Pros and Cons of Mormonism

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Cons

  1. *]Mormonism is not really a Christian religion.
    *]Mormons think they can become gods.
    *]There is absolutely zero linguistic, archaeological or historical support for anything claimed in the Book of Mormon and other LDS documents.
    *]Enjoyment of all that the community has to offer you socially and spiritually is contingent on you receiving a spiritual witness that the Church is true.
    *]They deny almost every line of the Apostle’s Creed.
    *]There is absolutely no archaeological or historical evidence to back up anything that Joseph Smith ever uttered or wrote down.
    *]Joseph Smith was likely a conman who used a self-made papacy to garner power and sexual conquest.
    *]Racism is the prevalent attitude among LDS.
    *]There are cases in which people who depart from the church lose all their friendships.
    *]The Mormons require 10% of your money to enter the LDS Temple. If you don’t pay them the 10% you aren’t allowed to attend your children’s weddings or any other weddings in the temple for that matter.
    *]If you don’t pay them their 10% they claim you will not make it into heaven so essentially you are paying for salvation.
    *]The problem with Mormonism is the simple fact that it is pseudo-christian if that and it is polytheistic in nature.
    *]Mormons are no different from the Jehovah’s Witnesses in how they warp the bible.
    *]The amount of control over your life that you must cede to LDS leaders is great: You are told how and when to serve.
    *]Your compliance with LDS rules will be monitored and your ability to participate in various functions will be affected. (If you don’t show that you meet the criteria you will not be allowed in the temple for example.)
    *]There is absolutely no accounting for tithing money: It goes to Salt Lake City and is spent without letting members know where it goes.
    *]Joseph’s vision seems to be weighted above Jesus’ words.
    *]The continued revelation is at times historically contradictory.
    *]-]Divorce is encouraged if your partner leaves the LDS faith/-].
    *]Fallibility in moral character is allowable for prophets, for all have sinned. Fallibility in doctrinal utterances is inallowable. True prophets cannot utter false doctrine and remain prophets.
    *]Consider Brigham Young: He pronounced many false doctrines. If prophets can mistake speculation for doctrine, then how can they be trusted?
    *]While they oppose most abortions, Mormons don’t believe in the sanctity of life of the unborn.
    *]The one, single, only and perfect reason to irrefutably, undeniably and totally reject mormonism can be summed up in the two most profound words: Holy Eucharist.
    *]LDS teachings are being disproven by science (for example, DNA evidence shows no Isrealite ancestory in Native Americans).
    *]They ban alcohol and caffine.
    *]At one time, they taught that men can marry more than one woman.
    *]Some Mormons are not nice.
    *]Mormonism is extremely ethnocentric.
    *]Joseph Smith was a fraud. For example, he received revelations and compiled the Book of Commandments, but they were later changed in the Doctrine and Covenants.
    *]Mormons are not allowed to pray to Jesus or to the Holy Ghost, nor are they permitted to worship them.
    *]If you are mormon, if/when you marry that perfect mormon mate, in a mormon temple, none of your non-mormon family will be allowed to attend your wedding ceremony.
    *]The mormon church sets your grooming standard and fashion selection.
    *]You can confidently claim anything (great apostasy; mark of cain; plural marriage; eternal progression; baptism of the dead; many gods and goddesses) without worrying about PROVING it, because mormons are the “the true church.”
    *]You can “retranslate” your “scripture” (the BoM and other soporific tomes) into “better” English as your theology changes.
    *]Every man a priest, every man a god. Need I say more?
    *]Women are beholden to menfolk (we mormons rule planets!)
    *]Apparently the belief is that God is falable.
    *]Mormon prophets had difficulties with ancient Egyptian.
    *]The Book of Mormon is a fraud, as Native Americans come from Asia, not Israel, and there are no Lamanites.
    *]There is not enough focus on Jesus Christ, and far too much focus on the Church being true, the BOM and LDS prophets being “true”.
    *]The goal of going to the temple to have your family sealed to you for eternity, and staying worthy enough to be able to do so. These things are emphasized and talked about far more than Jesus Christ is.
    *]It is a “blessings-for-me” theology and mentality. I pay my tithe, and I am given entrance to the temple. I think this puts too much focus on doing things, and even giving charitable donations for purposes of self rather than on simply helping those in need.
    *]The doctrine that God was once a man just like any other man; who lived on an earth and progressed to Godhood. This is in direct conflict with what God has said of himself. He said he is Eternally God. The Great I AM. He Who Is. Without beginning or end.
    *]You can believe Jesus or you can believe Joseph Smith. The contradiction is too great to believe them both.
    *]The Mormon “welfare system” helps only their own.
    *]Mormons do not consider the HS to be a person, or a member of the Trinity, but an “it”.
    *]Confession in the Mormon Church does not seem to be confidential.
    *]You dont have to think for yourself. You simply believe what you are told to, no matter how bizzare it sounds.
    *]Its much easier to be a prophet. It doesnt matter if it doesnt come true, or we can fit events to suit your prophecy (even if they dont really fit).
    *]If it’s wrong you can expect to be worshipping and believing incredibly blasphemous things, but that can probably be said for any religion.
    *]The big con is that it’s not true. That should be enough.
 
