Pros and Cons of Mormonism

[why_me]

http://www.lastcallrocks.net/images/altlogocop.jpg

Please let me know if you have anything else to add to the list.

The problem soc is just what site you are now on to make up your list. Did you really expect to have the pros outweigh the cons on this forum. Now of course, you can go to mormonapologetics and do the same list and see what happens. But really soc, I am surprised at you. I don’t think that socrates would be happy with the biasness of your site. No socratic method here that is for sure.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I guess what i’m saying is that my hope is that you will not give up on Jesus, because i’ve found it to be true that He will never give up on me or you.

Well soc, it’s been a long road and I’ve been down those dark paths.

My mormon youth was not a negative experience. Children are if anything well loved by a very large community.

I have always been a observer and a “thinker”, from a very young age, and as I got older what I observed and what I was thinking weren’t matching up to what I was being told I had to be and do. I have always been very independent, and have always enjoyed math. When I was in high school I got into computers, those first where I programmed using punch cards.

I wanted to work with my mind, and with computers. I wanted a career, which I have. That would have never fit into the perfect mormon lifestyle. I could never reconcile how God created every woman on earth for one purpose and one purpose only. Like a cookie cutter design with no room for me to be me.

I was once having a conversation with a mormon about this sort of thing, and he said that he thought there were some people who were raised in a very deep mormon lifestyle who could not see themselves living that lifestyle, forever, their whole lives. That was one way of putting it, and I can agree with that.

I didn’t believe in God, but you have to understand that the “god” I was raised to know was God the Father. In my atheism, that is the god that I believed did not exist. I was pissed off beyond belief at that god.

I did this search for truth thing, unraveling myself, and it hit me one day that I still believed in a god, that god that mormonism taught me about. Only, that god was a jerk that I didn’t want anything to do with.

So, I embarked on the search for God, which was a search for Faith because I had none of that, at all. Found Catholicism, realized that I had never had that anger towards Christ. You see the separation that mormonism taught me? mormons do not think of God in a trinitarian way.

So I followed Christ, as Catholics define Him, the God who loves us. This truth that I was never taught as a child or teen, that God IS Love. And here I am, waiting for Easter to be baptized into the Catholic church.

It took me a while to understand Catholicism. Every term, every phrase, every idea, I had to just dump out of my head what I “knew”, what I had been taught, because mormonism and Catholicism are not the same. I did that for about a year and then signed up for RCIA.

What I see with a few mormons here is that they haven’t or can’t make that disconnection from mormonism. Their ideas and thoughts are mormon and can’t be anything else. So they morph Catholicism to their own thoughts, rather than working at understanding what Catholicism is teaching them. What Christ is teaching them.

mormonism has redefined what Christ taught, what Christians believe. They use the same terms but you should never believe the terms have the same meaning as your knowledge from your Catholic or Baptist background.

 

[TOmNossor]

Although you study LDS theology, which you admit is not yet fully formed, you studiously avoid discussing issues with the BOM. I am wondering how you interpret the BOM. You have not addressed issues of racism within the LDS. Will you choose to do that here?

You admit that you are well within the LDS Church, but integrate Catholic teachings into your own personal beliefs, and admit that there is much good within Catholicism. I respect your beliefs, and the respect you have for Catholicism. What kind of respect do you have for people of color? Do they have to become Mormon in order to have their skinscolor lightened and the curse removed from them?
I have discussed the BOM extensively in the past here and elsewhere. I am sure there is a thread with some BOM evidence/problems discussed by me in which you participated.
I think on the whole, the BOM is much better explained by God’s involvement in its production, including its ancient roots than by any sort of fraud theory I have ever found. There is just too much positive evidence to be explained by the fraud theories.

