Prophets after Jesus

[Dialogues]

I don’t agree with that part about Muhammad and the Koran

It is mentioned in the Qur’an 4:69.

Hwoever, all Bahais are indeed obedient to Muhammad and follow the Koran.

Bahai’s believe the bayan and then al aqdas superceeded the Qur’an.

Bahaullah was also a follower of Muhammad and the Koran (he actually agreed with all Muslims that these were messengers/messages from God after Jesus that supercede the teachings of Jesus)

The Qur’an states that religion has been perfected by Islam [5:3]. Thus there is no room for further perfection. Only followers of Islam can become prophets, and this is within Islam, not a new religion.

Peace.

 

[Dialogues]

Dialogues,

Baha’u’llah explains the relationship between the Manifestation and God here if you are interested and have questions about it:

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-22.html

The ref you gave has the following excerpt:

*Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. *

None of the prophets is known to have ever made such a declaration. It is a declaration which is in clear violation of basic scriptural and prophetic teachings. There is only one God, who has no partners.

Peace.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Well first of all, He proved beyond a shadow of a doubt to thousands upon thousands of devout, high and low status Muslims, that He was Divine in nature. Remember, this is to Muslims, who deny ANY DIVINITY in a human frame.

Then, once that certitude has been established that He is, indeed Divine, all His Words become Truth.

He claims He is the return of Jesus, so be it. There’s a reason why people gave up their lives to shelter themselves beneath the fountains of grace He showered upon all.



.

He proved it? by He I assume you mean Ali Hussain? How did he prove it? By moving you emotionally with his teachings or his claimed sense of moral superiority? That’s not proof of anything.

Now you once again claim he is the return of Jesus, but I will simply ask why I should that statement seriously when you can’t define what it means for him to be Jesus. We have tried to get you and other bahai to define this in the past and while I have an idea of what you mean it seems another bahai comes along and shatters how it is understood.

Is Jesus literally Ali Hussain in person? Bahai neither deny nor confirm this. Is he back in the same spirit of Jesus? If so how is it manifested he came back in the spirit of Jesus? What does it mean for him to be back in the spirit of Jesus? I don’t expect you to give an answer but this is a problem for you.

 

[openmind77]

It is mentioned in the Qur’an 4:69.

Bahai’s believe the bayan and then al aqdas superceeded the Qur’an.

The Qur’an states that religion has been perfected by Islam [5:3]. Thus there is no room for further perfection. Only followers of Islam can become prophets, and this is within Islam, not a new religion.

Peace.

I think they believe that the bayan is an extension of the Koran and they accept everything in Koran - but I may be wrong.

In any case, you can not seriously think of the Koran as perfect? Just think of the description of paradise - those rivers of wine and honey, those virgins and houris - you can not take these things seriously - these descriptions are for children, maybe teens.

But regardless, Prophets can be born anywhere is the world, in any religion - Islam does not have any monopoly.

 

[Dialogues]

I think they believe that the bayan is an extension of the Koran and they accept everything in Koran - but I may be wrong.

The Qur’an contradicts their teachings.

In any case, you can not seriously think of the Koran as perfect? Just think of the description of paradise - those rivers of wine and honey, those virgins and houris - you can not take these things seriously - these descriptions are for children, maybe teens.

The Qur’an itself states that the descriptions of paradise are an illustration, allegorical; that the rewards of paradise are such as no one has seen before.

But regardless, Prophets can be born anywhere is the world, in any religion - Islam does not have any monopoly.

The Qur’an states that prophets were sent to various people. Hence I accept Buddha a.s. and Krishna a.s. and Zoroaster a.s. to be prophets. However, wherever any other prophet is to be born, of whatever race, he would have to be a Muslim, because the Qur’an is the final scripture and Islam the final religion. Hence I don’t consider joseph smith to be a prophet, nor do I consider mirza hussain ali to be God.

Peace.

 

[openmind77]

The Qur’an contradicts their teachings.

The Qur’an itself states that the descriptions of paradise are an illustration, allegorical; that the rewards of paradise are such as no one has seen before.

The Qur’an states that prophets were sent to various people. Hence I accept Buddha a.s. and Krishna a.s. and Zoroaster a.s. to be prophets. However, wherever any other prophet is to be born, of whatever race, he would have to be a Muslim, because the Qur’an is the final scripture and Islam the final religion. Hence I don’t consider joseph smith to be a prophet, nor do I consider mirza hussain ali to be God.

