Proof for praying to saints

[Seeking12]

Seeking12;4840874:

There are many Protestant friends of mine who despise the Catholic teachings and label Catholics all sorts of unkind things. Do not look at the messenger, but the message. That said, pride is a sin, for all who are proud, regardless of denimination.

**You have to look at the whole of what lead up to this post. I appreciate Real because he/she does not hold back; but sometimes he/she goes way too overboard. We are not here, I hope, to bash anothers religion or faith; but hopefully to refute error. Unfortunately we all make it a little personal, including myself.

I do not know a Catholic person that I do not like or would say I dislike and the people at my own church that have come out of the system would all agree that they thought they knew Jesus, but were actually trying to work their way to Him. But you could put that around the other way and have some that came from a Protestant background and went to the Catholic Church and say they now know Jesus. God will sort all that out at the end of everyone’s lives if not sooner.**

 

[Peter_J]

**You have to look at the whole of what lead up to this post. I appreciate Real because he/she does not hold back; but sometimes he/she goes way too overboard. We are not here, I hope, to bash anothers religion or faith; but hopefully to refute error. Unfortunately we all make it a little personal, including myself.
**

I think I know what you mean, Seeking12.

I don’t want to bash Protestants, but if I did I would at least try to be open and honest about it, rather than trying to “sneak it in” amidst a bunch of sugar-coated words.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Thanks for the link, Realcatholicgk. I was a bit skeptical of your claim before, but now that you have dailymail.co.uk backing you up … well, that really showed me, didn’t it?

**
Hi PeteJ,
Cute! How about Click on; Fox News ** or

Click on: US A Today?

**It was all over the World News buddy, I didn’t make it up neither did dailymail.co.uk! The Pope backs it up!

In the document - formulated as five questions and answers - the Vatican seeks to set the record straight on Vatican II’s ecumenical intent, saying some contemporary theological interpretation had been “erroneous or ambiguous” and had prompted confusion and doubt.

It restates key sections of a 2000 document the Pope himself wrote when he was prefect of the congregation, “Dominus Iesus,” which set off a firestorm of criticism among Protestant and other Christian denominations because it said they were not true churches but merely ecclesial communities and therefore did not have the “means of salvation.”

In the new document and an accompanying commentary - which were released as the pope vacations here in Italy’s Dolomite mountains - the Vatican repeated that position.

“Christ ‘established here on earth’ only one Church,” the document said. The other communities “cannot be called ‘churches’ in the proper sense” because they do not have apostolic succession - the ability to trace their bishops back to Christ’s original apostles.

The Rev. Sara MacVane of the Anglican Centre in Rome, said there was nothing new in the new document.

“I don’t know what motivated it at this time,” she said. “But it’s important always to point out that there’s the official position and there’s the huge amount of friendship and fellowship and worshipping together that goes on at all levels, certainly between Anglican and Catholics and all the other groups and Catholics.”

The document said Orthodox churches were indeed “churches” because they have apostolic succession and that they enjoyed “many elements of sanctification and of truth.” But it said they lack something because they do not recognize the primacy of the pope - a defect, or a “wound” that harmed them, it said.

“This is obviously not compatible with the doctrine of Primacy which, according to the Catholic faith, is an ‘internal constitutive principle’ of the very existence of a particular Church,” the commentary said.

Despite the harsh tone of the document, it stresses that Benedict remains committed to ecumenical dialogue.

“However, if such dialogue is to be truly constructive it must involve not just the mutual openness of the participants but also fidelity to the identity of the Catholic faith,” the commentary said.

The document, signed by the congregation prefect, American Cardinal William Levada, was approved by Benedict on June 29, the feast of Sts. Peter and Paul - a major ecumenical feast day.

The truth is the truth peterJ!

God Bless**

 

[Realcatholicgk]

You are right. This is not Catholic, and it is hurtful. It misrepresnts the Church founded by Jesus, and adds division and wounds to HIs Body.

