful, attacking, mis-directed Protestant such as Sandusky to listen to the Litany of the Saints. Just once. One time.

The heart and the spirit can comprehend where word games and mind-bending can only achieve pride and blindness.
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IMO, the word games are yours, and you use them in an attempt to justify your actions.

The dead no longer exist within the sphere of the living, that is a clear statement of scripture:**1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.**Paul is clear on this.
 
sandusky said:
IMO, the word games are yours, and you use them in an attempt to justify your actions.

The dead no longer exist within the sphere of the living, that is a clear statement of scripture:1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.Paul is clear on this.
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So, you’ve quoted another thin slice of the fraction of the bible that you choose to follow? You never answered regarding John 6, 1 Corinthians 11 or Matthew 26. You have them, right? Just checking, as it is hard to tell from your cherry-picking responses.

Saint Paul also said that nothing in life or death, earth or Heaven, even time, can separate us from the love of God. Not death. Saint Paul was clear on this, too. How tragic that, to you, Saint Paul is just dead. Is Elijah dead, too? If so, where did the flaming chariot carry him away to?

Romans 8:37-39 (King James Version) “Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Also: Ephesians 6:18
Revelation 5:8, 8:3 and 8:4
 
po18guy said:
So, you’ve quoted another thin slice of the fraction of the bible that you choose to follow?
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Go through the scripture and list the one to whom all of the prayers of the righteous are addressed.
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po18guy:
You never answered regarding John 6, 1 Corinthians 11 or Matthew 26. You have them, right? Just checking, as it is hard to tell from your cherry-picking responses.
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🤷 They have nothing to do with the OP.
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po18guy:
Saint Paul also said that nothing in life or death, earth or Heaven, even time, can separate us from the love of God. Not death. Saint Paul was clear on this, too. How tragic that, to you, Saint Paul is just dead. Is Elijah dead, too? If so, where did the flaming chariot carry him away to?

Romans 8:37-39 (King James Version) “Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
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Yea, they’re dead, d-e-a-d, dead. 🤷
 
sandusky said:
Go through the scripture and list the one to whom all of the prayers of the righteous are addressed.

🤷 They have nothing to do with the OP.

Yea, they’re dead, d-e-a-d, dead. 🤷
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Teach me to dance! I’ll teach you to answer.
 
savedsinner said:
Revelation 5:8
When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.

God somehow allowed the elders to present to Him the prayers of the Saints. Heaven is a spiritual place and not a physical place, so there wouldn’t have been physical bowls that the saints were holding. Some how the Saints were presenting these prayers to God. And God was allowing them to present to Him these prayers.

The only reason that the Saints in heaven can hear our prayers, is that God allows them to hear them in some form or manner.
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Who are the twenty-four elders? I don’t know whether they are Saints or not, but, at any rate this doesn’t seem to be an example of prayers to them, but to God.
 
Peter_J said:
Angels Unaware,

I just hope that, after you’ve been on CAF a little longer, you come to realize that we try to show a modicum of courtesy to our fellow posters. (“Our fellow posters” includes Protestant posters, by the way.)
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Your response is very odd, considering Sandusky has not shown a modicum of courtesy to those he argues with. Rather than engage those fruitless arguments, I pointed out a quite salient fact- Sandusky plays word games. If you read his posts, he clearly takes things out of context and attempts to prove points that cannot be made from the text.

The bottom line is that this is an argument that has been engaged for several hundred years now, and the outcome of that argument has never changed. Scripture does not directly and unequivocably endorse or prohibit the communion of saints, and therefore others must take their theological positions on the matter on the basis of more than just word parsing.

The suggestion I made to anyone who is seeking on this issue- (which unfortunately has now been lost and buried in argumentation and accusation-) is to listen to the Litany of the Saints, because it expresses so beautifully the true spirit of the communion of the saints that I know a sincere person could not possibly listen to it and come away believing that the song invokes worship.

Just once.
 
Angels_Unaware said:
Your response is very odd, considering Sandusky has not shown a modicum of courtesy to those he argues with. Rather than engage those fruitless arguments, I pointed out a quite salient fact- Sandusky plays word games. If you read his posts, he clearly takes things out of context and attempts to prove points that cannot be made from the text.
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Friend, you’re playing word-games; you know, “dead means alive,” and such. 🤷
 
sandusky said:
Friend, you’re playing word-games; you know, “dead means alive,” and such. 🤷
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“Why do you seek the living one among the dead? He is not here, but he has been raised.” (Lk 24:5b-6a)

twb1621 has an extensive list of Scripture just a few posts back, so I will not reproduce any more, as it is fruitless to argue with a person who argues for its own sake.