Peace.

Here is a Islamic video on Jannah - islamreligion.com/videos/2640/ . Nothing allegorical here, everything is literal - so the allegorical view is not universally accepted.

So are you saying that when Jesus Returns he will come as a Muslim ? (leaving aside both you guys belief that his Spirit has already returned).

Anyway, I am sorry to say that, in my opinion, the Koran, however holy it may be (and I do believe it is), does not come even close to matching the profundity of Jesus’s teachings. The next Prophet has the difficult task of out-doing that - but humanity has so much more to learn - I don’t think it is an impossible task.

 

[daler]

Can you give me an example where any of the prophets clearly claimed ‘I am God’ as Mirza Hussain Ali so clearly did? He clearly claimed divinity rather than prophethood.

Prophets can be likened to one another to a degree. We are not to discriminate between prophets as far as belief in them is concerned, but they were sent to different people and their messages had some differences in details to suit their people and their time.

Peace.

Dialogues,
In several religions the phrase: “I am the Alpha and the Omega” appear, in similar wording. The Old Testament is full of references of God speaking through the Prophets, saying: “I am God”. They appear to be conduits of His speaking to humanity.

As such a conduit for the Voice of God, consider carefully what Baha’u’llah Himself says:

“When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth me to Thee, I am moved to proclaim to all created things “verily I am God”; and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!”

 

[daler]

I think they believe that the bayan is an extension of the Koran and they accept everything in Koran - but I may be wrong.

In any case, you can not seriously think of the Koran as perfect? Just think of the description of paradise - those rivers of wine and honey, those virgins and houris - you can not take these things seriously - these descriptions are for children, maybe teens.

But regardless, Prophets can be born anywhere is the world, in any religion - Islam does not have any monopoly.

openmind,
I’ve been gone for awhile and just got back into CAF in the past week. Good to see you still here adding insightful comments.

We recently had 3 days of solid rains here in southern California - badly needed rain. Anyway, the analogy comes to mind that each day brought new rain and one could argue which cloud was bringing which rain, like this cloud is called Moses, or that one Jesus, or here is one called Muhammad, and I suppose someone could just put a big umbrella over their cornfield and say: “I will not accept any rain from that cloud!!!”

To Baha’is, all of these clouds of revelation come from God. In that sense, the Gospels are a continuation of the Torah, and the Quran is a continuation of the Gospel, and the Bayan a continuation of the Quran, and the Revelation of Baha’u’llah continues to bring us rain, from the same sky all the other Revelations of God came from, and in a thousand years or more another cloud will surely bring rain.

Is it the same rain? It is to me. I grew up on a farm, and when your fields are dry and the crops are wilting, you pray for rain, and you don’t cuss out this cloud or that for not looking exactly like the cloud you saw yesterday. Instead, you just appreciate the rain and thank God for it…

 

[Dialogues]

Here is a Islamic video on Jannah - islamreligion.com/videos/2640/ . Nothing allegorical here, everything is literal - so the allegorical view is not universally accepted.

There are many relevant verses, but this one should suffice to show that the rewards of paradise are not the same as those in this world:

[32:17] And no soul knows what joy of the eyes is kept hidden for them, as a reward for their good works.

The video presentation is from someone who was salafi at the time he gave that lecture. They are literalists.

So are you saying that when Jesus Returns he will come as a Muslim ? (leaving aside both you guys belief that his Spirit has already returned).

I believe a Muslim has come in his place - someone ‘like’ him in some ways.

Anyway, I am sorry to say that, in my opinion, the Koran, however holy it may be (and I do believe it is), does not come even close to matching the profundity of Jesus’s teachings.

What teachings do you refer to exactly?

Peace.

 

[Dialogues]

The Old Testament is full of references of God speaking through the Prophets, saying: “I am God”. They appear to be conduits of His speaking to humanity.

Give me a few of these references.

Peace.

 

[daler]

Give me a few of these references.

Peace.

Sure.

Isaiah 51:15 “But I am the Lord thy God, that divided the sea, whose waves roared: The Lord of Hosts is His name.”

Exodus 20:3 “You shall have no other gods before me.”

Hosea 13:4 “But I have been the LORD your God ever since you came out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior except me.”

