Protestant DH has issues with Mary and the Saints

[Allweather]

Yes I understand this, I am a former Catholic, but protestants wonder why not just go directly to Jesus Christ. After all, devotion to Mary is not based on the scriptures.

Lee44

I am very fond of the Rosary and have strong devotion to Mary. I don’t think of this as praying to Mary, although I do fervently ask Mary to intercede for me, and not just during the Rosary, but throughout each day. To me the Rosary is more meditation than petition. Not that petition doesn’t happen during the Rosary, but primarily the Rosary, for me, is meditation upon the sacred mysteries of Jesus.

When I was a Protestant I had no concept of Mary at all. As my conversion to the RCC progressed, I decided that I must see what this Marian thing is all about, and so I determinedly sought out Mary. What I found is that Mary leads more directly to Jesus. The Jesus I knew as a Protestant was distant and unapproachable. He no longer is, but I needed Mary to show me that. She is the Christ-giver. She is a shortcut to Jesus, the REAL Jesus, the one who is not only God, but also perfect man, son of man, son of Mary. Jesus really is incomprehensible without Mary. After all, Jesus is the enfleshment of God as a man. God chose to accomplish this through the agency of a simple and obedient young woman, helped by a loving and protective guardian, Joseph.

I do believe that one can know Jesus perfectly well without giving much thought to Mary. Many Protestants do have excellent relationships with Jesus, even though Mary is hardly present for them at all. Still, Mary, like any loving and sacrificing mother, works in the background for these people, and whether they know it or not, she continues to give birth to Jesus, yet more perfectly for those who give her honor.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

Hi,
Actually the bible tells us to pray to God through Jesus Christ. So we are really suppose to pray to God through Jesus Christ. I had this discussion once in a bible study. The conclusion was that the bible teaches we are to pray only to God through Jesus. I cant remeber the verse but I know Jesus speaks of going thru Him to get to the Father. I believe this is the line up for prayer:

Pray to God in Jesus’s name with the help of the Holy Spirit.

You have the gift of words! I think I’ve been trying to say this all day long but no one seemed to understand me.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

You are mistaken. I spoke of a false interpetation of “one mediator” and asked if you believed that false interpretation. Since you have offered to pray for me, you clearly do not believe that false interpretation – that is, you believe that “one mediator” does not prohibit us from praying for each other, or from asking each other for prayers.

I misinterpretted how you used the word “mediator” and I apologize.

 

[RNRobert]

I think the best example of the role of Mary is seen in the wedding at Cana in John 2. On the one hand, Mary intercedes with her Son on our behalf, yet on the other hand, she points to her Son and says, “Do what he tells you.”

 

[VociMike]

I misinterpretted how you used the word “mediator” and I apologize.

Heck, I thought I was the only one who ever misinterpreted what somebody else wrote.

No appology is necessary, but I appreciate the intention.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

My dear husband is a baptized unpracticing mehtodist and I am a cradel catholic revert trying to convert him. We have been going over the many issues we agree on and the ones we don’t for about 4 months. One of the big differences is my belief in honoring Mary and the Saints. He thinks she was just a vessel and that we are all saints inGod’s eyes. One instance he likes to claim about Peter is that when he walked on water he thus proceded to fall in as he claims this is his fallabillity. Any ideas on how to disfute his dishonoring and critizicing? dessert

Hi,
Honestly I think you would be better off dropping the subject all together. Dont try to convert him either. He will only rebel. You just do what you have to do for yourself. Follow God’s will for you and be a Godly wife. The best example you can be is just to keep your mouth shut. I have been working on keeping my mouth shut for about a year now. Let me tell you it is working. Hold tight to 1 Peter 3:1-2—Wives , in the same way, be submissive to your husbands so that if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. I take this seriously and it is working for me.

 

[Allweather]

Hi,
Honestly I think you would be better off dropping the subject all together. Dont try to convert him either. He will only rebel. You just do what you have to do for yourself. Follow God’s will for you and be a Godly wife. The best example you can be is just to keep your mouth shut. I have been working on keeping my mouth shut for about a year now. Let me tell you it is working. Hold tight to 1 Peter 3:1-2—Wives , in the same way, be submissive to your husbands so that if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. I take this seriously and it is working for me.