Concerning racism, I believe that most of the problematic passages in the BOM are a product of Old World semi-figurative speech rather than actual skin color. This did not stop LDS from misinterpreting them however.
I believe the history of the CoJCoLDS includes folks who were far ahead of the culture in general in their acceptance of African Americans (Joseph Smith for example under whom Elijah Abel received the priesthood). It includes folks who were more racist than the surrounding culture (Brigham Young for example). There is however very little evidence of LDS treated black people in unloving ways that I have seen.
While it took longer for the LDS to correct their practice than other parts of the US culture, they did do so. David O McKay desired to receive a revelation to correct the practice of not ordaining black men to the priesthood (and President McKay was quite clear this was a practice not a doctrine). When the revelation was received to correct this practice in 1978 a particularly outspoken LDS apostle claimed that all he and others had said should be discarded because they spoke with less light and knowledge than possessed currently.
I have a larger problem with LDS racist past than with LDS polygamist past.
I am sorry if we offended you (either as a non-racist or as a non-white person).
Charity, TOm

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Well soc, it’s been a long road and I’ve been down those dark paths.

My mormon youth was not a negative experience. Children are if anything well loved by a very large community.

I have always been a observer and a “thinker”, from a very young age, and as I got older what I observed and what I was thinking weren’t matching up to what I was being told I had to be and do. I have always been very independent, and have always enjoyed math. When I was in high school I got into computers, those first where I programmed using punch cards.

I wanted to work with my mind, and with computers. I wanted a career, which I have. That would have never fit into the perfect mormon lifestyle. I could never reconcile how God created every woman on earth for one purpose and one purpose only. Like a cookie cutter design with no room for me to be me.

I was once having a conversation with a mormon about this sort of thing, and he said that he thought there were some people who were raised in a very deep mormon lifestyle who could not see themselves living that lifestyle, forever, their whole lives. That was one way of putting it, and I can agree with that.

I didn’t believe in God, but you have to understand that the “god” I was raised to know was God the Father. In my atheism, that is the god that I believed did not exist. I was pissed off beyond belief at that god.

I did this search for truth thing, unraveling myself, and it hit me one day that I still believed in a god, that god that mormonism taught me about. Only, that god was a jerk that I didn’t want anything to do with.

So, I embarked on the search for God, which was a search for Faith because I had none of that, at all. Found Catholicism, realized that I had never had that anger towards Christ. You see the separation that mormonism taught me? mormons do not think of God in a trinitarian way.

So I followed Christ, as Catholics define Him, the God who loves us. This truth that I was never taught as a child or teen, that God IS Love. And here I am, waiting for Easter to be baptized into the Catholic church.

It took me a while to understand Catholicism. Every term, every phrase, every idea, I had to just dump out of my head what I “knew”, what I had been taught, because mormonism and Catholicism are not the same. I did that for about a year and then signed up for RCIA.

What I see with a few mormons here is that they haven’t or can’t make that disconnection from mormonism. Their ideas and thoughts are mormon and can’t be anything else. So they morph Catholicism to their own thoughts, rather than working at understanding what Catholicism is teaching them. What Christ is teaching them.

mormonism has redefined what Christ taught, what Christians believe. They use the same terms but you should never believe the terms have the same meaning as your knowledge from your Catholic or Baptist background.

Thank you, Rebecca, that is helpful. It sounds like you are saying Mormons use the same words Catholics and Protestants use, but they pour different meanings into them. Is this correct?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

OK, here is the final list. I know it is not perfect. It’s a mixture of the good, the bad and the ugly. I’m going to do my best to determine which are the good and and focus my inquiry on those premises.

---

Reasons to Accept or Reject Mormonism:

Reasons to Accept Mormonism

1. 
   *]There is a strong social support system among active members of the Latter Day Saints Church.
   *]The LDS wards do a better job at creating a sense of belonging than some other religious groups.
   *]Mormons emphasize strong, close, loving family ties.
   *]The LDS welfare system to help those in need is without peer.
   *]There are many well-meaning, good Mormons out there and they make great relatives and neighbors.
   *]In exchange for obeying the leaders of the LDS church, you get the social safety net.
   *]Properly understood LDS theology is Biblical theology.
   *]There are numerous problems with the BOM that have been used to discredit it, but on the whole I believe the answers to the problems and the positive evidences weight strongly in favor of the BOM.
   *]Early Christian history offers much reason to see an “Apostasy of Authority” and to see a restoration of various doctrines found within the LDS church.
   *]The Bible supports the LDS view of the Trinity.
   *]The Bible teaches, and the early church acknowledges, that men can actually become gods.
   *]The small group with a mission status promotes community.
   *]Church programs for kids are very good.
   *]LDS teens engage in less premarital sex, drink less, attend church more, believe in God more, and have a greater degree of positive feelings toward parents.
   *]The church, especially under the administration of the late Gordon B. Hinckley, has worked hard to mainstream its image and has deemphasized to a considerable degree the idea that Mormons are a “peculiar people”.
   *]LDS don’t seem to take their faith for granted.
   *]Spencer W. Kimball said he received a revelation from God that ALL worthy male members of the LDS church (including Blacks, who were previously denied ordination to the Priesthood due to skin color), should now be allowed to hold the LDS Priesthood.
   *]God gives a personal witness to people that His desire is for them to be Mormons and communicates this desire to them.
   *]The Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints has an intellectual strength.
   *]It does not matter how many reason there are to reject Mormonism as long as there is at least one right reason to accept it.
   *]Mormons do a better job of actually living like Christians than most Christians. Mormons encourage large families and family togetherness.
   *]They have a strong social support system kinda like Catholics did in the 1800’s.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Reasons to Reject Mormonism

