Proof for praying to saints

[Angels_Unaware]

I don’t know. I think Scripture is by definition Divine revelation. If it’s not Divine revelation, it’s not Scripture. Of course not everyone agrees that the Bible is Scripture.

He is not arguing that it is not Divine revelation, he is just qualifying the term “obvious”. It is obvious to us that it is Divine Revelation only because the canon was agreed upon in the 4th century. We were not told by the Holy Spirit that the Bible is divine revelation, we received it in faith by the Church Fathers’ testimony of revelation by the Holy Spirit.

 

[P10]

**Small point: **
Ethan Enoch suggested that branches connect to the vine, not to each other… Consider this observation if you will:
When I view a vine I do, in fact, see that many branches connect with each other, and together they ultimately run back to the vine. Each branch does not always run solely and singly back to the vine, but rather smaller branches run back into bigger ones, and so on…
The implication is that we are interconnected, and our communion with the whole of the Body of Christ requires that the spiritual vitality and live of the Vine runs through the older, more mature branches to the smaller newer ones. That, in any case, is the way I see vines working in real life… and I suspect the image remains true for the Church.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

**Small point: **
Ethan Enoch suggested that branches connect to the vine, not to each other… Consider this observation if you will:
When I view a vine I do, in fact, see that many branches connect with each other, and together they ultimately run back to the vine. Each branch does not always run solely and singly back to the vine, but rather smaller branches run back into bigger ones, and so on…
The implication is that we are interconnected, and our communion with the whole of the Body of Christ requires that the spiritual vitality and live of the Vine runs through the older, more mature branches to the smaller newer ones. That, in any case, is the way I see vines working in real life… and I suspect the image remains true for the Church.

**
“Remember, an analogue is not the same thing as the same thing” **

**Proof for praying to saints: MIRACLES! **

 

[twb1621]

I didn’t elaborate here, and I fear I was slightly obtuse. My point was that you seem to be assuming that if the angels in heaven are aware of something, then the saints in heaven must also be aware of it. I don’t think this is necessarily true. The saints and angels probably have different experiences, duties, &c.

Perhaps this may serve better toward your issue;
The assertion that dead saints cannot hear our invocations rests on Ps. 115 [113]:17: “The dead do not praise the Lord…” It should be noted that this psalm was written at a time when Jewish understanding of the after-life was not yet fully developed. By the second century BC the Jews would have a better understanding of both the after-life and the intercessory role of the dead. So it was that Onias saw the deceased prophet Jeremiah praying for
Israel: “What he saw was this: Onias, who had been high priest, a noble and good
man, of modest bearing and gentle manner, one who spoke fittingly and
had been trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was
praying with outstretched hands for the whole body of the Jews. Then in the
same fashion another appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and dignity,
and of marvelous majesty and authority. And Onias spoke, saying, This is a
man who loves the family of Israel and prays much for the people and the
holy city––Jeremiah, the prophet of God. Jeremiah stretched out his right
hand and gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave it he addressed
him thus: Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike
down your adversaries” (2 Macc. 15:12-16).
At the Transfiguration on Mount Tabor, Moses and Elijah appeared talking
with Christ (St. Matt. 17:3). This would have been impossible if they had
been “dead” according to the Protestant understanding of Psalm 115 [113].
In relating to the Pharisees the parable of the Lost Sheep, Christ stated that
“there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who
repents” (St. Luke 15:10). Furthermore, in His discourse to the Sadducees,
Christ declared that the just dead are “equal to angels” (St. Luke 20:36) for
God “is God not of the dead, but of the living; for to him all of them are
alive” (St. Luke 20:38). In Hebrews 12:1 the Old Testament saints are
called “a great cloud of witnesses” that surround the believers in Christ.
Hence, it follows that both angels and humans in heaven are aware of what
is happening on earth. This is because they possess the Beatific Vision
which enables them to see in God whatever knowledge is relevant to them.
That is, they become “multi-scient”: “Now I know in part; then I shall
understand fully” (1 Cor. 13:12). In their glorified state the saints are
capable of unimaginable things, including hearing multiple prayers in
various languages. The Devil himself, though he is finite, is aware of many
things simultaneously and is engaged in multiple activities.
Consider also the following passage:
“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the
heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to
the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the
judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect” (Heb. 12:22-
23).
In this text St. Paul explains to the faithful that although they are still on
earth, they are in communion with the heavenly Jerusalem and with the
dead saints, those righteous made perfect. The faithful on earth are not in
communion with the bodies of the saints buried in peace, but with their
souls. Death does not inhibit this communion.