I agree! My example is my Mormon fiance. We’ve known each other for five years. At the time we met I had been a lapsed, non-practicing, given-over-to-sinful-lifestyle Catholic for about four years, having gone thru a divorce and moved away from my wife to another state. My gf continued to practice her Mormonism, and I generally paid no attention to it at all. She never pushed me in any way, but she was praying for me. After about FOUR YEARS OF THIS I started to feel the tug of the Holy Spirit calling me to stop being such an idiot. I have her to thank for this, for her prayers, but mostly for her quiet, non-pushy, personal witness of acceptance and patience. There was an unexpected twist, though, for her. She expected me to go Mormon, not to return to my Catholic faith. As I returned, she came with me.

Anyways, the worst thing a woman can do in the religion dept is to be pushy with a man. Men generally do not respond well to this. Just quietly, prayerfully, go about your business and pray pray pray. It may take a long time, so you’ll have to dig in and play hard. He will eventually see the Lord in your life and want some of that for himself. Your quiet love will show him in practice, not in preaching, what being a Christian partner, lover, really is all about.

 

[kage_ar]

No of course not. Do you need prayer for something. Of course God tells us to pray for other people. We call it intercessary prayers. When someone asks for a church wide prayer we call that corporate prayer. I have no issue with that. What I am talking about is when we bow(personally)to pray to God. I am not talking about the content of our prayers. Just the order in which we are to pray. Like I said we pray(our prayers) to God through Jesus with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I hope that clears it up. I have to go eat .

Okay - let’s look at the word pray. A simple definition is to “ask” (think King’s English) “Shopkeeper, I pray you have available to me a fresh loaf of bread.”

So, if to Pray means to Ask, and I can ask you to interceede with Our Father for me… that means I can pray to you that you will interceede to Our Father for me.

We also recognize that the Saints in Heaven are as alive as you and me, so, why would we NOT pray (ask) that the Saints in Heaven to interceede for us?

 

[apophasis]

My dear husband is a baptized unpracticing mehtodist and I am a cradel catholic revert trying to convert him. We have been going over the many issues we agree on and the ones we don’t for about 4 months. One of the big differences is my belief in honoring Mary and the Saints. He thinks she was just a vessel and that we are all saints inGod’s eyes. One instance he likes to claim about Peter is that when he walked on water he thus proceded to fall in as he claims this is his fallabillity. Any ideas on how to disfute his dishonoring and critizicing? dessert

I don’t see by what you wrote here that he’s “dishonoring” or “criticizing” anyone.

 

[dessert]

Sorry to get back so late but this is about the only time I have to get on. My dh does believe in only praying in the name of Jesus of which he proclaims this is the only name we should say and he is a strong fire and brimstone preacher type which is ok. I think he believes that just by saying someones name you are giving them too much honor but in his own way he is not dishonoring them so he is sometimes just silent but sometimes fuming. He is more judgemental all you have to do is ask for an opinion and you get a thousand words in reply but that is ok too. He also thinks we are all saints but doesn’t like others to get too much recognition but we are slowly going over just what the saints have gone through which is more than the average human. He has recently been reading some of the forum with me so I get his opinioon which makes him feel involved and he is stating to take an enterest especially when I was talking to the wiccans. So like you said a year is good because it has been 10 months now for me. He has a little bit of freemasons background a lot of Jesus only indoctrination so it is a lot to come up against. He thinks I am just going through a fad. I guess he feels threatened by all this but I am not trying to push it either. It has helped to get some marian music but not play it all the time. I like being on the forum because I sometimes can feel his pull me back away from the faith so then I pray the rosary more. I bought a rosary and left it out on occasion to get him used to it and now he seems like he is more accepting of it. I bought a crucifix and an empty cross to put on the table this is what my priest said to do anyways with the crucifix and he has not said anything but has not objected anyways. We watched the davinci code his way of trying to prove the church wrong? As long he feels he is not losing me he is ok and I have to say the more I go to confession the calmer I am and our marriage has improved.
I have pointed out to him the rosary is the our father and the Hail Mary but he doesn’t like the word hail. He won’t say the Lords prayer with me because he thinks we should just make up our own prayer. I will write more and try to answer your statements thanks dessert

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Okay - let’s look at the word pray. A simple definition is to “ask” (think King’s English) “Shopkeeper, I pray you have available to me a fresh loaf of bread.”