1. 
   *]Mormonism is not really a Christian religion.
   *]Mormons think they can become gods.
   *]There is absolutely zero linguistic, archaeological or historical support for anything claimed in the Book of Mormon and other LDS documents.
   *]Enjoyment of all that the community has to offer you socially and spiritually is contingent on you receiving a spiritual witness that the Church is true.
   *]They deny almost every line of the Apostle’s Creed.
   *]There is absolutely no archaeological or historical evidence to back up anything that Joseph Smith ever uttered or wrote down.
   *]Joseph Smith was likely a conman who used a self-made papacy to garner power and sexual conquest.
   *]Racism is the prevalent attitude among LDS.
   *]There are cases in which people who depart from the church lose all their friendships.
   *]The Mormons require 10% of your money to enter the LDS Temple. If you don’t pay them the 10% you aren’t allowed to attend your children’s weddings or any other weddings in the temple for that matter.
   *]If you don’t pay them their 10% they claim you will not make it into heaven.
   *]The problem with Mormonism is the simple fact that it is pseudo-christian if that and it is polytheistic in nature.
   *]Mormons are no different from the Jehovah’s Witnesses in how they warp the bible.
   *]The amount of control over your life that you must cede to LDS leaders is great: You are told how and when to serve.
   *]Your compliance with LDS rules will be monitored and your ability to participate in various functions will be affected. (If you don’t show that you meet the criteria you will not be allowed in the temple for example.)
   *]There is absolutely no accounting for tithing money: It goes to Salt Lake City and is spent without letting members know where it goes.
   *]Joseph’s vision seems to be weighted above Jesus’ words.
   *]The continued revelation is at times historically contradictory.
   *]-]Divorce is encouraged if your partner leaves the LDS faith/-].
   *]Fallibility in moral character is allowable for prophets, for all have sinned. Fallibility in doctrinal utterances is unallowable. True prophets cannot utter false doctrine and remain prophets.
   *]Consider Brigham Young: He pronounced many false doctrines. If prophets can mistake speculation for doctrine, then how can they be trusted?
   *]While they oppose most abortions, Mormons don’t believe in the sanctity of life of the unborn.
   *]The one, single, only and perfect reason to irrefutably, undeniably and totally reject Mormonism can be summed up in the two most profound words: Holy Eucharist.
   *]LDS teachings are being disproved by science (for example, DNA evidence shows no Isrealite ancestry in Native Americans).
   *]They ban alcohol and caffeine.
   *]At one time, they taught that men can marry more than one woman.
   *]Some Mormons are not nice.
   *]Mormonism is extremely ethnocentric.
   *]Joseph Smith was a fraud. For example, he received revelations and compiled the Book of Commandments, but they were later changed in the Doctrine and Covenants.
   *]Mormons are not allowed to pray to Jesus or to the Holy Ghost, nor are they permitted to worship them.
   *]If you are Mormon, if/when you marry that perfect Mormon mate, in a Mormon temple, none of your non-Mormon family will be allowed to attend your wedding ceremony.
   *]The Mormon church sets your grooming standard and fashion selection.
   *]You can confidently claim anything (great apostasy; mark of Cain; plural marriage; eternal progression; baptism of the dead; many gods and goddesses) without worrying about PROVING it, because Mormons are the “the true church.”
   *]You can “re-translate” your “scripture” (the BoM and other soporific tomes) into “better” English as your theology changes.
   *]Every man a priest, every man a god. Need I say more?
   *]Women are beholden to menfolk (we Mormons rule planets!)
   *]Apparently the belief is that God is fallible.
   *]Mormon prophets had difficulties with ancient Egyptian.
   *]The Book of Mormon is a fraud, as Native Americans come from Asia, not Israel, and there are no Lamanites.
   *]There is not enough focus on Jesus Christ, and far too much focus on the Church being true, the BOM and LDS prophets being “true”.
   *]The goal of going to the temple to have your family sealed to you for eternity, and staying worthy enough to be able to do so. These things are emphasized and talked about far more than Jesus Christ is.
   *]It is a “blessings-for-me” theology and mentality. I pay my tithe, and I am given entrance to the temple. I think this puts too much focus on doing things, and even giving charitable donations for purposes of self rather than on simply helping those in need.
   *]The doctrine that God was once a man just like any other man; who lived on an earth and progressed to Godhood. This is in direct conflict with what God has said of himself. He said he is Eternally God. The Great I AM. He Who Is. Without beginning or end.
   *]You can believe Jesus or you can believe Joseph Smith. The contradiction is too great to believe them both.
   *]The Mormon “welfare system” helps only their own.
   *]Mormons do not consider the HS to be a person, or a member of the Trinity, but an “it”.
   *]Confession in the Mormon Church does not seem to be confidential.
   *]You don’t have to think for yourself. You simply believe what you are told to, no matter how bizarre it sounds.
   *]Its much easier to be a prophet. It doesn’t matter if it doesn’t come true, or we can fit events to suit your prophecy (even if they don’t really fit).
   *]If it’s wrong you can expect to be worshipping and believing incredibly blasphemous things, but that can probably be said for any religion.
   *]The big con is that it’s not true. That should be enough.
   *]Mormons believe that God was once like us - fallible, sinful, mortal, and was eventually exalted.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Now, i’d like some help, please. First, i’d like to ask for assistance from Mormons only. If you are a Mormon, or leaning toward becoming one, what do you think is the one most important reason in the list for me to consider before i decide whether to become a Mormon?

I’d also like to hear from Roman Catholics and other non-Mormons. Which one of the reasons to reject Mormonism in the list do you think is the most important i should think carefully about before i make my decision?

I’m asking for anyone who is good enough to reply to pick *only one, *and then tell me the reason why it is the most important reason of all.

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumb_27/11303812072So19e.jpg

 

[RebeccaJ]

Thank you, Rebecca, that is helpful. It sounds like you are saying Mormons use the same words Catholics and Protestants use, but they pour different meanings into them. Is this correct?

Yes, very different meanings.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I’m asking for anyone who is good enough to reply to pick *only one, *and then tell me the reason why it is the most important reason of all.

#43 why?

God became Man. man does not become God.

This view, or paradigm if you will, is at the very heart of all the differences between the two religions. It makes no sense that a man, a human, like ourselves, progressed out of sin, forward, forward, forward to godhood. Who was the first god then? And why is it that mormons don’t worship that god?

mormons will often brush that aside and say it doesn’t matter, because the God they worship is God the Father. But it does matter, as we’re talking about God here. Not about a man.