NewSeeker said:
God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret.

–Joseph Smith

Joseph Smith declared as revelation the fact that God himself was once as “we are now.” I don’t know about you, but I never was divine prior to my “incarnation” and I don’t any of us that can be so characterized. Joseph said clearly that God was once like us - fallible, sinful, mortal, and was eventually exalted. He did not say that God was like Jesus, i.e., divine prior to his incarnation. Seems pretty clear to me that Joseph Smith taught that God was once “merely” a man.

NewSeeker
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Thanks for adding that, New.

**Pros and Cons of Mormonism:

Pros**

  1. *]There is a strong social support system among active members of the Latter Day Saints Church.
    *]The LDS wards do a better job at creating a sense of belonging than some other religious groups.
    *]Mormons emphasize strong, close, loving family ties.
    *]The LDS welfare system to help those in need is without peer.
    *]There are many well-meaning, good Mormons out there and they make great relatives and neighbors.
    *]In exchange for obeying the leaders of the LDS church, you get the social safety net.
    *]Properly understood LDS theology is Biblical theology.
    *]There are numerous problems with the BOM that have been used to discredit it, but on the whole I believe the answers to the problems and the positive evidences weight strongly in favor of the BOM.
    *]Early Christian history offers much reason to see an “Apostasy of Authority” and to see a restoration of various doctrines found within the CoJCoLDS.
    *]The Bible supports the LDS view of the Trinity.
    *]The Bible teaches, and the early church acknowledges, that men can actually become gods.
    *]The small group with a mission status promotes community.
    *]Church programs for kids are very good.
    *]LDS teens engage in less premarital sex, drink less, attend church more, believe in God more, and have a greater degree of positive feelings toward parents.
    *]The church, especially under the administration of the late Gordon B. Hinckley, has worked hard to mainstream its image and has deemphasized to a considerable degree the idea that mormons are a “peculiar people”.
    *]LDS don’t seem to take their faith for granted.
    *]Spencer W. Kimball said he received a revelation from God that ALL worthy male members of the LDS church (including Blacks, who were previously denied ordination to the Priesthood due to skin color), should now be allowed to hold the LDS Priesthood.
    *]God gives a personal witness to people that His desire is for them to be Mormons and communicates this desire to them.
    *]The Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints has an intellectual strenght.
    *]It does not matter how many reason there are to reject Mormonism as long as there is at least one right reason to accept it.
    *]Mormons do a better job of actually living like Christians than most Christians. Mormons encourage large families and family togetherness.
    *]They have a strong social support system kinda like Catholics did in the 1800’s.
 