So, if to Pray means to Ask, and I can ask you to interceede with Our Father for me… that means I can pray to you that you will interceede to Our Father for me.

We also recognize that the Saints in Heaven are as alive as you and me, so, why would we NOT pray (ask) that the Saints in Heaven to interceede for us?

Hi,
Simply put we are not told to pray to the saints in heaven. We are told to prayer for each other the saints that are still here on earth. The bible doesn not talk about praying to the saints in heaven. It does not tell us they can interced for us. The bible tells us that only Jesus can do that. For example, a friend of mine asked me this morning to pray for her friend who is going through surgery this morning. So I asked God to help calm her and asked God to give the doctors wisdom, then I finished with In Jesus’s name I pray. I didnt end with in Mary’s name I pray or another Saint in heaven. Does that make my belief more clear?

 

[dessert]

I don’t see by what you wrote here that he’s “dishonoring” or “criticizing” anyone.

We have talked about Peter lately and I have some sheets printed with facts I got from a post so he is looking them over which we probably won’t agree on much. In a way my dh reminds me of the Peter type, if there is one, personallity. dessert

 

[dessert]

Does he therefore reject all the scripture written by Peter? Does he reject all the scripture written by the other, fallible, apostles? They couldn’t walk on the water either.

To view the question from the other side, if God could prevent fallible, sinning humans from writing error in the scriptures, He can prevent fallible, sinning humans from teaching error to the entire Church. He is God, after all!

Oh, and as far as Mary being just a vessel, to say this is to deny the Incarnation. For a vessel does not impart of itself to its contents. Therefore, if Mary was just a vessel she did not impart her humanity to Christ. And if He did not get His humanity from His mother, then He is not fully man. He is just God wearing a man-suit. That is not the Incarnation…

:yup: Word for word just about so the humanity part I will go over with him and see what is his reply.
I think he is that sola scripture type and so I trying to get the parable story type line across but maybe he is too linear.
He has always liked Paul and likes to quote Paul because he feels Paul was for the gentiles only and Peter for the jews only I guess he is an only person. Now that I am writing this I see him more clearly. dessert

 

[dessert]

There are far too many instances of men being honored, and descriptions of ones who are honored, cited in the bible, and cited without any divine objection, for me to provide them all here. The bible is rampant with such instances and such descriptions. The most obvious one is the 4th commandment. A few others, chosen at random, include Proverbs (“The wise will inherit honor”), Psalms (“his [the righteous man’s] horn is exalted in honor”), Romans ("[give] honor to whom honor is due"). Do a search and you will find that the bible has no problem with humans being honored. It appears to me that you have decided that honor is the same as worship, but they are not the same.

As to the Father honoring those who serve Christ, that is in John 12:26. So the Father is honoring all of the saints in heaven. How can we do less?

Why should I answer a question when we both know the answer already? As I said, if you interpret “one mediator” strictly (and falsely, I might add), then nobody must ever pray for anybody else. Is that your interpretation?

Thank you for your references I think I should look up this word honor a little more closely and my dh and I should discuss this word more as honor is a big thing in other countries and maybe I can show him how to do more of it by honoring him more. We have been over the scripture where Mary washed Jesus feet and Jesus also washed others of which I get the silence again from him because he just doesn’t want to think that Jesus would be that humble. I tell him priests are that way very humble and charitable. dessert

 

[kage_ar]

Hi,
Simply put we are not told to pray to the saints in heaven. We are told to prayer for each other the saints that are still here on earth. The bible doesn not talk about praying to the saints in heaven. It does not tell us they can interced for us. The bible tells us that only Jesus can do that. For example, a friend of mine asked me this morning to pray for her friend who is going through surgery this morning. So I asked God to help calm her and asked God to give the doctors wisdom, then I finished with In Jesus’s name I pray. I didnt end with in Mary’s name I pray or another Saint in heaven. Does that make my belief more clear?

