I have no idea whatsoever how providing a link to a few pages of an online book is insulting??
Muslims also did not fight their enemies for 13 years in Mecca and endured continuous persecution and murder, siege and starvation, and instead prayed for their enemies. And the Qur’an talks about what had become the Muslim character thus:
Read Matthew 23 for the harsh judgement Jesus delivers against the Pharisees etc. Why didn’t he show his unconditional love for them?
I never said it was the link which was insulting. It’s what you wrote before giving the link.I have no idea whatsoever how providing a link to a few pages of an online book is insulting??
Okay, no problem.
Quote the relevant portion here. It is a simple question, which doesn’t require such a lengthy response.
If you cannot provide a concise enough answer here, why indeed are ‘you’ here?If you are not earnestly seeking an answer, why are you here?
And you too, Ameen.
Hi Dialogues,
First of all Jesus taught and practiced to love your enemy.
Now you contradict Jesus here. Jesus never delivers a harsh judgement to anyone. Jesus corrects the blind Pharisee teaching of denying the resurrection. You decieve yourself into thinking Jesus passes judgement. When Jesus came not to judge anyone, but to save us.
The Pharisee believed as you do according to the letter and those things that are physically tangible and reject the Oral Traditions of the Prophets, which reveals the eternal realities of God in Spiritual terms described from the Spirit.
Really; how can it be a vision, when there were three living witnesses to seeing Elijah and Moses conversing with their master Jesus? Four different witnesses cannot have the same vision. But four living witnesses can see a real living event made present by God himself who spoke from the heavens to declare “Listen to him” (Jesus).
Were Muslim saints transfigured and ever visited by any of the prophets in heaven confirmed by God’s voice, with multiple witnesses who saw the same vision from a far to give testimony of such an event?
Do not twist your own words. You declared Elijah never showed up when Jesus walked the earth. He did. I never make the false assumption that Elijah’s physically showed contradicts the prophecy of Elijah coming in the Spirit of John.
If on lookers are present seeing the same mystical event, then it is never a vision or phenomenon as you falsely suggested the Transfiguration. When it is a physical appearance made possible by God who declares the event by confirmation, to living on lookers then it is not a vision but an eternal reality made present, by the power of God.
When God sends his prophets, does God send them in the Spirit or in the Flesh? If you believe both. Then Elijah did come and you prove yourself wrong?**
Did he practice what he preached? Was he ever in the position to show such love to enemies, by actually forgiving them instead of punishing them? The practical and noble act of forgiveness of bloodthirsty enemies at the conquest of Mecca, when the Holy Prophet s.a. had the power to punish them at his disposal, has no comparison. They say actions speak louder than words.
The Holy Prophet s.a. followed the teachings of the Holy Qur’an, such as this verse:
You misrepresent Islam. Perhaps you simply don’t realise this. That is not the correct so-called battle cry in the first place. It was convert, jizya or fight, and it is operative when others have initiated the fight, and deserve to be fought against.
Both the Jews and pagan Romans judged, tortured and applied 10 deaths of crucifixion to Jesus and from the cross in his dieing breath prayed for them, “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do”.
Your problem is when Muhammad threatened war or was threatened by resistance, acted by blood shed. Like you said; Actions speak louder than words.
The witness by both first century Jews and Gentiles who were present prove you wrong. Jesus had the power to call down angels from heaven to destroy all who threatened his life, including keepping his disciple Peter to put down his sword when they arrested Jesus. Oh, Yes Jesus perfected his divine teaching of loving his enemies. We know this because many many Christian saints went to their deaths proclaiming the forgiveness for their enemies, Beginning with St.Stephen recorded in the book of Acts when the Jews stoned him to death, St.Stephen prayed for God to forgive them, just as his Master Jesus taught him.
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And the Prophet Muhammad s.a. prevented the angel from punishing the people of Ta’if who had nearly stoned him to death, and desired not just their forgiveness, but also their right guidance. But both prophets were themselves in a helpless and powerless position at the time. The perfection of forgiveness is when one has the actual power to punish and yet pardons. And this perfection is exemplified in the actions of the Prophet Muhammad s.a., but absent from those of Jesus a.s.
You could only really claim this IF he had the power to judge and punish, and still refrained from using it. Otherwise, it remains just a claim.
War was imposed on Muslims. The people of Mecca had already declared war in writing to the pagans and jews of Medina. When did the Prophet Muhammad s.a. ever threaten war that was not initiated by others?