God is God, and always has been, He is uncreated and infinite, as scriptures say. The false god of mormonism is a creation of another god, who was once himself a man, so in essence, the mormon god was created by a man.

Their view of Christ has to be one that matches to their false god. Christ is not God, He is a creation of God. Like you, me, and everything on this earth. Another man who progressed to godhood, just like every other man could.

I once had someone explain it to me that mormons are looking through the wrong end of the telescope. And the shortest phrase I know to bring that analogy to a point is that God created man, man did not create God.

 

[RC_Matt]

What I see with a few mormons here is that they haven’t or can’t make that disconnection from mormonism. Their ideas and thoughts are mormon and can’t be anything else.

Yeah, that’s a very valid observation. I’ve known many Mormons who are otherwise intelligent, rational individuals; but they are so steeped in Mormonism that they cannot stand back and look at it objectively. I mean like I can’t fathom how anybody over the age of seven can buy this stuff, let alone reasonably well educated adults. Even leaving Mormon theology out of the equation, one would think that prophets stating stuff like the sun is inhabited, and the moon is inhabited by tall Quakers, who live to be 1,000 years old, might give people a clue that there’s something not quite right here.

 

[TOmNossor]

Apparently it is still discussed, as recently as a couple of weeks ago, in Elders Quorum meetings.

mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=32517

Peace,
truthsilence

The manual does not include the part that Thomas Bullock captured differently than the other scribes and I have little problem with the rest.
Again, the Bible and early church teach that men can become gods. I can provide links if you like.
Charity, TOm

 

[PaulDupre]

God became man to make men gods.

The actual quote is:

He became man so that we might become God.
St. Athanasius, Treatise on the Incarnation of the Word 54, 3

Huge difference. The ECFs did not teach that we would become “gods”. But they did say that we would “partake” of the divine nature (not become divine ourselves). They compare those in heaven with a poker in a flame that becomes red-hot; it is the not the poker which burns, but the flame. So too, when we are admitted into the divine presence, we will be suffused with God’s nature and essence so that we can share in His divinity. But we will never have divinity of our own. Divine nature belongs only to God.

Paul

 

[TOmNossor]

The actual quote is:

Huge difference. The ECFs did not teach that we would become “gods”. But they did say that we would “partake” of the divine nature (not become divine ourselves). They compare those in heaven with a poker in a flame that becomes red-hot; it is the not the poker which burns, but the flame. So too, when we are admitted into the divine presence, we will be suffused with God’s nature and essence so that we can share in His divinity. But we will never have divinity of our own. Divine nature belongs only to God.

Paul

The exchange formula is a summation of numerous things offered by numerous ECF and present in the Bible. It was not my intent to quote Athanasius. Irenaeus and the CCC use the term “gods.”
I am fairly certain that Catholic scholar Keating expresses the exchange formula as I did.
I was turned out to him by a Catholic arguing against me, David Waltz (a Catholic) and another LDS Eric Warren.
Here is the thread on Brad Haas’ (who used to post here) blog. I think the full deification folks (me, David, and Eric) win big in this discussion. I have now read Keating’s book and he offers a huge volume of Biblical and ECF evidence for deification, but then in an incredibly peculiar retreat he backs off. I am working on a review of his book, but I am easily distracted.
Anyway, I think this thread leaves little recourse for the weak deifiers.
http://www.defensorveritatis.net/?p=860#comments

Charity, TOm

 

[PaulDupre]

Tom,
Catholics and Mormons agree that those in the presence of the Father will be deified. We just disagree on the nature and the details of that deification.

We Catholics believe that we will share in the one and only deity of the one and only God. We do not believe that we will become “heavenly fathers” and have goddess wives and bear spirit children and populate planets. That is a blasphemy invented by Joseph Smith and his successors. There is absolutely no evidence of this belief, still taught in your scriptures and Church manuals, anywhere in the bible or the early Church.

God love you,
Paul

 

[TOmNossor]

Tom,

Catholics and Mormons agree that those in the presence of the Father will be deified. We just disagree on the nature and the details of that deification.