Please show me the chapter and verse that states we should not pray to the saints in heaven - I’ve read the Bible through, cover to cover many many times and I am not recalling that verse.

Now, above, I was sure you said that Christians were allowed to interceed for one another, and that if I had a prayer need, you would be happy to pray for me. Did I misunderstand? I’m pretty sure you know passages of Scripture where we are instructed to pray for one another. So, if Christians are allowed and even encouraged to pray for one another, why would the Christians who have already made it to Heaven not be able to pray for their fellow Christians?

 

[Allweather]

Hi,
Simply put we are not told to pray to the saints in heaven. We are told to prayer for each other the saints that are still here on earth. The bible doesn not talk about praying to the saints in heaven. It does not tell us they can interced for us. The bible tells us that only Jesus can do that. For example, a friend of mine asked me this morning to pray for her friend who is going through surgery this morning. So I asked God to help calm her and asked God to give the doctors wisdom, then I finished with In Jesus’s name I pray. I didnt end with in Mary’s name I pray or another Saint in heaven. Does that make my belief more clear?

allforhim, that sounds pretty much how Catholics pray, too. It appears that you are a little confused about how Catholics pray. Having been a Protestant for many years, I know now that there really isn’t a significant difference between us in how we pray. Catholics tend to have a more complete understanding of various things, including the role of Mary and the other saints. When I started finding Mary in my piety, she taught me about the humanity of Jesus. Before that, I only knew about the divinity. The rejection of Mary in my life diminished for me opportunities to grasp the humanity of Him. Yet, even in my unbalanced understanding of Jesus, I was still with Him, and He with me. In the final analysis, Jesus doesn’t need our religions, he is much, much bigger than any religion. Our ability to comprehend Him is very limited, and He knows that, and works with it. As Oral Roberts wrote, God will meet us at the point of our need. I believe that. Yet, I also believe that He desires us to know and love His human mother as well. As I came to know her, I received many blessings in my faith life. She is the only saint I can speak of, because I haven’t paid much attention to the others. Mary is the Christ bearer, and Jesus is where I’m aiming. If the day comes that I find another saint to venerate, then I have no problem with that at all, but for now, it is Jesus and Mary, Mary and Jesus for me!

 

[Blue_Serenity]

Please show me the chapter and verse that states we should not pray to the saints in heaven - I’ve read the Bible through, cover to cover many many times and I am not recalling that verse.

Show me in the Bible, chapter and verse, that specifically states we are to pray to the saints in heaven. I’ve read the Bible through, cover to cover many many times and I am not recalling that verse.

 

[az_4_faith]

Please refer to this apologetic site:

catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp

In John’s Gospel, the account of the Wedding Feast at Cana is the first recorded intersession by Mary (the Queen of Saints) to her Son Jesus.

Do you think Jesus didn’t know that more wine was needed? Of course not.

His mother interceded on behalf of the hosts of the wedding. Jesus obliged.

(Always offer your most special petitions to Our Lady. She whispers into the ear of Her Son. And He’s a Good Son. He always listens to His Mom.)

 

[Chickamauga]

This is one of the best Marian apologistic sites I’ve ever found. Short, sweet, to the point observations that are so simple you’ll be stunned you didn’t realize all this about Our Blessed Mother before:

Name another woman who conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit? Luke 1:35-38

Name another mother who carried the Divine Person of GOD in her womb for nine months?

Name another mother, whose child she carried, was the cause of a child in another mothers womb to leap for joy? Luke 1:44

Name another mother who gave birth to a person with two natures, one human and one divine?

Name another mother from whom Jesus Christ received all of His genes?

*Name another mother from whom Jesus Christ received His flesh, blood, and bone? *
He is bone of her bone and flesh of her flesh.

Name another mother from whom He received His eyes with which to see, His ears with which to hear, and His mouth with which to speak to us?

And many, many more:

home.inreach.com/bstanley/ven.htm

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Please show me the chapter and verse that states we should not pray to the saints in heaven - I’ve read the Bible through, cover to cover many many times and I am not recalling that verse.