Psalm 46:10 “Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.”

. . . So does this mean that the Prophet Who is speaking these Words from God is God? I never took it that way, nor do I take it to mean that Baha’u’llah, the person, is God.
But when God speaks to us, it is through His Prophets, and sometimes He says to us: “I am God”

In the Bhagavad Gita, Lord Krsna says: “Of all creations I am the beginning and the end and also the middle, O Arjuna”

Revelation 22:13 “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.”

. . . So in each case, I take this to mean that God is speaking to us through His Mouthpiece, or Manifestation, not that the Manifestation or Apostle is Himself God.
Yet, as Baha’u’llah says, if the Manifestation of God says: “I am God”, He is speaking the truth, for God is saying that, and His Voice doesn’t come out of nowhere, like the clouds or something. And, as He explains, were the Manifestation to say, “I am not God”, He speaks the truth.
. So I think it requires some understanding of the human vehicle which is the means by which God speaks to us, and that human vehicle is not God, even though through the mouth of the Prophet God may say: “I am the Lord your God.”

. Hope this helps, and again, thank you for your continued dialogue

 

[Dialogues]

Hi,

The problem is that the claims of Mirza Hussain Ali are not just as an apparent ‘mouthpiece’. For example:

He writes in Aqdas, page 144 “Accept whatever is commanded by Baha (i.e. himself) the Lord of Eternity”.

In Istadaaraat, page 34, he writes, “The Master of Eternity lies in prison”.

In his Al-Mubeen, page 34, he writes “All praise is for you O Bahaullah, the Creator of existence”.

In the same book, page 190, he says, "Obey the commands of your Elevated, Splendorous God, Bahaullah.

Again in Al-Mubeen, page 297, he again refers to himself as, “You Most beneficent Lord, Bahaullah”,

Moreover, Abdul Baha writes in Badaaiul Aasaar, page 139, ‘Bahaullah’ is unique, Incomparable. It is necessary for everyone to turn towards Bahaullah in his prayers.

In Maftoon, page 15, ‘Bahaullah’ writes to his son Abdul Baha, “This is a letter from Allah, the Honoured and the Wise (Bahaullah) to Allah the Gracious, the Aware (Abdul Baha).”

In the last quote, both father and son are referred to as Allah!

None of the above quotes can be seen as statements coming from a ‘mouthpiece’ as you assert.

Peace.

 

[openmind77]

There are many relevant verses, but this one should suffice to show that the rewards of paradise are not the same as those in this world:

[32:17] And no soul knows what joy of the eyes is kept hidden for them, as a reward for their good works.

The video presentation is from someone who was salafi at the time he gave that lecture. They are literalists.

I believe a Muslim has come in his place - someone ‘like’ him in some ways.

What teachings do you refer to exactly?

Peace.

That’s what I meant, I think more Muslims take things literally than don’t

I don’t think Jesus will come back as a Muslim, he will return as a Christian (and he has not come back yet, physically or in Spirit)

I am talking about all of Jesus’s teachings. If you take all Jesus’s own words from the NT and put them is a book, they are worth many times more than what you can get out of the Koran (or take the Sermon on the Mount alone - there is nothing in the Koran to match it).

However, the next Prophet or the Christ when he Returns will supercede both the Koran and the Bible - I expect that to happen pretty soon - maybe 2-3 years)

 

[Servant19]

Hi,

The problem is that the claims of Mirza Hussain Ali are not just as an apparent ‘mouthpiece’. For example:

He writes in Aqdas, page 144 “Accept whatever is commanded by Baha (i.e. himself) the Lord of Eternity”.

In Istadaaraat, page 34, he writes, “The Master of Eternity lies in prison”.

In his Al-Mubeen, page 34, he writes “All praise is for you O Bahaullah, the Creator of existence”.

In the same book, page 190, he says, "Obey the commands of your Elevated, Splendorous God, Bahaullah.

Again in Al-Mubeen, page 297, he again refers to himself as, “You Most beneficent Lord, Bahaullah”,

Moreover, Abdul Baha writes in Badaaiul Aasaar, page 139, ‘Bahaullah’ is unique, Incomparable. It is necessary for everyone to turn towards Bahaullah in his prayers.

In Maftoon, page 15, ‘Bahaullah’ writes to his son Abdul Baha, “This is a letter from Allah, the Honoured and the Wise (Bahaullah) to Allah the Gracious, the Aware (Abdul Baha).”