Consider also the following passage:
“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the
heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to
the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the
judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect” (Heb. 12:22-
23).
In this text St. Paul explains to the faithful that although they are still on
earth, they are in communion with the heavenly Jerusalem and with the
dead saints, those righteous made perfect. The faithful on earth are not in
communion with the bodies of the saints buried in peace, but with their
souls. Death does not inhibit this communion.

The Book of Revelation in the following verses indicates otherwise:
“…the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp,
and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints”
(5:8).
“I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of
God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice,
‘O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and
avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?’” (6:9).
“And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on
their faces and worshiped God, saying, ‘We give thanks to thee, Lord God
Almighty, who art and who wast, that thou hast taken thy great power and
begun to reign. The nations raged, but thy wrath came, and the time for the
dead to be judged, for rewarding thy servants, the prophets and saints, and
those who fear thy name, both small and great, and for destroying the
destroyers of the earth” (11:16-18).

 

[twb1621]

I didn’t elaborate here, and I fear I was slightly obtuse. My point was that you seem to be assuming that if the angels in heaven are aware of something, then the saints in heaven must also be aware of it. I don’t think this is necessarily true. The saints and angels probably have different experiences, duties, &c.

From the Church Fathers;
Fathers
Inscriptions from the Catacombs
“O Atticus, sleep in peace and in the security of thy salvation and pray
earnestly for our sins” (Capitol Museum, Rome);
“Gentianus, faithful, in peace who lived twelve years, eight months and
sixteen days. You will intercede for us in your prayers because we know
that you are in Christ” (Lateran Museum, Rome).

4
CCC # 1852, 2110-2117.
St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures 23 (Mystagogic 5), 10
(c. 350 AD)
“Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first,
the patriarchs, prophets, Apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers
and supplications God would receive our petition; next, we make mention
also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and, to
put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep; for we
believe that it will be of very great benefit to the souls of those for whom
the petition is carried up, while this holy and most solemn Sacrifice is laid
out.”
St. Epiphanius of Salamis, Against All Heresies 75, 8 (377 AD)
“Furthermore, as to mentioning the names of the dead, how is there
anything very useful in that? What is more timely or more excellent than
that those who are still here should believe that the departed do live, and
that they have not retreated into nothingness, but that they exist and are
alive with the Master? And so that this most august proclamation might be
told in full, how do they have hope, who are praying for the brethren as if
they were but sojourning in a foreign land? Useful too is the prayer
fashioned on their behalf, even if it does not force back the whole of guilty
charges laid to them.”
St. Augustine of Hippo, Against Faustus the Manichean 20, 21 (c.
400 AD)
“A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the
memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so
that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers. But it is done
in such a way that our altars are not set up to any one of the martyrs––
although in their memory––but to God Himself, the God of those martyrs …
That worship, which the Greeks call latria and for which there is in Latin
no single term, and which is expressive of the subjection owed to Divinity
alone, we neither accord nor teach that it should be accorded to any save
to the one God.”
St. Jerome, Against Vigilantius 6 (406 AD)
“You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each
other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for
another can be heard; and this is especially clear since the martyrs, though
they cry vengeance for their own blood, have never been able to obtain
their request. But if the Apostles and martyrs while still in the body can
pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about
themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories,
and triumphs.”
St. John Damascene, Apologetical Sermons Against those who Reject
Sacred Images 3, 41 (post 725 AD)
“We worship and adore the Creator and Maker alone, as God who by His
nature is to be worshipped. We worship also the Holy Mother of God, not
as God, but as God’s Mother according to the flesh. Moreover, we worship
also the saints, as elect friends of God, and as having gotten ready audience
with Him.”
Referenceed from lumenverum.org/apologetics/DefendtheFaith/page247.html