**Hi Guan,

Actualy it is! It is Roman Catholic. The truth may hurt but it remains the truth! Protestants misrepresewnt themselves as members of the body of christ in their practices! Do you actually believe anyone who: Deny the Trinity of God; Reject His truths for words written in a corrupt version of scriptures; Refuse to acknowledge Christ’s church; Deny His existance in the Eucharist; Reject His mother; Denys the saints, and who are following false teachings going exactly opposite of what Jesus taught can be saved through their own means?

Or perhaps like me, do you think that their valid Baptism made them Catholics and only through the grace of God they may become worthy of the promises of Christ, just like we other Catholics may?

We are to witness the truth and the truth only! God will judge who is worthy for salvation. Our job is to become the best Christian we can become. And the only way that will ever happen is through the teachings of the Catholic church! They are being taught false teachings!

Am I lying?

I pray for the conversion of all sinners and for the end of abortion daily. I ask others to do the same in Jesus’ name!

God Bless**

 

[Realcatholicgk]

You are clueless as to what Protestants act, do or believe; part of your lack of humility, arrogance, pride and misunderstanding. You are a lousy representative for the Catholic faith, from an outside perspective. You know the saying, no one cares how much you know until they know how much you care. There is no doubt that you do not represent Christ; for no representative of Christ could act this way and upon reviewing your other posts, this is more of a game and hobby for you. I really hope you change your unbelief for your own sake.

There are many Protestant friends of mine who despise the Catholic teachings and label Catholics all sorts of unkind things. Do not look at the messenger, but the message. That said, pride is a sin, for all who are proud, regardless of denomination.

**You have to look at the whole of what lead up to this post. I appreciate Real because he/she does not hold back; but sometimes he/she goes way too overboard. We are not here, I hope, to bash anothers religion or faith; but hopefully to refute error. Unfortunately we all make it a little personal, including myself.

I do not know a Catholic person that I do not like or would say I dislike and the people at my own church that have come out of the system would all agree that they thought they knew Jesus, but were actually trying to work their way to Him. But you could put that around the other way and have some that came from a Protestant background and went to the Catholic Church and say they now know Jesus. God will sort all that out at the end of everyone’s lives if not sooner.**

**Hi guys,

I have no pride, I have no hate. I am but a servant of my lord and savior Jesus Christ! What I say I only say with love and concern for the other children of God who are being mislead by Satan. I will not lie. I will not deceive. I will not judge anyone. Seeking12: I am a 64 year old male! I am here to speak the truth! Not to bash anyone. False beliefs are false and must be stamped under our feet! All people are children of god and deserve salvation. Jesus died so each and everyone of us may obtain eternal life. We can only do that by following Him. The scary thing to you should be what a wise man once said: “God will sort all that out at the end of everyone’s lives, if not sooner”

Scriptures clearly supports everything I say and the beliefs of the Catholic church. The words in scruptures are harsher than any words I use.

All groups that call themselves Christians and aren’t Catholics are false and their doctrines, dogmas and beliefs are all twisted and corrupted Catholic truths! It is that simple and that obvious.

The more people study history, the clearer it becomes. And at Judgment day, I want everyone to be able to say “Yea, God, I was warned” as He reads your final Judgment. “In the end, forever, you and I will be in Heaven or Hell. Period.” ~ Fr John Corapi I want us all to get to Heaven! This is no hobby or game to me, it is about saving lives!

Prior to 1517AD, there was One Christian Church. “ONE” with several different sects. They in fact are still firmly together even today!

While some good people were attempting to right some very wrong practices in the Church, Satan saw this as a change to infecte the Christian church and steal souls from God.

It worked, today there are 33,000 counterfeit groups calling themselves Christians. These denominations, or non-denominations with over 28,000 sub denominations, or various associations, conferences, conventions, fellowships, groups, sect, cults, unions, potlucks or whatever are all imitations of eachother and the real Christian church!. All together, there are around 61,000 phony groups having about 1,375 combinations of doctrines and dogmas.