Cons

  1. *]Mormonism is not really a Christian religion.
    *]Mormons think they can become gods.
    *]There is absolutely zero linguistic, archaeological or historical support for anything claimed in the Book of Mormon and other LDS documents.
    *]Enjoyment of all that the community has to offer you socially and spiritually is contingent on you receiving a spiritual witness that the Church is true.
    *]They deny almost every line of the Apostle’s Creed.
    *]There is absolutely no archaeological or historical evidence to back up anything that Joseph Smith ever uttered or wrote down.
    *]Joseph Smith was likely a conman who used a self-made papacy to garner power and sexual conquest.
    *]Racism is the prevalent attitude among LDS.
    *]There are cases in which people who depart from the church lose all their friendships.
    *]The Mormons require 10% of your money to enter the LDS Temple. If you don’t pay them the 10% you aren’t allowed to attend your children’s weddings or any other weddings in the temple for that matter.
    *]If you don’t pay them their 10% they claim you will not make it into heaven so essentially you are paying for salvation.
    *]The problem with Mormonism is the simple fact that it is pseudo-christian if that and it is polytheistic in nature.
    *]Mormons are no different from the Jehovah’s Witnesses in how they warp the bible.
    *]The amount of control over your life that you must cede to LDS leaders is great: You are told how and when to serve.
    *]Your compliance with LDS rules will be monitored and your ability to participate in various functions will be affected. (If you don’t show that you meet the criteria you will not be allowed in the temple for example.)
    *]There is absolutely no accounting for tithing money: It goes to Salt Lake City and is spent without letting members know where it goes.
    *]Joseph’s vision seems to be weighted above Jesus’ words.
    *]The continued revelation is at times historically contradictory.
    *]-]Divorce is encouraged if your partner leaves the LDS faith/-].
    *]Fallibility in moral character is allowable for prophets, for all have sinned. Fallibility in doctrinal utterances is inallowable. True prophets cannot utter false doctrine and remain prophets.
    *]Consider Brigham Young: He pronounced many false doctrines. If prophets can mistake speculation for doctrine, then how can they be trusted?
    *]While they oppose most abortions, Mormons don’t believe in the sanctity of life of the unborn.
    *]The one, single, only and perfect reason to irrefutably, undeniably and totally reject mormonism can be summed up in the two most profound words: Holy Eucharist.
    *]LDS teachings are being disproven by science (for example, DNA evidence shows no Isrealite ancestory in Native Americans).
    *]They ban alcohol and caffine.
    *]At one time, they taught that men can marry more than one woman.
    *]Some Mormons are not nice.
    *]Mormonism is extremely ethnocentric.
    *]Joseph Smith was a fraud. For example, he received revelations and compiled the Book of Commandments, but they were later changed in the Doctrine and Covenants.
    *]Mormons are not allowed to pray to Jesus or to the Holy Ghost, nor are they permitted to worship them.
    *]If you are mormon, if/when you marry that perfect mormon mate, in a mormon temple, none of your non-mormon family will be allowed to attend your wedding ceremony.
    *]The mormon church sets your grooming standard and fashion selection.
    *]You can confidently claim anything (great apostasy; mark of cain; plural marriage; eternal progression; baptism of the dead; many gods and goddesses) without worrying about PROVING it, because mormons are the “the true church.”
    *]You can “retranslate” your “scripture” (the BoM and other soporific tomes) into “better” English as your theology changes.
    *]Every man a priest, every man a god. Need I say more?
    *]Women are beholden to menfolk (we mormons rule planets!)
    *]Apparently the belief is that God is falable.
    *]Mormon prophets had difficulties with ancient Egyptian.
    *]The Book of Mormon is a fraud, as Native Americans come from Asia, not Israel, and there are no Lamanites.
    *]There is not enough focus on Jesus Christ, and far too much focus on the Church being true, the BOM and LDS prophets being “true”.
    *]The goal of going to the temple to have your family sealed to you for eternity, and staying worthy enough to be able to do so. These things are emphasized and talked about far more than Jesus Christ is.
    *]It is a “blessings-for-me” theology and mentality. I pay my tithe, and I am given entrance to the temple. I think this puts too much focus on doing things, and even giving charitable donations for purposes of self rather than on simply helping those in need.
    *]The doctrine that God was once a man just like any other man; who lived on an earth and progressed to Godhood. This is in direct conflict with what God has said of himself. He said he is Eternally God. The Great I AM. He Who Is. Without beginning or end.
    *]You can believe Jesus or you can believe Joseph Smith. The contradiction is too great to believe them both.
    *]The Mormon “welfare system” helps only their own.
    *]Mormons do not consider the HS to be a person, or a member of the Trinity, but an “it”.
    *]Confession in the Mormon Church does not seem to be confidential.
    *]You dont have to think for yourself. You simply believe what you are told to, no matter how bizzare it sounds.
    *]Its much easier to be a prophet. It doesnt matter if it doesnt come true, or we can fit events to suit your prophecy (even if they dont really fit).
    *]If it’s wrong you can expect to be worshipping and believing incredibly blasphemous things, but that can probably be said for any religion.
    *]The big con is that it’s not true. That should be enough.
    *]Mormons believe that God was once like us - fallible, sinful, mortal, and was eventually exalted.
 