The enemies were hell-bent at the time on depriving Muslims their right of freedom of belief, and hell-bent on murdering Muslims. At that time Muslims did not have the power to overcome them, so Muslims were forced to fight back to protect themselves, as the following verses state:
And so did Prophet Muhammad s.a., as illustrated after the people of Taif nearly murdered him in cold blood.
It was foolishness on the part of Peter to challenge the authorities who had more power anyway, and Jesus was quite wise and practical to forbid him.
And Muslim saints and scholars have also forgiven their enemies.
So he had no teaching for those in authority, no wisdom for them to benefit from, hence Christians in authority had to enact laws borrowing ideas from other than Jesus. This is not something to boast about my friend.
It appears the Seljuk Turks who had come to power were guilty of some wrongs, and ceased to follow the practice of those Muslims before them. Muslims had refused to follow the advice of the Christian priest who told Muslims not to allow Jews to settle in Jerusalem for example, and non-Muslims had been living in peace and security under Muslim rule; until the Seljuks came to power. So, if it is indeed true, as it appears to be, I condemn that act of the Seljuks, who were fairly new converts to Islam themselves and lacked the wisdom of the teachings.
Then explain these words of Jesus:
There are stated conditions and rules for fighting, some of which I have already quoted above, including the verse about inclining towards peace. Muslims are not to be the initiators of conflict, and when Muslims have the absolute power to punish or forgive, the example of the Holy Prophet Muhammad s.a. was to nobly pardon his longstanding enemies. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful, as many verses declare, and the three choices given to those who had initiated war also demonstrates the mercy of Allah, in that they are to be pardoned their wrongs and injustices, their murder and bloodshed, if they accept Islam or even just accept Muslim rule.
Joseph a.s. loved his brothers and forgave them despite some of them wanting to kill him at one point. It is a noble example of forgiveness recorded in the OT as well as in the Qur’an. And the Prophet Muhammad s.a. also forgave those who had also tried to murder him, most of whom were not related to him as directly as Joseph was to his own flesh and blood brothers. So, the forgiveness of the Prophet Muhammad s.a. was a perfection of the forgiveness shown by Joseph a.s. to his own blood-brothers. Are you telling me that Jesus showed such manifest love to his Jewish as well as non-Jewish foes?
Firstly, try to make a distinction between Qur’an and Ahadith, one being Scripture, the other non-scripture. The rule is that if there is a hadith which contradicts the Qur’an, the Word of God, that hadith is to be discarded. The Qur’an is clear in numerous verses that truth and honesty are virtues. For example:
Here is one verse:
Arab Muslims showed mercy, for example, to the people of the lands they took over from the Byzantine, and they were preferred to the Byzantines. There is an instance on record that Muslims who had taken jizya [polltax] from the citizens of one such place, returned the jizya to them because they were no longer able to safeguard them and had to leave. Those people had tears in their eyes and begged Muslims to return.
I have already shown you it is a teaching in the Qur’an, and a practice of the Holy Prophet Muhammad s.a., but it is to be exercised with wisdom and not blindly.
The Qur’an teaches love for people and praying for their right guidance, as the Prophet Muhammad s.a. did, but hatred for wrong deeds. This is illustrated in the example of Prophet Lot, who is reported to have said to his homosexual people:
He ‘insulted’ them again and again and again. Was that not ‘judgement’? And he was slapped for allegedly showing ‘disrespect’ to the high priest. And what about turning over the tables in the temple? Was he not ‘judging’ people? If anyone does that these days, the police would get involved.
Just a quick intervention here Gabriel, if I may. Heaven, according to Catholicism is not a physical reality. If someone was to come down from heaven, it is only a “spiritual reality”, and can only be “seen” with spiritual eyes, not physical ones
Dialogues,
Exactly.
Even if for arguments sake, we were to accept that statement as an accurate portrayal of what Jesus actually stated, the simple point is that God had in His knowledge the existence of all the prophets before Abraham a.s. walked the earth in his time. For God is All-Knowing.
You are trying to introduce an even stranger claim on the basis of an ambiguous passage, which may not have been correctly reported in the first place, being in any case not the actual words of Jesus himself in his own language.
That’s another strange interpretation, of a passage which clearly denies the physical death of Jesus a.s. on the cross.
This is a whole other ‘sunni-shia’ discussion. Can you try to explain why Ali r.a. himself chose to cooperate and work under the three Khalifas who preceded him - albeit after a reported initial delay in the case of the first Khalifa? Why did Ali r.a. reject his own supposed position of authority?
Then you reject the verse 24:55 which states that Allah will Himself appoints Khalifas under certain conditions.
The Christians claim the same.
It would be beneficial to interfaith relations if dialogue was encouraged rather than blanketed out by simply stating facts about others falsehoods.