In the last quote, both father and son are referred to as Allah!

None of the above quotes can be seen as statements coming from a ‘mouthpiece’ as you assert.

Peace.

Dialogues,

You have a poor grasp of the qualities of the World of the Kingdom, and the World of God.

Please, for your own sanity, read this:

bahai-library.org/books/quest/quest.03.html

If any questions arise after, AFTER, you read this please ask

.

 

[daler]

Hi,

The problem is that the claims of Mirza Hussain Ali are not just as an apparent ‘mouthpiece’. For example:

He writes in Aqdas, page 144 “Accept whatever is commanded by Baha (i.e. himself) the Lord of Eternity”.

In Istadaaraat, page 34, he writes, “The Master of Eternity lies in prison”.

In his Al-Mubeen, page 34, he writes “All praise is for you O Bahaullah, the Creator of existence”.

In the same book, page 190, he says, "Obey the commands of your Elevated, Splendorous God, Bahaullah.

Again in Al-Mubeen, page 297, he again refers to himself as, “You Most beneficent Lord, Bahaullah”,

Moreover, Abdul Baha writes in Badaaiul Aasaar, page 139, ‘Bahaullah’ is unique, Incomparable. It is necessary for everyone to turn towards Bahaullah in his prayers.

In Maftoon, page 15, ‘Bahaullah’ writes to his son Abdul Baha, “This is a letter from Allah, the Honoured and the Wise (Bahaullah) to Allah the Gracious, the Aware (Abdul Baha).”

In the last quote, both father and son are referred to as Allah!

None of the above quotes can be seen as statements coming from a ‘mouthpiece’ as you assert.

Peace.

dialogues,
. I see the difficulties you present from your perspective and the references you use. It is true that at various times the “station” of the Manifestation of God is itself a challenge, and perhaps particularly Baha’u’llah as the “Sender of the Messengers”, Who identifies Himself with the Voice which spoke to Moses from the Burning Bush, etc.

. There are verses from the Quran which refer to the Day of Judgement, when mankind will stand before God. Bahai’s believe that this is that Day, and that, as it is impossible to stand before the Invisible Essence of God, which cannot be incarnated or embodied in any way, that what is meant is the appearance of the Supreme Manifestation of God. There are many prophecies, such as the two Trumpet Blasts, which must take some “form” or appearance in the world, and that these are in fact the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

. In the Bible, the three Woes are interpreted as Muhammad, the Bab, and Baha’u’llah, the latter two being referred to in the phrase, “Lo! The third Woe cometh quickly”, as the Bab was followed shortly by Baha’u’llah.

. I don’t know as you want to get into such things as the 1260 prophecy of the Bible, or any of that, but the whole Adventist Movement centered around 1844, which “happens” to be the year 1260 AH. I don’t mean to avoid your comments or go off topic, and I don’t want to get into pulling out quotes and that sort of thing.

. As to Abdul Baha, He specifically does not identify Himself as a Manifestation of God, such as Jesus, Muhammad, or Baha’u’llah. His Station as the Center of the Covenant of the Baha’i Faith was conferred upon Him to prevent the schisms associated with all the previous religions. I know that in the Quran Muhammad forbid schisms, yet upon the very day of His death, this already occurred, sadly.

. I think as best as I can relate to you of my limited understanding of the “Uniqueness” of Baha’u’llah is that He ushers in the stage of fulfillment of all the previous Manifestations of God Who alluded to this Day. “The Prophetic Cycle hath, verily, ended.”

 

[Dialogues]

Dialogues,

You have a poor grasp of the qualities of the World of the Kingdom, and the World of God.

Please, for your own sanity, read this:

bahai-library.org/books/quest/quest.03.html

If any questions arise after, AFTER, you read this please ask

You try to insult me and then send me on a wild goose chase to read a lengthy article?

If you have an answer to those quotes, then present them here. The previous response did not suffice.

Peace.

 

[Dialogues]

… and perhaps particularly Baha’u’llah as the “Sender of the Messengers”, Who identifies Himself with the Voice which spoke to Moses from the Burning Bush, etc.

The Qur’an clearly states it was Allah speaking to Moses a.s., not a 19th century human who used to eat food to survive.