We Catholics believe that we will share in the one and only deity of the one and only God. We do not believe that we will become “heavenly fathers” and have goddess wives and bear spirit children and populate planets. That is a blasphemy invented by Joseph Smith and his successors. There is absolutely no evidence of this belief, still taught in your scriptures and Church manuals, anywhere in the bible or the early Church.

God love you,

Paul

Will we be homoousian with God the Father? Why do you hold the veiw that you do?

I see no reason to deny that some of the thing things you mention will occur, but what is clear to me from scripture and the ECF is that we will be fully deified. It is also clear to me that we will be deified in communion with the Father. It is also clear to me that there is One God. And yet as Irenaeus says,

"God stood in the in the congregation of the gods, He judges among the gods.” He [here] refers to the Father and the Son, and those who have received the adoption; but these are the Church.

These are the things that I have discussed in various lessons at church.

As a Social Trinitarian it is quite simple for me to align these truths. How do you do it?
Will you retract the statement that we will not become “gods?”

Charity, TOm

 

[Catholic20064]

Now, i’d like some help, please. First, i’d like to ask for assistance from Mormons only. If you are a Mormon, or leaning toward becoming one, what do you think is the one most important reason in the list for me to consider before i decide whether to become a Mormon?

I’d also like to hear from Roman Catholics and other non-Mormons. Which one of the reasons to reject Mormonism in the list do you think is the most important i should think carefully about before i make my decision?

I’m asking for anyone who is good enough to reply to pick *only one, *and then tell me the reason why it is the most important reason of all.

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumb_27/11303812072So19e.jpg

If the Book of Mormon is true Joseph Smith was a true prophet and you should go join one of the many churches which came out of his movement. If the Book of Mormon is not what Joseph Smith claimed it was, then Joseph Smith was a fraud and you can ignore him and anything he started.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Quote:Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif Thank you, Rebecca, that is helpful. It sounds like you are saying Mormons use the same words Catholics and Protestants use, but they pour different meanings into them. Is this correct?
Yes, very different meanings.

Yes. I find, then, that Socrates’ advice to his friend Phaedrus might be extremely helpful to anyone wanting to come to an agreement about the truth with a Mormon. His counsel to his friend (and indirectly to you or i) is this:

No matter what the subject, there is for those who wish to deliberate well upon it always one and the same starting point: you must know what it is you are deliberating about, or you will fail altogether. Most people, however, are not aware of their ignorance of a thing’s essential nature, and because they think they know all about it, they fail to secure agreement about the premises of their inquiry at its beginning. As they proceed [with their discussion], they reap the predictable harvest of this oversight: they disagree with one another and even contradict themselves.

– Socrates (Phaedrus 237)

You and i must not be guilty of this fundamental error that we might condemn in others, don’t you think, Rebecca? I think you might agree that you and i would be wise to discuss the meaning of the words we use so that when we speak to a Mormon, or to anyone, we are less likely to speak at them and more likely to reason with them. This will help us not only to speak the truth in love, but to better acquire the truth ourselves.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

#43 why?

God became Man. man does not become God.

This view, or paradigm if you will, is at the very heart of all the differences between the two religions. It makes no sense that a man, a human, like ourselves, progressed out of sin, forward, forward, forward to godhood. Who was the first god then? And why is it that mormons don’t worship that god?

mormons will often brush that aside and say it doesn’t matter, because the God they worship is God the Father. But it does matter, as we’re talking about God here. Not about a man.

God is God, and always has been, He is uncreated and infinite, as scriptures say. The false god of mormonism is a creation of another god, who was once himself a man, so in essence, the mormon god was created by a man.

Their view of Christ has to be one that matches to their false god. Christ is not God, He is a creation of God. Like you, me, and everything on this earth. Another man who progressed to godhood, just like every other man could.

I once had someone explain it to me that mormons are looking through the wrong end of the telescope. And the shortest phrase I know to bring that analogy to a point is that God created man, man did not create God.

The most important reason to reject Mormonism:

Reason 43.