RebeccaJ said:
It’s a long story. I don’t know that I have a main reason. It was more like a gradual deconstruction at first, and then a period in my life about 3 or 4 years ago where I madly deconstructed myself to the point of nihilism, literally, within about a year.
…Anyway, I lost interest, of the whole religion, from top to bottom. It was like a switch went off inside of me and I just didn’t care. I don’t think I knew of a way to be what mormonism was telling me I had to be.

When I got married I just stopped being mormon, forever.

A few years after I got married the Joseph Campbell interviews with Bill Moyer were aired on PBS, and I watched them with great interest. It was the first time that I had heard any explanations about other belief systems outside of mormonism. I bought the book and was amazed about the similarities between all the beliefs of the world. And that pulverized the belief that mormonism was special.

Then I bought a book about early mormonism. And it was the first time I read about Joseph Smith’s arrests for treasure hunting. And all the other things about him that I certainly never learned in a mormon classroom. I was shocked at what had been kept from me. It was like some dirty family secret that no one talks about and I had to discover it on my own.

Life went on, I didn’t really care about religion, let alone mormonism. And one day, sitting at a red light, I had this incredible insight that I didn’t have to believe in God at all. I was never so damned happy in my life. It was the most wonderful feeling, like I had been set free. And I stayed atheists for a good 15 years or so.
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Thank you Rebecca for being so open. I think you and i have similar, though not identical, experiences.

There was a time in my life when i left Roman Catholicism. The reason i left is because i knew i was not good and felt that it would be impossible to become good enough to be close to God. I remember as a teen sitting on a hill near my home looking up at the stars and feeling so far from Him and asking, “Why?”

I started thinking that if i had no hope of being good, i’d be bad. I engaing in a lot of the same behaviors as you, and other behaviors much more destructive and dangerous and dark. It’s amazing i’m still alive or did not hurt someone. I dropped out of college, left home, joined the US Army, and dropped Catholicism.

While in the Army, however, i could not help thinking of things i’d heard that Jesus said. Things like this came to mind:

“All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.”*(John 6:37)*I met some Baptists in the Army who told me that forgiveness is a gift and Jesus loves even the most unlovable, if only they accept his love and want to want to change. Though i’m not a Catholic or a Baptist now, i believe God used both groups to draw me closer to Him.

I guess what i’m saying is that my hope is that you will not give up on Jesus, because i’ve found it to be true that He will never give up on me or you.

🙂
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
I guess what i’m saying is that my hope is that you will not give up on Jesus, because i’ve found it to be true that He will never give up on me or you.

🙂
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Amen, Soc. He never ever has and He never ever will. I have found this to be true as well. And I believe, thanks be to God, RebeccaJ has too. 🙂

God bless you.
ts
 
One last post, and in response to God’s whispering, I’m taking a break for Lent. Thank you, NewSeeker, for expounding upon what I posted last night. I am actually envious of your newfound knowledge and your amazingly keen reasoning capabilities. I only wish I could process information as quickly and as well as you do!

When a person comes along claiming to be a Prophet of God and claiming to be able to give the world a whole new understanding of a Hebrew word, mldb.byu.edu/follett.htm and says he has special insight regarding the very Nature of God, I want to know if he knows what he’s talking about. And I need more than just his word for it. 🙂

So I think it not only reasonable, but prudent, to go and find out what others who know more than I do, (which is zero), have to say about the Hebrew word, to get their thoughts on this person, and his interpretation of it.

Re: ber’shth and Joseph Smiths translation of Genesis 1:1 please see the following:

jewsforjudaism.org/web/Mormons/mormongenesis.html

And another: (Scroll down to the section entitled Meaning of the Hebrew Scriptures)

larryoverton.com/essays/AHA_001.pdf

Based upon the information provided in these links, is Joseph Smith truly able to prove his claims about God, based upon an interpretation of ber’shth, as he said he could?

I believe it’s obvious; the answer is no.
 