hope it helps… God BLess you. :coffeeread:

 

[Ethan_Enoch]

Perhaps this may serve better toward your issue;
The assertion that dead saints cannot hear our invocations rests on Ps. 115 [113]:17: “The dead do not praise the Lord…” It should be noted that this psalm was written at a time when Jewish understanding of the after-life was not yet fully developed. By the second century BC the Jews would have a better understanding of both the after-life and the intercessory role of the dead.

So do you think this verse is incorrect? The writer did not understand what he was writing about? If that’s your argument, I cannot agree with you. I believe in the inerrancy of Scripture.

I believe that the Saints are not spiritually dead, so their spirits can still praise the Lord. If they were spiritually dead they could not.

As it happens, my argument is not based on this at all, but on the observable fact that humans do not recieve spiritual communication from other humans during their physical lives, and, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, we can assume that this doesn’t change after death.

I have to go to class right now; I’ll try to respond to the rest later.

 

[twb1621]

So do you think this verse is incorrect? The writer did not understand what he was writing about? If that’s your argument, I cannot agree with you. I believe in the inerrancy of Scripture.
I’m not sure you interpreted this as it is stated but I’ll wait to hear from you later.
I believe that the Saints are not spiritually dead, so their spirits can still praise the Lord. If they were spiritually dead they could not.
agreed
As it happens, my argument is not based on this at all, but on the observable fact that humans do not recieve spiritual communication from other humans during their physical lives, and, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, we can assume that this doesn’t change after death.
I understand what you’re saying and the fact that the living can not receive verification from the dead (normally speaking) is not an arguement. We do recognize that in the spiritual life, those who attain heaven can hear and understand what is going on as is said in the verses. In our human nature we are limited but not in our spiritual self after salvation is attained. We can’t hear them but they can hear us if you know what I mean.
I have to go to class right now; I’ll try to respond to the rest later.

 

[Peter_J]

I don’t know. I think Scripture is by definition Divine revelation. If it’s not Divine revelation, it’s not Scripture. Of course not everyone agrees that the Bible is Scripture.

Yes, I see your point: if something in “Scripture” were false, then it would not really be Sacred Scripture. But that’s also true of any exercize of infallibility. For example, if an “ecumenical council” taught error, then that just means it was not really an ecumenical council, but just a local council.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

So do you think this verse is incorrect? The writer did not understand what he was writing about? If that’s your argument, I cannot agree with you. I believe in the inerrancy of Scripture.

**Hi Ethan, How are you? **
Sola Scripture doesn’t work honey! Where in scripture does it say that it has inerrant qualities? There are so many errors and c****ontradictions in Scriptures. A few are:

Theological doctrines:
1. God is satisfied with his works
Gen 1:31
God is dissatisfied with his works.
Gen 6:6

2. God dwells in chosen temples
2 Chron 7:12,16
God dwells not in temples
Acts 7:48

3. God dwells in light
Tim 6:16
God dwells in darkness
1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2

4. God is seen and heard
Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
Ex 24:9-11
God is invisible and cannot be heard
John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16

**5. God is tired and rests **Ex 31:17/ Jer 15:6
**God is never tired and never rests **Is 40:28

6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all
**things **Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8

7. God knows the hearts of men
Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3
God tries men to find out what is in their heart
Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12