The doctrine that God was once a man just like any other man; who lived on an earth and progressed to Godhood. This is in direct conflict with what God has said of himself. He said he is Eternally God. The Great I AM. He Who Is. Without beginning or end.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Yes, i have thought about this reason myself. In fact, i had a conversation about this with a Mormon missionary and his friend who visited me. His name was Elder Howe, and the discussion went something like this:

Howe. We are all the children and offspring of God the Father, whom we worship.
*Soc. *Would you say he is the greatest of all the gods that other people worship?

Howe. Yes, I would!
Soc. And would you say that one should only worship the greatest of all the gods?
*Howe. *Certainly. Would you?
Soc. Yes, i think the greatest of all the Gods is the most worthy of my worship. The Father of Jesus Christ deserves more worship than i could possibly give Him.
Howe. Yes, we agree.
Soc. Perhaps, but maybe the God i try to worship is not the same as yours, so i’d like to learn more about your god.
Howe. Ask any question you want about my God and i will try to answer it.
Soc. Your god–is He eternal? I mean, has he always existed and will he always exist?
Howe. He is eternal, but he has not always existed. He had a beginning like you and me.
Soc. Fascinating! and by beginning, do you mean your god is the offspring of another god?
Howe. Yes.
Soc. And this other god–is he also eternal (that is, immortal), or is he long since dead?
Howe. I’d say he must be immortal and could not die.
Soc. And this god and father of your god and father, was he always existing, or did he also have a beginning?
Howe. He had a beginning, like our god.
Soc. And he is still immortal and living?
Howe. Yes, i think he must be.
Soc. Then, are you not surprised to find you are worshiping the wrong god?
Howe. What do you mean?
Soc. What i mean is that there must be one God who is the ancestor of all other gods. For none of these gods, you said, created themselves. It stands to reason, then, that there is a first God who is the God and Father of all other gods and fathers.
Howe. But that god is not our god.
Soc. Do you think He should be?
Howe. No. Why should I worship a god I do not know?
Soc. Well, a moment ago you agreed with me that we should only worship the greatest of the gods.
Howe. So?
Soc. So, it stands to reason that the God and Father of all the gods and fathers is the greatest of all the gods, for His children worshipped Him, and they became gods. Their children worshipped the gods who worshipped the God and Father of all the other gods and fathers, and so on.
Howe. Why does that make him greater?
Soc. Well, He is greater in position, and more worthy of respect and adoration, as he is the Father of all the fathers. He must also be greater in nature, as only He is the God who is truly eternal, for He must have never had a beginning.

Howe. How do you know he never had a beginning?
Soc. If there was a time He never was, then there would be no gods, for no god has ever given birth to himself. This God, i believe, is the one most worthy of my worship, respect, obedience and love. Don’t you agree?
Howe. No.
Soc. Why not?
Howe. I must go.

Soc. So soon? I hope you will return so we may continue our discussion. We have much to talk about!

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yes. I find, then, that Socrates’ advice to his friend Phaedrus might be extremely helpful to anyone wanting to come to an agreement about the truth with a Mormon. His counsel to his friend (and indirectly to you or i) is this:
No matter what the subject, there is for those who wish to deliberate well upon it always one and the same starting point: you must know what it is you are deliberating about, or you will fail altogether. Most people, however, are not aware of their ignorance of a thing’s essential nature, and because they think they know all about it, they fail to secure agreement about the premises of their inquiry at its beginning. As they proceed [with their discussion], they reap the predictable harvest of this oversight: they disagree with one another and even contradict themselves.*-- Socrates (Phaedrus 237)*You and i must not be guilty of this fundamental error that we might condemn in others, don’t you think, Rebecca? I think you might agree that you and i would be wise to discuss the meaning of the words we use so that when we speak to a Mormon, or to anyone, we are less likely to speak at them and more likely to reason with them. This will help us not only to speak the truth in love, but to better acquire the truth ourselves.

I know I do the same. It is my old Anger, that I often believe I have conquered, but it still hangs about and influences me. A lifetime of experiences that I have a hard time ignoring. But I do try.