NewSeeker said:
Tom - one more point. The LDS church has consistently taught that Jesus is the first born of the Father and was created by Him out of the pool of “intelligences” from whence we all came when we were all created spiritually. How do you square this with Ostler’s assertion that the social Trinity are eternally gods?
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Actually, the CoJCoLDS has consistently taught that Jesus is the first born of the Father AND that God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, and indeed all of us were/are eternal intelligences.
The only thing Ostler does is align this truth with the witness that Christ is associated with our generation.
Thus, the God the Father to Son relationship that is true for Jesus Christ and for all humans is a product of pre-mortal linkages not generation ex nihilo.
God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit were eternally One God, but the subordination (which is virtually universally present within pre-Nicene thought unless you were a modalist –according to Catholic and Protestant scholars) within the Godhead is linked to the way that the Father and Son (and Holy Spirit) relate to one another.
There have been a few very scholarly treatments of how eternal intelligences are also children of our Heavenly Father, who is (per our scriptures) the greatest of all eternal intelligences. None IMO is more consistent with scripture, first; present teachings of LDS leaders, second; and past teaching of LDS leaders than Ostlers. There have to my knowledge been no dealings with this eternal intelligences to spirit children that carry more authority than Ostler (who has little authority other than he is a faithful member of the church and carried on conversations with LDS leaders like Elder Maxwell about these issues).

I think the position I espouse is coherent in a way that “eternal begetting” is not, but certainly it is no more difficult to explain than “eternal begetting.”

Charity, TOm
 
PaulDupre said:
Suggested?? Your “prophets, seers and revelators” taught it as doctrine (and in BY’s case as scripture
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) for over 150 years.

You can’t have it both ways, Tom. Either your church has been consistently led by living prophets since the days of Joseph Smith, or those “prophets” have taught error about the nature and character of God. If they taught error about something as fundamental as the nature and character of God then they were false prophets.

It’s one or the other.

Paul

I disagree with you. You offer a false dilemma. Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and Harold B. Lee all maintained that prophets are not infallible. BTW, canonized scripture accepted by common consent (CC being a concept not absent from Catholic thought BTW). Mission calls are scripture, but they do not produce binding truth. The highest form of sealing of truth in the CoJCoLDS is common consent and this is not infallible. Catholics have much error from Popes and local councils, but they have a highest form of sealing truth contained in general councils and ex cathedra statements by Popes (of course who know Catholics have the same problem as LDS do concerning knowing when the Pope is speaking ex cathedra and when he is not).

Occasionally non-LDS tell me that I am not a real LDS because I do not believe what they think I should, wish I would, or ….
No faithful LDS that I know has ever told me that I am not a LDS.
As I mentioned before in this thread, my former Bishop’s wife is reading Ostler (and quite enjoying it) upon my recommendation. My former Gospel Doctrine Teacher (4 years full cycle) read Ostler with me and we discussed it as we went. I remember the lesson where he discussed D&C 20:17 and the Snow Couplet. Neither he nor I were run out of church. The Stake Patriarch and I used to be in the same ward. We often found ourselves on the same side of a discussion that critics boldly declare is not the LDS view.

LDS theology does not possess a systematic document like the CCC. That being said with 2x the scriptures of Catholics we have a lot to BIND ourselves to.
And one should also recognize that 200 year old LDS theology is a lot more consistent and universal than the theology called Christian 200 years after Christ died. If you give us a few more centuries (preferably without like the last one where we were not being chased across the country), we will figure a lot of stuff out.

Finally, the views I embrace as a LDS are sufficiently orthodox and I am sufficiently orthopraxic. I would be a Catholic Social Trinitarian who believes fully in the truth that men can become gods (see CCC460), but I would also need to believe in a number of things like creation ex nihilo and human free will, impassibility and God’s love, free will/predestination, … and many other things that don’t make sense.
I must choose between the best available to me as a LDS and the best available to me as a Catholic. I will not be a Catholic who rejects Dogma’s I must embrace because that is not to be Catholic. I would jettison reason in the areas I could not align with reason. As a LDS I stand with numerous LDS leaders and thinkers who may not conform in our beliefs to what critics wish we did, but are fully faithful members. And I do not have to jettison my brain to be a LDS.
Charity, TOm
 
Soc,

I just want to add that, you, as well as many others here are in my prayer, and even if I don’t add any more to this discussion, I do care about the outcome of it. So I will be reading what you write, and will be praying for you and with you.

If any of you are inspired to do so, I would be grateful your prayers also.

truthsilence
 
TOmNossor said:
Occasionally non-LDS tell me that I am not a real LDS because I do not believe what they think I should, wish I would, or ….
Neither he nor I were run out of church. The Stake Patriarch and I used to be in the same ward. We often found ourselves on the same side of a discussion that critics boldly declare is not the LDS view…LDS theology does not possess a systematic document like the CCC…
Finally, the views I embrace as a LDS are sufficiently orthodox and I am sufficiently orthopraxic… And I do not have to jettison my brain to be a LDS.
Charity, TOm
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Although you study LDS theology, which you admit is not yet fully formed, you studiously avoid discussing issues with the BOM. :confused: I am wondering how you interpret the BOM. You have not addressed issues of racism within the LDS. Will you choose to do that here?