**8. God is all powerful **Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
**God is not all powerful **Judg 1:19
**9. God is unchangeable **James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19
**God is changeable ****Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/ **Ex 33:1,3,17,14

**10. God is just and impartial **Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25
**God is unjust and partial **Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12

**11. God is the author of evil **Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25
**God is not the author of evil **1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13

**12. God gives freely to those who ask **James 1:5/ Luke 11:10
**God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving ****them **John 12:40/ Josh 11:20/ Is 63:17

13. God is to be found by those who seek him
Matt 7:8/ Prov 8:17
God is not to be found by those who seek him
Prov 1:28

**14. God is warlike **Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15
**God is peaceful **Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33

15. God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious
Jer 13:14/ Deut 7:16/ 1 Sam 15:2,3/ 1 Sam 6:19
God is kind, merciful, and good **James 5:11/ Lam 3:33/ 1 Chron 16:34/ Ezek 18:32/ Ps 145:9/**1 Tim 2:4/ 1 John 4:16/ Ps 25:8

**Dear, **There are also many ( I have around 150 or more) examples if you need more proof that your statement is in error thinking that scriptures could not be! The truth of scripture as interpreted by the “real” church is never in error. But things taken out of context of the entire scripture, in order to prove a particuler point usually are in error as interpreted!

As it happens, my argument is not based on this at all, but on the observable fact that humans do not recieve spiritual communication from other humans during their physical lives, and, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, we can assume that this doesn’t change after death.

**That “observable” fact isn’t true. It is your personal opinion. How do you know humans do not receive spiritual communications from other human beings? Many people profess that they in fact do, and also from the departed. Who are you to dismiss their opinion for your own? Don’t throw out your personal opinion as undisputed fact dear, it just isn’t so! many people have received Miracles from Saints, do yuo wish to call them all liars? I would hope not. You see too nice to do that! **

**Oh, By the way, have you ever heard what happens when we “assume” ? :bigyikes: **

I have to go to class right now; I’ll try to respond to the rest later.

Waiting with baited breath here! :compcoff:

 

[Bastoune]

#10

Click on that “#10” it’s the answer to how and to whom the believer should pray.

I think Sandusky would scold St. Stephen, at the moment of his martyrdom, because St. Stephen directed his prayers to JESUS, not the Father.

"While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, ‘Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.’ " (Acts 7:59)

Stephen did NOT pray the way Jesus said to pray…

Besides that, he shows ignorance of the fact we are to ask others to intercede on our behalf. Does that diminish God’s power?

 

[Bastoune]

So do you think this verse is incorrect? The writer did not understand what he was writing about? If that’s your argument, I cannot agree with you. I believe in the inerrancy of Scripture.

I believe that the Saints are not spiritually dead, so their spirits can still praise the Lord. If they were spiritually dead they could not.

As it happens, my argument is not based on this at all, but on the observable fact that humans do not recieve spiritual communication from other humans during their physical lives, and, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, we can assume that this doesn’t change after death.

I have to go to class right now; I’ll try to respond to the rest later.

I don’t understand this objection. You stated as Scripture says, those who “die” in Christ are alive (and moreso than on Earth) in Him… that Psalm refers to all the dead who were in Sheol (1 Peter 3:18-20) who by the way were conscious and awaiting deliverance. Now they CAN praise God… those righteous.

And 1 Samuel 28 we see that Saul went to a medium, a witch, to try to contact Samuel. Well, much to the witch’s shock and fear, Samuel appeared. Don’t be so surprised that people humans could recieve spiritual communication from other humans during their physical lives.

 

[Bastoune]

Yes, I see your point: if something in “Scripture” were false, then it would not really be Sacred Scripture. But that’s also true of any exercize of infallibility. For example, if an “ecumenical council” taught error, then that just means it was not really an ecumenical council, but just a local council.