I know that in the Quran Muhammad forbid schisms, yet upon the very day of His death, this already occurred, sadly.

I had thought Bahai’s realised that the Holy Qur’an isn’t the word of the Holy Prophet Muhammad s.a., but that of Allah the Most Forgiving; and no schism occurred on the day he passed away.

I think as best as I can relate to you of my limited understanding of the “Uniqueness” of Baha’u’llah …

You seem to refer to the ‘manifestation of shirrk’ in his writings as a ‘uniqueness’ of which you have a ‘limited understanding’ because no true prophet ever gave such teachings. Why associate partners with Allah like Christians do?

Peace.

 

[Dialogues]

I don’t think Jesus will come back as a Muslim, he will return as a Christian (and he has not come back yet, physically or in Spirit)

The last time someone [Elijah] was prophecied to come back, someone else [John the Baptist] is said to have come in his place, according to Jesus.

I am talking about all of Jesus’s teachings. If you take all Jesus’s own words from the NT and put them is a book, they are worth many times more than what you can get out of the Koran (or take the Sermon on the Mount alone - there is nothing in the Koran to match it).

Mention the most amazing teaching of Jesus that you know of, and we will see what the Qur’an says about it for comparison.

However, the next Prophet or the Christ when he Returns will supercede both the Koran and the Bible - I expect that to happen pretty soon - maybe 2-3 years)

Why do you say ‘maybe 2-3 years’?

Peace.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Dialogues;11785410]The last time someone [Elijah] was prophecied to come back, someone else [John the Baptist] is said to have come in his place, according to Jesus

.

You under estimate the power of God; Both Elijah and Moses did come. Luke 9:29…the appearance of his countenance was altered, and his raiment became dazzling white. 30 and behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem…32 Now Peter and those who were with him…they saw his glory and the two men who stood with him

God is the God of the living not of the dead. Jesus revealed to Israel that the spirit of Elijah did come and announced his coming.

Elijah and Moses appeared before Jesus disciples who give the eyewitness account.

Which is more real the flesh which returns to dust, or the Spirit which is eternal.

Your theology is grounded in carnal knowledge of the flesh that dies with it. Where as Jesus reveals the eternal reality of the Spirit that never dies.

Your assumption is a contradiction to your own belief system.

Mention the most amazing teaching of Jesus that you know of, and we will see what the Qur’an says about it for comparison.

Jesus loved His enemies to His death, and never hated or killed anyone and was found to be without sin.

Does your Quran teach the virtue of God, as Jesus practiced and taught to love your enemy? With this teaching Jesus taught; do not judge others, less God judge you for your judgement

Jesus was born of a virgin, who remained a virgin before, during and after giving birth to Jesus Christ. Saved the world from eternal damnation in himself.

Since when does the Quran give testimony of God? When only God can give testimony of God. You don’t make the false claim that Muhammad was divine in order to give testimony of God do you?

Do you know if the baptism of John was from heaven or from men?

If your Quran is of God? does it answers Jesus question? “How can they say the Christ is David’s son? For David himself says in the Book of Psalms, “The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, till I make thy enemies a stool for thy feet>” David thus calls him Lord: so how is he his son?”

Does your Quran know the answer to Jesus teaching that He is the Lord God.

Peace be with you

 

[Dialogues]

Peace.

You under estimate the power of God; Both Elijah and Moses did come. … God is the God of the living not of the dead. Jesus revealed to Israel that the spirit of Elijah did come and announced his coming.

Elijah may be said to have ascended to the heavens, but Moses is supposed to be dead according to the Bible. Hence, this could only have been a vision, a spiritual phenomenon, not a physical one. Muslims saints have had such experiences, which are described as kashf or kushuf [pl].

In any case, by suggesting the prophecy of the return of Elijah was fulfilled in the transfiguration described in Luke 9, you reject Jesus’s explanation of how the prophecy was actually fulfilled in the person of John the Baptist.

Elijah and Moses appeared before Jesus disciples who give the eyewitness account.

Such visions [kushuf] can at times be shared by onlookers as well.

Which is more real the flesh which returns to dust, or the Spirit which is eternal.

If you refer to the human spirit, then I believe it develops along with the body in the fetus, so it is not eternal. However, I agree it is the soul/spirit which will live in the afterlife, not the body.

Your assumption is a contradiction to your own belief system.

How so?

Peace.