Prop 8: Sorry, I gotta ask

[Apologist78]

You know… I’ve been thinking…

Out of ALL of the problems our world has, why are we concentrating on things that are irrevelant?

War, Epidemics, Rape, Murder, Poverty… Recession ?!], and people decide to protest against gay marriage… Really? Am I the only one who’s amazed by this?

We’re being distracted by something that we shouldn’t care about… we’re being distracted from the issues that really need to be fixed in order to make this world a better place–not for Christians, but for mankind.

As much as a happy Catholic I am, I must say, religion really puts a leash around your neck.

I may say more on this, but that’s just a basic idea of what I’ve been… eh… contemplating. I’m really curious about what you guys think.

Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood

The family itself forms the fabric of society. It the family itself comes under attack, or someone wants to redefine what constitutes a family, society itself is undermined, distorted and warped. A healthy society begins with a healthy family. When families are not healthy society is not healthy.

Those who support proposition eight are not meaning to discriminate against homosexuals, they are simply seeking to define what constitutes a marriage. If you think about it there is no definition given- for years it was obvious, hence no definition was necessary. Today however it is less obvious, so supporters of prop 8 are seeking a definition.

That a marriage is defined as one man and one women— if such discriminates against homosexuals, then it also discriminates against those who want polygamy- since marriage is not only defined as between a man and a women, but ONE man and ONE women. The prop does not forbid homosexuals from living together or having what they believe is a relationship. It does not forbid them from expressing what they believe is love for each other. It does not forbid them from leaving their possessions to each other, etc. It simply defines what constitutes a legal marriage. Thats it. That is all it does. One might turn the question around and ask “Why is this such a big deal to homosexuals? If they were truly comfortable with who they are, they would not care whether or not the state chooses to recognize unions between those of the same sex.”

 

[Apologist78]

Catholics, and others who were opposed to Prop 8 saw it as an attack on the family. I think it would be fair to say that a large number of our nation’s problems can be tied back to the disintegration of the family unit. So I don’t think people saw this as an isolated issue. It’s more of a cause and effect. People feel that if you protect marriage, and the family and life, that is in fact the solution to many of the problems you just named.

Don’t speak for Catholics, let them speak for themselves. Your answer is certainly correct, but it does not form the essence of the Catholic objection to honmosexual marriage.

I would say a homosexual marriage is an oxymoron. It is like a square circle- such simply by definition does not exist. There is no such thing. It is a non thing.

 

[Apologist78]

This has nothing to do with protecting marriage or family. Same sex couples aren’t a threat to your marriages or families. This is just an attempt to impose your religion’s rules on everyone else. Ironically, many of the biggest advocates of measures like proposition 8 are the same ones hypocritically complaining about governmental intrusions in their lives.

Please answer me one question: Exactely HOW are they “imposing” anything on homosexuals? Exactely HOW are they talking away their rights? They have the right to marry just as much as a heterosexual does. Prop 8 DEFINES what constitutes a marriage, it does not FORBID marriage or restrict it only to heterosexuals.

So I await your response.

 

[RyanML]

The family itself forms the fabric of society. It the family itself comes under attack, or someone wants to redefine what constitutes a family, society itself is undermined, distorted and warped. A healthy society begins with a healthy family. When families are not healthy society is not healthy.

Those who support proposition eight are not meaning to discriminate against homosexuals, they are simply seeking to define what constitutes a marriage. If you think about it there is no definition given- for years it was obvious, hence no definition was necessary. Today however it is less obvious, so supporters of prop 8 are seeking a definition.

That a marriage is defined as one man and one women— if such discriminates against homosexuals, then it also discriminates against those who want polygamy- since marriage is not only defined as between a man and a women, but ONE man and ONE women. The prop does not forbid homosexuals from living together or having what they believe is a relationship. It does not forbid them from expressing what they believe is love for each other. It does not forbid them from leaving their possessions to each other, etc. It simply defines what constitutes a legal marriage. Thats it. That is all it does. One might turn the question around and ask “Why is this such a big deal to homosexuals? If they were truly comfortable with who they are, they would not care whether or not the state chooses to recognize unions between those of the same sex.”