Now, please remember that all of them partially “agree with the CC” and all of them partially “disgree with the CC”.

So I ask you! You people who are so much smarter than I could ever hope to be ~ who the heck is right? The one holy catholic and apostolic church that has taught only the truth for 2,000 years, refusing to compromise the truth and remained faithful to Jesus teachings even if it meant lossing many souls to Satan during the reformation, or any one of the newly formed 61,000 false groups teaching over 1,375 doctrines and leading people away from Jesus’ real church?

Remember, you can copy money but if it doesn’t have the backing of the authorized issurer it is counterfeit. It can’t be spent to buy anything!

You can copy Christianity, but if it doesn’t have the backing of the Holy Catholic Church it is counterfeit. It can’t be used to obtain salvation!

Read John Chapter 6. Absorb what Jesus says! Remember only the Catholic Church offers the real communion. Now, why would Protestant groups deny the turth of Jesus’ words. Why call Him a liar? The Eucharist is one of the 7 sacraments that Jesus left His church. Not 2 or 3 or 4 but 7. Seven is the Jewish number for “wholeness” and “completeness”! Jesus made 7 sacraments for a reason! In the Eucharist, Jesus is present both Physically and Spiritually. He is “Completely” present. Praise be to God!
Think about it, your Lord and God is present for you to worship. You can eat His Body and Drink His blood as He commanded you must do in order to obtain eternal salvation. Only Catholics can do this! Only real believers seem to understand the truth because the devil keeps his followers blinded to the truth!

None are as blind as those who refuse to see!

“When you crash against the rock, you will not damage the rock but you will hurt yourself.” Fr John Corapi. Read Matt 16:18, There you will find the truth!

You are all in my prayers daily!

God Bless**

 

[Peter_J]

Realcatholicgk,

Feel free to start a “If you aren’t following the RCC you aren’t a Christian” thread, if you want to, but I don’t plan to participate on it.

(To repeat what I said on another thread …

I agree that we can’t police or censor the internet. But I can decide that I, personally, am not going to participate on any threads or blogs that are given to Catholic-bashing [or misrepresenting Catholicism], Orthodox-bashing, or Protestant-bashing. If enough people make that decision, than those threads/blogs would lose their effectiveness (without actually being censored).

)

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Realcatholicgk,

Feel free to start a “If you aren’t following the RCC you aren’t a Christian” thread, if you want to, but I don’t plan to participate on it.

(To repeat what I said on another thread …

**Hi PeteJ,

Excellent point, then we wouldn’t have to waste time typing! **

 

[Bastoune]

script77;4851989:

**You have to look at the whole of what lead up to this post. I appreciate Real because he/she does not hold back; but sometimes he/she goes way too overboard. We are not here, I hope, to bash anothers religion or faith; but hopefully to refute error. Unfortunately we all make it a little personal, including myself.

I do not know a Catholic person that I do not like or would say I dislike and the people at my own church that have come out of the system would all agree that they thought they knew Jesus, but were actually trying to work their way to Him. But you could put that around the other way and have some that came from a Protestant background and went to the Catholic Church and say they now know Jesus. God will sort all that out at the end of everyone’s lives if not sooner.**

I would say that the Catholics who thought they had to “work” their way to salvation were clueless about what the Church really teaches. Catholics who leave the Church are always ones who had no clue about what the Church really teaches – they get brainwashed by fundamentalist theologies to which they fall prey because they rebel due to their own egos.

Luther was a similar case. When he said that the Scripture was “so obvious” on justification by faith alone, Erasmus asked how such a doctrine being so obvious was MISSED by so many for so many years. And when the Anabaptists decided to break away from Luther because they found infant baptism anti-biblical, it was “obvious” to them they were right and “obvious” to Luther from the same Bible that they were wrong.

I don’t see anyone bashing you… I think maybe you’re looking for a fight. Why not just settle down and pray.

Section 1996 of the Catechism says:

Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life. (Jn 4:14; 7:38-39.)