You admit that you are well within the LDS Church, but integrate Catholic teachings into your own personal beliefs, and admit that there is much good within Catholicism. I respect your beliefs, and the respect you have for Catholicism. What kind of respect do you have for people of color? Do they have to become Mormon in order to have their skinscolor lightened and the curse removed from them?
 
truthsilence said:
I’m slow posting and most of what I want to say has already been covered, but I’ll say it anyway. You said you do not believe Joseph taught what I posted, but what do you make of these statements from his King Follett discourse?:
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Two things are true. First, it is consistent with my point that the passage you quote is associated with explain how God the Father came to be embodied which is part of the knowledge of God, but in LDS does not preclude His pre-embodiment divinity. This of course continues to follow the theme Joseph Smith established in using John 5:19.
Second, the KFD was put together from the divergent reports of a few men. Here is how Thomas Bullock captured this section like this:
“friend it is necy. to understand the char. & being of God for I am going to tell you what sort of a being of God. *for he was God from the begin of all Eternity & if I do not refute it-*truth is the touchstone they are the simple and first princ: of truth to know for a certainty the char. of God that we may conv[erse] with him same as a man & God himself the father of us all dwelt on a Earth same as Js. himself did & I will shew it from the Bible”

We have no way of knowing precisely what was said, but we do have canonizes scriptures to which to turn. These should be preferred to incredibly important things like the KFD which was not approved in any published form by Joseph Smith and was not sealed by common consent.
truthsilence said:
Please, let me ask you this. Speaking of God, how does divine come to be
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divine? Does Joseph explain it, like he said he could?
He explains some about God the Father becoming embodied just like God the Son. He also hints at the very common early church exchange formula:
God became man to make men gods.
However, Joseph Smith takes it even farther and says not only did God the Son become man, but God the Father became man.
Continued …
Charity, TOm
 
truthsilence said:
That is a LONG way from Jesus saying He ever saw His Father as anyone or anything other than God! In my Bible commentary it says: “This proverb or parable is taken from apprenticeship in a trade: the activity of a son is modeled on that of his father. Jesus’ dependence on the Father is justification for doing what the Father does.”
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Well, I guess it depends on how far you want to take the “apprenticeship.” Jesus when incarnate said that he does what His Father does. I take this much farther than a Catholic would in concert with Joseph Smith. However, I do not take it as far as some LDS do who suggest that God the Father atoned for sins. And nobody believes that God the Father was born to a woman named Mary with a step-father named Joseph.

I point to John 5:19 not to offer a compelling reason for the Catholic to reject their theology (there are others things for that ), but to explain what I think the KFD is teaching us.
truthsilence said:
That makes more sense to me than twisting it into Him saying there was ever a time when His Father was not God which I guess is what Joseph was trying to use it to say? And which, by the way, is in direct contradiction to the whole of Sacred Scripture.
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Of course I too reject the idea that there was a time that God was not God. I however recognize that John 5:19 suggests that Jesus is doing something His Father did previously.
The idea that God does not change is in opposition to the scriptural witness (the Jews viewed God’s unchangingness as his Covenantal faithfulness, not as imutablity). Scripture clearly describes God changing.
truthsilence said:
TOm, It is still being taught to this day and how could you possibly not know that if you are an active LDS? It is still in the lesson manuals of the LDS church. I know President Hinckley said he didn’t know that the church still teaches it. That simply could not have been true. I don’t blame him for wanting to downplay it for the public though. The reasons are obvious.
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I am an active LDS and no, this is not something regularly discussed. While I know of a Gospel Principle manual that mentions it briefly, I am not sure if this is still in use. I also know that it is not mentioned in GC and in addition to Hinckley’s comment there is an Improvement Era answer to gospel questions were Joseph Fielding Smith (who is long dead) uses D&C 20:17 to explain that as LDS we do not know that much about how God was once a man.
truthsilence said:
He said of Himself: I AM WHO AM. What does than mean to you?
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I would generally say eternality. I would find no need to say that it means that God’s quiddity is his being itself or that God has no quiddity.
I am not sure what you are after.
truthsilence said:
I do want to thank you for your response to my question, TOm. I am convicted that the view you are presenting is in conflict with Gods word. It doesn’t even match the view of your Prophet… Nevertheless, I appreciate your willingness to try and explain how you came to your understanding of it. But I sincerely hope you will reconsider coming back to the Catholic faith someday.
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I reject the idea that I am somehow outside the CoJCoLDS.
The little old Italian lady who worships (latria) Mary does not understand some of the intricacies of latria vs. dulia. And yet, would we not both agree that she is a Catholic. Within the CoJCoLDS there is much less of a need to understand intricacies but many who seek to do so agree with me rather than with the view critics think LDS should hold.