I agree. As a gay man, I do not understand why the GLBT community needs marriage redefined to feel included. Marriage can only be between a man and a woman because that is what marriage is. You can not call a black man a white man, not because he is any less than a white man, but simply because that is not what he is. As Jimmy Akin says of gay marriage, “there aint no such thing”. But I have just as much of a problem with the other side which would pretend that the GLBT community are these horrible, disgusting monsters who want to destroy families and tear apart the moral fabric of society. In reality, most couples just want to share their lives with each other in the privacy of their relationships and live life in peace the same as everybody else. Unfortunately, it’s the worst of the GLBT community that gets all the media attention.

 

[vera_dicere]

I agree with a lot of what’s been posted already regarding the fact that the attack on the family has caused a lot of degeneration in society.

Of coruse, I also beelive that laws or attempts to push through laws that limit abortion, gay marriage et cetera are a way to give people a sense they are doing something moral. The average joe can’t do anything really to stop genocide in another nation or prevent his neighbour not raping, but he can feel morally upright by ticking a box on election day.

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

Interesting how often the people who most need to hear about defending the truth, and not compromising the truth in order to be “nice” and “politically correct” are the first to dismiss that essay. They immediately dismiss it as “pretty invalid” when they see it is talking about themselves.

Umm… what?

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

I am amazed so few are concerned. I mean failure to see the serious immorality and consequences of this agenda really says much about society and individuals.

Sorry, I just don’t see same-sex marriage as a threat-- it’s just… there. The consequences of other events are more dangerous to this society and our world. I guess my faith has been the chains that kept me from realizing that, even though I love the Hell out of it.

Heh, as I’ve always said: Ironically Yours.

 

[fix]

Sorry, I just don’t see same-sex marriage as a threat-- it’s just… there. The consequences of other events are more dangerous to this society and our world. I guess my faith has been the chains that kept me from realizing that, even though I love the Hell out of it.

Heh, as I’ve always said: Ironically Yours.

I have no idea of your point? I mean there are all types of evils in this world that need to be addressed. Do we just focus on one while the others eat away society?

If you cannot see the significance of the destruction of the family then what can anyone really say to change your mind?

I think too often we think immorality is exclusively some bodily injury we immediately see.

 

[Oscarthecat]

Sorry, I just don’t see same-sex marriage as a threat-- it’s just… there. The consequences of other events are more dangerous to this society and our world. I guess my faith has been the chains that kept me from realizing that, even though I love the Hell out of it.

Heh, as I’ve always said: Ironically Yours.

Two points:

Point ONE,
You are conflating your argument- you seem to bounce between saying two contradictory things about gay marriage, so I’m going to try to help you to clarify your position.

A. You have said that same-sex marriage isn’t a problem, and that we should not worry about it.

B. But you have also said that there are bigger problems (or more dangerous events) in the world than same-sex marriage, which reveals that you do, in fact, believe that same-sex marriage is a problem, if only a smaller problem than others the world faces.

So which is it? Either gay marriage is a problem, or it isn’t.

If it is a genuine moral problem facing the world, then you shouldn’t criticize anyone for trying to face up to it.

If you believe it isn’t a genuine moral problem, and you really feel your faith, which you say you love, has been keeping you “chained up” from realizing this, then maybe you need to work out your faith issues.

Which brings me to the next point:

Point TWO:
You might want to reconsider your use of the “chains” metaphor, because the way you use it maligns both you and the Church.

The “chains” metaphor has been used numerous times throughout Church history. Most commonly, saints have used the metaphor of “chains” to express how their faith and their love of God informed their conscience, which then bound them, like chains, to the truth of God’s revelation through the Church. That is, their love of God was like chains which bound them to God, and kept them from straying away from God through sin. Some saints were known to pray that God strengthen these “chains” to prevent them from breaking loose into a life of sin.