But to reinforce my point, you are familiar with the Litany of the Saints, are you? You’ve listened to it and declared it heresy? Is that right?

Lord Have Mercy on Us.
Christ Have Mercy on Us.
Lord Have Mercy on Us

Holy Mary Mother of God
Pray for Us

Saint Michael
Pray for Us

Holy angels of God
Pray for Us

Saint Joseph
Pray for Us

Saint John the Baptist
Pray for Us

All you holy men and women pray for us
 
Catechism of the Catholic Church **

2683 **The witnesses who have preceded us into the kingdom, especially those whom the Church recognizes as saints, share in the living tradition of prayer by the example of their lives, the transmission of their writings, and their prayer today. They contemplate God, praise him and constantly care for those whom they have left on earth. When they entered into the joy of their Master, they were “put in charge of many things.” Their intercession is their most exalted service to God’s plan. We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world.

**2766 **But Jesus does not give us a formula to repeat mechanically. As in every vocal prayer, it is through the Word of God that the Holy Spirit teaches the children of God to pray to their Father. Jesus not only gives us the words of our filial prayer; at the same time he gives us the Spirit by whom these words become in us “spirit and life.” Even more, the proof and possibility of our filial prayer is that the Father “sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, ‘Abba! Father!’” Since our prayer sets forth our desires before God, it is again the Father, “he who searches the hearts of men,” who “knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.” The prayer to Our Father is inserted into the mysterious mission of the Son and of the Spirit.
 
sandusky said:
He’s been raised, and nobody else.

The dead do not dwell in the sphere of the living. 🤷
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Interesting how you are so selective in your responses. What is your opinion on the Litany of Saints?

Why try to twist Scripture into something that supports your argument rather than allowing its truth to unfold with a sense of reverence and humility that allows for the possibility of being wrong?

2b1621 said:
1 Cor. 12:12,27; Rom. 12:5; Col. 3:15; Eph. 4:4 - we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist.
Rom. 8:35-39 - therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.
Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with “deceased” Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.
Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.
Luke 15:7,10 – if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.
John 15:1-6 - Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. The good branches are not cut off at death. They are alive in heaven.
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Ethan_Enoch said:
Who are the twenty-four elders? I don’t know whether they are Saints or not, but, at any rate this doesn’t seem to be an example of prayers to them, but to God.
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Regardless of who the elders are, Revelation 5:8 and 8:3-4 are clearly speaking of the prayers of all the saints in heaven, which are offered to God upon the heavenly altar:

“And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.” (Rev 8:3-4)

The Catholic Church teaches that the saints in heaven can offer prayers on the heavenly altar on behalf of those currently living in the physical world:

CCC 956 - “The intercession of the saints. ‘Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness. . . . [T]hey do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus. . . . So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped.’”

And, the Church teaches that we can specifically ask the saints in heaven to pray on our behalf.

If you want to believe that the saints in heaven are isolated from those living in the world, and that they can’t know enough about our current condition to offer prayers of interecession on our behalf, so be it. Catholics disagree with you on this.

However, it is contradictory of Scripture to think that the saints in heaven are not offering continual prayer to the Lord. And it is disingenuous to argue that the Catholic Tradition of asking those in heaven to pray for us implies any form of saint worship or minimization of Christ’s salvific work.

rocketrob
 
Chaldean_Rite said:
come on sandy, are these dead the ones in Hell or Heaven?
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What do you mean, “come on, Sandy.”

What are you thinking?

There are dead in both heaven and hell.

The ungodly die, and God’s people ***DIE.*****Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His godly ones.

Ps 116:15**

🤷 What are you being taught???
 
sandusky said:
What do you mean, “come on, Sandy.”

What are you thinking?

There are dead in both heaven and hell.

The ungodly die, and God’s people ***DIE.***Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His godly ones.

Ps 116:15:shrug: What are you being taught???
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I don’t think you know the first thing about the Catholic Church to be honest. But that is another question.

So you mean to tell me that those Christians who have died and gone to Heaven are incapable of praying to God for us?

Or are you saying that those Christians that have died and gone to Heaven are incapable of presenting our prayers to God by our request (ie: praying to a saint)?
note:bear in mind that what the Church actually teaches is you can only pray towards canonized saints.

I honestly don’t care about debating with you, just wanted to understand you.

the “come on sandy” is nothing substantial, maybe our lingo are different where we come from.
 
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