I find the view I embrace of the CoJCoLDS to be coherent in a way unavailable to me within Catholicism. But, if God calls me to be a Catholic (and I am able to hear which I pray that I can), I will be a Catholic despite the intellectual weakness I find within your history and theology.
I am all for receiving prayers, thank you.
Charity, TOm
 
truthsilence said:
One last post, and in response to God’s whispering, I’m taking a break for Lent. Thank you, NewSeeker, for expounding upon what I posted last night. I am actually envious of your newfound knowledge and your amazingly keen reasoning capabilities. I only wish I could process information as quickly and as well as you do!

When a person comes along claiming to be a Prophet of God and claiming to be able to give the world a whole new understanding of a Hebrew word, mldb.byu.edu/follett.htm and says he has special insight regarding the very Nature of God, I want to know if he knows what he’s talking about. And I need more than just his word for it. 🙂

So I think it not only reasonable, but prudent, to go and find out what others who know more than I do, (which is zero), have to say about the Hebrew word, to get their thoughts on this person, and his interpretation of it.

Re: ber’shth and Joseph Smiths translation of Genesis 1:1 please see the following:

jewsforjudaism.org/web/Mormons/mormongenesis.html

And another: (Scroll down to the section entitled Meaning of the Hebrew Scriptures)

larryoverton.com/essays/AHA_001.pdf

Based upon the information provided in these links, is Joseph Smith truly able to prove his claims about God, based upon an interpretation of ber’shth, as he said he could?

I believe it’s obvious; the answer is no.
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Sorry, but this is not only wrong, it is becoming substantially wrong.
The Anchor Bible (a very scholarly work rather than a purely theological work), Catholic Scholar Michael M. Winter, Protestant Scholar May and numerous others now acknowledge that the Bible does not teach creation ex nihilo.
Joseph Smith was in fact correct.

The difference between these numerous scholars and the folks that you link to is that they are pursuing the evidence without engaging LDS or defending developed doctrine. There are numerous folks who say, “what we believe is true and/or what LDS believe is false.” But, there are now numerous people who say like Gerard May, creation ex nihilo is a true and good development, but it is not the teaching of the Bible or the very early church.

I can document all of the above and more if you like (perhaps with a link to something I have said in the past).
Charity, TOm
 
truthsilence said:
Amen, Soc. He never ever has and He never ever will. I have found this to be true as well. And I believe, thanks be to God, RebeccaJ has too. 🙂

God bless you.
ts
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Thank you, TS, i need his blessing!

Though my father and mother forsake me, the LORD will receive me.
(Psalm 27:10)

Those who know your name will trust in you, for you, LORD, have never forsaken those who seek you.
(Psalm 9:10)
 
truthsilence said:
Soc,

I just want to add that, you, as well as many others here are in my prayer, and even if I don’t add any more to this discussion, I do care about the outcome of it. So I will be reading what you write, and will be praying for you and with you.

If any of you are inspired to do so, I would be grateful your prayers also.

truthsilence
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I’ll be praying for you, too, TS. God bless.

🙂
 
Jerusha said:
Although you study LDS theology, which you admit is not yet fully formed, you studiously avoid discussing issues with the BOM. :confused: I am wondering how you interpret the BOM. You have not addressed issues of racism within the LDS. Will you choose to do that here?

You admit that you are well within the LDS Church, but integrate Catholic teachings into your own personal beliefs, and admit that there is much good within Catholicism. I respect your beliefs, and the respect you have for Catholicism. What kind of respect do you have for people of color? Do they have to become Mormon in order to have their skinscolor lightened and the curse removed from them?
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I have noticed this as well. He avoids talking about the Book of Mormon. Perhaps it is because he knows there is no good evidence to support it. And the veracity of the Mormon scriptures is the only important matter. All of his theological assertions are simply unimportant if the Book of Mormon is false.
 
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