Your use of the “chains” metaphor is also commonly used by heretics and people who abandon God’s Church. They describe the Church as binding them from the sinful things they want to do, and thus the image of breaking these chains represents their falling away from the Church and into a life of sin.

Oddly enough, both uses of the “chains” metaphor describe EXACTLY the same faith experience- just from very different perspectives.

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

So which is it? Either gay marriage is a problem, or it isn’t.

It is not a problem, and I detest the idea that it is. I guess you can say I’m a straight supporter of gay rights, but, more generally, I’m more of a supporter of equal rights.

You might want to reconsider your use of the “chains” metaphor, because the way you use it maligns both you and the Church.

Why reconsider? I meant it.

Every religion has its moments, but they also have a dark side to them. Thankfully, the true face of the Catholic religion is generally friendlier than society gives it credit for, but that doesn’t mean the church (no capitalization intended) is. I’m not sure how to break it down for you to make it easier to understand, but that’s my reason for bringing chains into the thread.

 

[Exalt]

Sorry, I just don’t see same-sex marriage as a threat-- it’s just… there. The consequences of other events are more dangerous to this society and our world. I guess my faith has been the chains that kept me from realizing that, even though I love the Hell out of it.

Heh, as I’ve always said: Ironically Yours.

You are amazing.

Thanks being being one of the few on this forum who understand that gay marriage is no big deal, unless you’re actually gay. The sky didn’t fall in June, July, August, September, October or the first 4 days of November, and it won’t fall again when Prop 8 gets overturned. There are way better ways for Catholics to show that Jesus loves everyone besides wanting to break up families.

So thanks again.

 

[Bananaslugmom]

So where are all the peaceful protests? Where is all the talk? Is the pro-life movement working silently, or has it given up? My prayers are going out to the unborn, but prayers are not enough - a new prop needs to be introduced which will reverse prop 4. That’s my idea for a solution. It’s not the best, but that’s an idea I’ve come up with. I don’t have the resources to make such a prop, but I can definitely lend a helping hand to those who would make such a prop for the next elections (which I believe is in 2012?).

Yes we won in securing marriage and family, but we lost in securing the most fundamental right, the most fundalemtal cell of the family and marriage: life. And that should be shocking us.

The Pro-Life movement is gearing up for our biggest fight ever. Check every website that is pro-life and you will see on word over and over again ~ FOCA! Defeating FOCA is key. Fundraising is gearing up. Petitions are being started. The pro-life movement is far from silent right now. www.focafacts.com and www.fightfoca.com

As a nation and as a world, WE MUST RESTORE THE NATURAL ORDER OF FAMILY if we are to survive as a people and as a society. I highly recommend reading America Alone by Mark Steyn and The Empty Cradle by Philip Longman. Demography alone is changing the world in which we live in. Birthrates are falling all over the world due to man’s unwillingness to be open to creation.

 

[Leeta]

Homosexuals cannot marry so why are they so intent on overriding the basis of human civilization by imposing a fantasy on our society? Only a man and a woman can engage in the marital act which is the basis of the union and which can bring about a future in the form of children.

A same sex marital union cannot exist. And the union they do engage in is absolutely disgusting, harmful and leads to ill health and is not self-giving, nor holy. All people of good will, not just Christians, can see the truth of the human person written into our very being. Marriage predates all religion!!

The human race is facing a demographic winter and homosexual pretend unions are contributing to this by really distracting a lot of people from their vocations to be mothers and fathers in the total self -giving union of marriage.

How sad that little children are to be abused by being raised in homosexual households and to be indoctrinated with fantasies in school!

It is sick that a fantasy instead of truth is mandated in schools about the basic nature of men and women! All the books will now be censored in Massachusetts in order not to disturb this fantasy.