Sections 161-162 the Catechism says:

(161) "Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation …therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification…(162) Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man…

The Catechism also talks about our response to faith, (sections 161-162 and 1997-2000) which is to go out into the world and do as Jesus would have us do (2 Tim 4:7; Mk 13:13; Jam 1:2/2:14-16; Mt 7:20/10:22/24:13; Heb 11:6; 2 Cor. 5:10; etc.)

But I am digressing from the thread.

My brother, my child – relax. No one here is attacking you. And if someone does, do not respond with a lack of charity.

 

[guanophore]

Hi Guan,

Actualy it is! It is Roman Catholic. The truth may hurt but it remains the truth!

No, GK, it is not.

Don’t be foolish! If you aren’t following the RCC you aren’t a Christian PERIOD! It is that simple.

It is bigoted to disregard the 22 Rites of the Catholic Church that are not “Roman”. All these Catholics are just as much in communion with the Bishop of Rome as the Latins.

It is also bigoted to purport that those who are not Catholic Christians are not believers in Christ. This contradicts the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Not only that, but the Protestants do follow, for the most part, the the RCC. They are only separated to the extent that they deny RCC doctrine. Most of it they do accept.

The desire of your heart means nothing without the action of your soul!

Most non Catholic Christians are very fervent in their faith, and do desire to follow Christ with all their heart, mind, soul and strength.

No other faith has the real physical presense of Jesus Christ in their services.

This is also a falsehood, and contrary to the teaching of the Catholic Church.

All any Protestant groups have is the spiritual presence of Christ that he promised when two or more gathered in His name. .

Although this is less than He desired, it should not be minimized. Jesus desires to draw all unto Himself, and the CAtholic Church teaches that the HS works through these ecclesial communities to do just that.

Protestants misrepresewnt themselves as members of the body of christ in their practices!

Not purposefully, though. Those who are validly baptized are members of His body, and the Catholic Church accepts their baptisms as valid, therefore, saying that they are not is contradicting the teaching of the Church.

Yes, some of their practices take them away from the One Church. However, your refusal to acknowlege what Holy Mother Church has declared as valuable and good in our separated brethren is wounding the Body further.

Do you actually believe anyone who: Deny the Trinity of God; Reject His truths for words written in a corrupt version of scriptures; Refuse to acknowledge Christ’s church; Deny His existance in the Eucharist; Reject His mother; Denys the saints, and who are following false teachings going exactly opposite of what Jesus taught can be saved through their own means?

No. God saves them by His grace, just as He does us. Those who deny the Trinity cannot be considered Christian. Those who have a corrupt version of the scriptures often do not even know that they do, and are doing the best they can with the one they have.

They have been given a deficient understanding of the Church, through no fault of their own.

They have not had the benefit of God’s revelation about His mother, and are inadquately educated about the saints because they were given a deficient understanding of the church. In spite of all these shortcomings, many of them are fervent in following what they have been given. They are like Apollos in the book of Acts, and should be approached as Paul demonstrated, rather than with bigotry and falsehoods.

Or perhaps like me, do you think that their valid Baptism made them Catholics and only through the grace of God they may become worthy of the promises of Christ, just like we other Catholics may?

Valid baptism is not always followed by proper catechesis, whether one is Catholic, or not. If you are willing to acknowledge that they have received valid baptism, then it is wrong to say that “you aren’t a Christian PERIOD!”

We are to witness the truth and the truth only! God will judge who is worthy for salvation. Our job is to become the best Christian we can become.

I agree. I don’t think that means misrepresenting the Catholic faith.

And the only way that will ever happen is through the teachings of the Catholic church! They are being taught false teachings!

This will not be corrected by giving out false teachings of your own.

Am I lying?

I do not think so. A lie is a deliberate attempt to deceive others. I believe that you honestly embrace the fallacies that you post here. I believe that you are an honest bigot.

I pray for the conversion of all sinners and for the end of abortion daily. I ask others to do the same in Jesus’ name!