Without Sacred Tradition, we would not know what would be part of Sacred Scripture:

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/2CANONS.htm

"Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth: so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. For she is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account are we bound to avoid them, but to make choice of the thing pertaining to the Church with the utmost diligence, and to lay hold of the tradition of the truth. For how stands the case?

"Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient Churches with which the apostles held constant intercourse, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question? For how should it be if the apostles themselves had not left us writings? Would it not be necessary, [in that case,] to follow the course of the tradition which they handed down to those to whom they did commit the Churches?

"To which course many nations of those barbarians who believe in Christ do assent, having salvation written in their hearts by the Spirit, without paper or ink, and, carefully preserving the ancient tradition, believing in one God, the Creator of heaven and earth, and all things therein, by means of Christ Jesus, the Son of God; who, because of His surpassing love towards His creation, condescended to be born of the virgin, He Himself uniting man through Himself to God, and having suffered under Pontius Pilate, and rising again, and having been received up in splendour, shall come in glory, the Saviour of those who are saved, and the Judge of those who are judged, and sending into eternal fire those who transform the truth, and despise His Father and His advent.

"Those who, in the absence of written documents, have believed this faith, are barbarians, so far as regards our language; but as regards doctrine, manner, and tenor of life, they are, because of faith, very wise indeed; and they do please God, ordering their conversation in all righteousness, chastity, and wisdom.

“If any one were to preach to these men the inventions of the heretics, speaking to them in their own language, they would at once stop their ears, and flee as far off as possible, not enduring even to listen to the blasphemous address. Thus, by means of that ancient tradition of the apostles, they do not suffer their mind to conceive anything of the [doctrines suggested by the] portentous language of these teachers, among whom neither Church nor doctrine has ever been established.”

• Irenaeus, “Against the Heresies” (Book 3, Chapter 4) (Polycarp, John’s disciple, taught him well!)

 

[Realcatholicgk]

I think Sandusky would scold St. Stephen, at the moment of his martyrdom, because St. Stephen directed his prayers to JESUS, not the Father.

"While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, ‘Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.’ " (Acts 7:59)

Stephen did NOT pray the way Jesus said to pray…

Besides that, he shows ignorance of the fact we are to ask others to intercede on our behalf. Does that diminish God’s power?

**Hi Bas,:tiphat: **

**Psssss, sand is a “she”! **
**She knows that tells “How” to pray “Hidden away in a room” I am sure that is exactly how she does it! **

** I can’t see her as stupid enough to believe that we should only pray to the Father. I mean she can write so I assume she can also read. The bible is full of people praying to angels, saints and asking for them to pray to God for them. I am sure she has read a little of it at some time in her life. I could be wrong, sometimes we just assume people know what they are talking about. **

**God Bless! **

 

[arn6735]

hello Elizabeth, i think im going to add some questions then answers so that you can clearly understand the point of praying to the saints.

QUESTIONS:

1. Didnt St. Paul say that there’s only one mediator between God and man, Christ Jesus, true man(1 Tim. 2:5)? Why then should you still invoke the help of the saints?
   ANSWER:

• Christ is mans sole defender and mediator, He being the Savior of the world, True God and man. Here’s why His being a defender has no equal: who sacrificed himself for the redemption of all men. This is the truth that God will save all men(1 Tim 2:6). But its not only Christ who can help us through prayers. Heres the proof of this: “I will ask the Father and He will give you another helper to be with you forever”(Jn. 14:15).
  *Acts 27:23-24… because of St. Paul’s mediation, his fellow passengers on he ship numbering 276 persons were saved.
  *James 5:16-18… because of Prophet Elijah’s holiness, Eijah’s prayers for the welfare of the peple were heard by God.
  *Job 42:8. There were three sinful men who directly prayed to God, but these men were doing evil. Because of that, God never heeded their prayers. Instead the Lord advised them,"Now take the seven bulls and seven ras, go to my servant Job, offer a holocaust for yourselves and let him pray for you. I will accept his prayers and excuse your folly in not speaking of me properly as my servant Job has done.
• Here are some other text from the scriptures:
  Prov. 15:9-29
  Rev. 5:8; 8:3