Truth is worth dying for and it is certainly worth voting for it!!

 

[TexCatholic4JMJ]

Homosexuals cannot marry so why are they so intent on overriding the basis of human civilization by imposing a fantasy on our society? Only a man and a woman can engage in the marital act which is the basis of the union and which can bring about a future in the form of children.

A same sex marital union cannot exist. And the union they do engage in is absolutely disgusting, harmful and leads to ill health and is not self-giving, nor holy. All people of good will, not just Christians, can see the truth of the human person written into our very being. Marriage predates all religion!!

The human race is facing a demographic winter and homosexual pretend unions are contributing to this by really distracting a lot of people from their vocations to be mothers and fathers in the total self -giving union of marriage.

How sad that little children are to be abused by being raised in homosexual households and to be indoctrinated with fantasies in school!

It is sick that a fantasy instead of truth is mandated in schools about the basic nature of men and women! All the books will now be censored in Massachusetts in order not to disturb this fantasy.

Truth is worth dying for and it is certainly worth voting for it!!

Thank you for expressing what many believe.

 

[RyanML]

Homosexuals cannot marry so why are they so intent on overriding the basis of human civilization by imposing a fantasy on our society? Only a man and a woman can engage in the marital act which is the basis of the union and which can bring about a future in the form of children.

A same sex marital union cannot exist. And the union they do engage in is absolutely disgusting, harmful and leads to ill health and is not self-giving, nor holy. All people of good will, not just Christians, can see the truth of the human person written into our very being. Marriage predates all religion!!

The human race is facing a demographic winter and homosexual pretend unions are contributing to this by really distracting a lot of people from their vocations to be mothers and fathers in the total self -giving union of marriage.

How sad that little children are to be abused by being raised in homosexual households and to be indoctrinated with fantasies in school!

It is sick that a fantasy instead of truth is mandated in schools about the basic nature of men and women! All the books will now be censored in Massachusetts in order not to disturb this fantasy.

Truth is worth dying for and it is certainly worth voting for it!!

I am sorry, but it is ideas like these that are fantasy. I can understand your disagreement with the mainstream GLBT community on the issue of marriage, but using gay folks as a scapegoat for all of societies woes is quite malicious. Perhaps you should not comment on things you really know nothing about.

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

You are amazing.

Thanks being being one of the few on this forum who understand that gay marriage is no big deal, unless you’re actually gay. The sky didn’t fall in June, July, August, September, October or the first 4 days of November, and it won’t fall again when Prop 8 gets overturned. There are way better ways for Catholics to show that Jesus loves everyone besides wanting to break up families.

So thanks again.

You are very welcome. It’s only fair.

Ironically Yours.

 

[Don3232]

Religion puts a leash around your neck? My faith has liberated me.

 

[RobbyS]

This has nothing to do with protecting marriage or family. Same sex couples aren’t a threat to your marriages or families. This is just an attempt to impose your religion’s rules on everyone else. Ironically, many of the biggest advocates of measures like proposition 8 are the same ones hypocritically complaining about governmental intrusions in their lives.

Proposition 8 is simply an attempt to imbed in the state constitution what has long been law. Family structure is already undermined by permissive divorce laws, and adoption practices that go against the common understanding of what is good for kids. Marriage has becoming hardly more than a wedding and honeymoon, and many people have no intent to remain together for much longer than these occasions. The gay lifestyle does not value long or limited commitment, because it is essentially libertine. Therefore, for many of us, a gay marriage simply mocks a real one.

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

I am sorry, but it is ideas like these that are fantasy. I can understand your disagreement with the mainstream GLBT community on the issue of marriage, but using gay folks as a scapegoat for all of societies woes is quite malicious. Perhaps you should not comment on things you really know nothing about.

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

Religion puts a leash around your neck? My faith has liberated me.

Spiritually, it is liberating.

But when it comes to evolving as a society, environmentally and “technologically” (if that’s even a word), it slows us down.