A noble quest. Had you considered confining yourself to it?

 

[guanophore]

I have no pride, I have no hate.

It may not seem that way to you, but those of us who read your posts perceive it differently.

I am but a servant of my lord and savior Jesus Christ! What I say I only say with love and concern for the other children of God who are being mislead by Satan. I will not lie. I will not deceive.  I will not judge anyone.

Clearly you have judged, as evidenced by the post before this one. I believe that you misrepresent Catholicism in all sincerity. You believe what you are saying, and do so believing that you are speaking the truth. This cannot be equated with deception, as you are not making a deliberate attempt to mislead, but are misled yourself.

 False beliefs are false and must be stamped under our feet! All people are children of god and deserve  salvation. Jesus died so each and everyone of us may obtain eternal life. We can only do that by following Him. The scary thing to you should be what a wise man once said: "God will sort all that out at the end of everyone's lives, if not sooner"

From your posts, it appears that you have taken over the job, and have already started the sorting.

Scriptures clearly supports everything I say and the beliefs of the Catholic church. The words in scruptures are harsher than any words I use.

Your statements do not accurately represent either the Scripture, or the Teaching of the Church.

All groups that call themselves Christians and aren’t Catholics are false and their doctrines, dogmas and beliefs are all twisted and corrupted Catholic truths! It is that simple and that obvious.

I am sure in your mind that it is that simple, and that obvious. However, the Catholic Church teaches differently. The Church teaches that many truths can be found in these ecclesial communities, and that the HS works within them to bring people to Himself. To the extent that they hold the doctrines, dogmas, and beliefs of the Apostolic faith, they are not twisted or corrupted. You seem to be throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

This is no hobby or game to me, it is about saving lives!

If that is the case, you might consider forfeiting one of those nightcaps and spending a little more time with the Catechism.

Prior to 1517AD, there was One Christian Church.  "ONE" with several different sects. They in fact are still firmly together even today!

I think such a statement minimzes the Great Schism.

It worked, today there are 33,000 counterfeit groups calling themselves Christians.

Such a statement again reveals a rebellion against the teaching of the Church, by failing to recognize valid baptism.

or whatever are all imitations of eachother and the real Christian church!. All together, there are around 61,000 phony groups having about 1,375 combinations of doctrines and dogmas.

This is your opinion, GK. The Catholic Church teaches that many of the Apostolic Truths can be found within all of them, to a greater or lesser degree, and that the HS works through them to bring souls to Himself.

Now, please remember that all of them partially "agree with the CC"  and all of them partially "disgree with the CC".:shrug:

This being the case, it makes more sense to validate what is true, instead of disparaging all of them entirely, and calling them “counterfeit”. Most of these persons are doing the best they can with what they have, albeit deficient.

Remember, you can copy money but if it doesn't have the backing of the authorized issurer it is counterfeit. It can't be spent to buy anything!

A good proof that your analogy is inaccurate. Since the Catholic Church teaches infallibly, and that teaching is that many truths exist in the Protestant ecclesial communities, and that the HS uses these communities to draw people to Himself, it is clear that “real” currency does exist.

You can copy Christianity, but if it doesn't have the backing of the Holy Catholic Church it is counterfeit. It can't be used to obtain salvation!

Such a statement contradicts the teaching of the Catholic Church and is, therefore, false.

In fact, the Catholic Church validates the truths and valid baptisms that exist among our separated brethren.

None are as blind as those who refuse to see!

This is true. I have posted this to you so many times, I am ready to save it in a text file, as I do rebuttals to my recalcitrant separated brethren.

 

[Phil_Ratliff]

Where I come from, this is called “quibbling.”

Go back through the OT, and note to whom the righteous address all prayer. Continue that notation in the NT.

Hah. Sandusky is all over the map.