God Bless,

arnold
e-mail add arn6735@yahoo.com

some text taken from the book: Defense: Catholic Truth by: Bro. Soc fernandez
Nat’l. Pres. Catholic Faith Defenders of the Philippines

 

[Bastoune]

I can’t see her as stupid enough to believe that we should only pray to the Father. I mean she can write so I assume she can also read. The bible is full of people praying to angels, saints and asking for them to pray to God for them. I am sure she has read a little of it at some time in her life. I could be wrong, sometimes we just assume people know what they are talking about.

But she’s comparing apples and oranges. Praying to God – Father, Son and/or Holy Spirit – is totally independent of praying for intercession to another person. So if she is arguing against it by saying that it somehow goes against the “Our Father,” I just don’t get it.

“Pray for me.”

There. Now how did that contradict the Lord’s Prayer? It has nothing to do with praying to God…

 

[rbspace]

My Brothers and Sisters,

We are supposed to pray to the FATHER in JESUS’ Name! That is how you smack heaven and earth together, when you pray (Read John 16:23-27). As far as this intercessory stuff goes, let’s look at Hebrews 7:25 NIV - “Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.”
I’m telling you, if you come boldly before the throne (heb 4:16) in the name of Jesus you will see answered prayer!
Praise God!

In His Service,

Rbspace

 

[Realcatholicgk]

But she’s comparing apples and oranges. Praying to God – Father, Son and/or Holy Spirit – is totally independent of praying for intercession to another person. So if she is arguing against it by saying that it somehow goes against the “Our Father,” I just don’t get it.

“Pray for me.”

There. Now how did that contradict the Lord’s Prayer? It has nothing to do with praying to God…

** Hi Bas,

Probably her denomination doesn’t believe in the communion of saints and believes in sola scriptura. I can’t be sure, there are 33,000 denominations and 28,000 sub denominations and all 61,000 of them share 1,375 different doctrines. Unlike the CC church they are constantly changing like a cancer on the body of Christ… many times, they aren’t even sure what they believe. Except that the CC is wrong! Now , who would be against Jesus?
You see, back about 500 years ago the devil saw an opportunity to infect the CC. He caused good God fearing Catholics to breakaway and distort God’s teachings. Basically, they threw away the baby, “Jesus”, with the bath water. The devil has blinded them to the real church and the true teachings since then. Some people use their intelligence to break free and rejoin the real church while others remain blind. All we can do is pray for them and their salvation. Does that help explain? **

 

[Realcatholicgk]

My Brothers and Sisters,

We are supposed to pray to the FATHER in JESUS’ Name! That is how you smack heaven and earth together, when you pray (Read John 16:23-27). As far as this intercessory stuff goes, let’s look at Hebrews 7:25 NIV - “Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.”
I’m telling you, if you come boldly before the throne (heb 4:16) in the name of Jesus you will see answered prayer!
Praise God!

In His Service,

Rbspace

**Hi Rbs,

The historic Christian practice of asking our departed brothers and sisters in Christ—the saints—for their intercession has come under attack in the last few 500 hundred years. Though the practice dates to the earliest days of Christianity and is shared by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, the other Eastern Christians, and even some Anglicans—meaning that all-told it is shared by more than three quarters of the Christians on earth—it still comes under heavy attack from many within the Protestant movement that started in the sixteenth century. It is believed that it works so well that the devil is attempting to have it stopped. The less help we can get, the more souls he wins.

In Revelation 5:8, St John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. it is clear that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints.

Asking the saints for their intercession in no way violates the sole mediatorship of Christ, which Paul discusses: “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 2:5). Why would it? Consider the way in which Christ is our mediator. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us.

Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek: mesitas) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19–20).
This intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, St Paul says that Christians should interceed: “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:1–4).

Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something “good and pleasing to God,” not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.

Now here is the kicker Rbs: You and other ask why one would want to ask the saints to pray for us. “Why not pray directly to Jesus?” is asked. The answer is: “Of course one should pray directly to Jesus!” But that does not mean it is not also a “good thing” to ask others to pray for one as well. Ultimately, your “go-directly-to-Jesus” objection boomerangs back**

Why? Well, why should you ask any Christian, in heaven or on earth, to pray for you when you can ask Jesus directly? If the mere fact that we can go straight to Jesus proved that we should ask no Christian in heaven to pray for us then it would also prove that we should ask no Christian on earth to pray for us.

And you do that every day don’t you? I know I do. As we saw, in 1 Timothy 2:1–4, St Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere St Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44). :yup:

Since the practice of asking others to pray for us is so highly recommended in Scripture, it cannot be regarded as superfluous on the grounds that one can go directly to Jesus. The New Testament would not recommend it if there were not benefits coming from it. One such benefit is that the faith and devotion of the saints can support our own weaknesses and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion. :yup:

Jesus regularly supplied for one person based on another person’s faith (e.g., Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:15–18, Mark 9:17–29, Luke 8:49–55). And it goes without saying that those in heaven, being free of the body and the distractions of this life, have even greater confidence and devotion to God than anyone on earth.

 

[Ecoclimber]

I’m kind of sitting on the fence on this one. Trying to make my way back to CC. As previous posts stated 1 Tim 2:5-6
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men the testimony given in its proper time. Notice in the Greek it doesn’t say mediators.

Also given the fact that saints are not omnipotent, omnipresent nor omniscience, how can a saint process 10 billion prayers at time from all the people who praying to them from various parts of the globe?

Also, there is a commandment not to communicate with the dead. You can open the door to the occult. Are not saints dead people and prayer is a conversation with that person. Do people really know the difference and wouldn’t they risk falling into bondage from a demon who could masquerade as saint?

Curious

 

[Angels_Unaware]

I’m kind of sitting on the fence on this one. Trying to make my way back to CC. As previous posts stated 1 Tim 2:5-6
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men the testimony given in its proper time. Notice in the Greek it doesn’t say mediators.

That verse refers to the mediation of atonement. The mediation of Christ opens the chasm between the Holy Father and sinful man. If this verse prohibited intercession, then it would also prohibit those on earth praying for one another.

Also given the fact that saints are not omnipotent, omnipresent nor omniscience, how can a saint process 10 billion prayers at time from all the people who praying to them from various parts of the globe?

Because they are outside of time. Think of the disbelief those in the Middle Ages would have if you told them we were communicating right now.

Also, there is a commandment not to communicate with the dead. You can open the door to the occult. Are not saints dead people and prayer is a conversation with that person. Do people really know the difference and wouldn’t they risk falling into bondage from a demon who could masquerade as saint?

Curious

We are prohibited from conjuring the “dead” for occult knowledge information and future predictions. The saints are not dead, of course, and further, the communion of saints does not involve the expectation of receiving messages from the saints. (Though people do receive signs).The best evidence of why to ask for the prayers of saints is to examine the actual words that are spoken… and then judge the piousness of those words. In the prayer below to St. Jude, is there invocation of the dead for occult knowledge and worship of a person going on? You, as a Christian who knows right from wrong, have the ability to look at this and see for yourself whether it is good or bad. To those that prayer to St. Jude would be a temptation or would lead them away from worship of God, those should not do it.

*Most holy Apostle, St. Jude, faithful servant and friend of Jesus, the Church honors and invokes you universally, as the patron of difficult cases, of things almost despaired of, Pray for me, I am so helpless and alone. Intercede with God for me that He bring visible and speedy help where help is almost despaired of. Come to my assistance in this great need that I may receive the consolation and help of heaven in all my necessities, tribulations, and sufferings, particularly -(make your request here)