Elizabeth, it’s a simple concept. We Christians pray for one another. We are in communion with all saints, those on earth and those in heaven. The prayers of the righteous are especially effective. “Praying to the saints,” that is, asking saints in heaven to pray for you, is the practice of the earliest Christians. From a personal perspective, it is a very lovely, effective spiritual discipline that has grown rich with time. Worshipping a God whose heavenly court is filled with glorious saints makes God that much more awe inspiring. This is how God has chosen to reveal himself, through the words, acts of his people as we are in communion with one another. It’s quite beautiful.

 

[Phil_Ratliff]

**Hi guys,

I have no pride, I have no hate. I am but a servant of my lord and savior Jesus Christ! What I say I only say with love and concern for the other children of God who are being mislead by Satan. I will not lie. I will not deceive. I will not judge anyone. Seeking12: I am a 64 year old male! I am here to speak the truth! Not to bash anyone. False beliefs are false and must be stamped under our feet! All people are children of god and deserve salvation. Jesus died so each and everyone of us may obtain eternal life. We can only do that by following Him. The scary thing to you should be what a wise man once said: “God will sort all that out at the end of everyone’s lives, if not sooner”

Scriptures clearly supports everything I say and the beliefs of the Catholic church. The words in scruptures are harsher than any words I use.

All groups that call themselves Christians and aren’t Catholics are false and their doctrines, dogmas and beliefs are all twisted and corrupted Catholic truths! It is that simple and that obvious.

The more people study history, the clearer it becomes. And at Judgment day, I want everyone to be able to say “Yea, God, I was warned” as He reads your final Judgment. “In the end, forever, you and I will be in Heaven or Hell. Period.” ~ Fr John Corapi I want us all to get to Heaven! This is no hobby or game to me, it is about saving lives!

Prior to 1517AD, there was One Christian Church. “ONE” with several different sects. They in fact are still firmly together even today!

While some good people were attempting to right some very wrong practices in the Church, Satan saw this as a change to infecte the Christian church and steal souls from God.

It worked, today there are 33,000 counterfeit groups calling themselves Christians. These denominations, or non-denominations with over 28,000 sub denominations, or various associations, conferences, conventions, fellowships, groups, sect, cults, unions, potlucks or whatever are all imitations of eachother and the real Christian church!. All together, there are around 61,000 phony groups having about 1,375 combinations of doctrines and dogmas.

Now, please remember that all of them partially “agree with the CC” and all of them partially “disgree with the CC”.

So I ask you! You people who are so much smarter than I could ever hope to be ~ who the heck is right? The one holy catholic and apostolic church that has taught only the truth for 2,000 years, refusing to compromise the truth and remained faithful to Jesus teachings even if it meant lossing many souls to Satan during the reformation, or any one of the newly formed 61,000 false groups teaching over 1,375 doctrines and leading people away from Jesus’ real church?

Remember, you can copy money but if it doesn’t have the backing of the authorized issurer it is counterfeit. It can’t be spent to buy anything!

You can copy Christianity, but if it doesn’t have the backing of the Holy Catholic Church it is counterfeit. It can’t be used to obtain salvation!

Read John Chapter 6. Absorb what Jesus says! Remember only the Catholic Church offers the real communion. Now, why would Protestant groups deny the turth of Jesus’ words. Why call Him a liar? The Eucharist is one of the 7 sacraments that Jesus left His church. Not 2 or 3 or 4 but 7. Seven is the Jewish number for “wholeness” and “completeness”! Jesus made 7 sacraments for a reason! In the Eucharist, Jesus is present both Physically and Spiritually. He is “Completely” present. Praise be to God!
Think about it, your Lord and God is present for you to worship. You can eat His Body and Drink His blood as He commanded you must do in order to obtain eternal salvation. Only Catholics can do this! Only real believers seem to understand the truth because the devil keeps his followers blinded to the truth!

None are as blind as those who refuse to see!

“When you crash against the rock, you will not damage the rock but you will hurt yourself.” Fr John Corapi. Read Matt 16:18, There you will find the truth!

You are all in my prayers daily!

God Bless**

The real Catholic view on salvation outside the Church is much more nuanced than you’re presenting, real Catholic.