Protestant hymns?

[Molly2000z]

He didn’t write Silent Night.

I’ve heard he wrote Away In A Manger.

 

[Molly2000z]

Okay, I’ve read a lot of these posts and I think that some of you are overthinking the issue.

There’s plenty of good music in the Catholic Church.
The Marian hymns are among my favorite.

However I don’t think that the point of the Mass is to listen to music.
There’s something bigger and deeper going on there.

I’ll sing what our Choir Director asks me to sing.

 

[CradleCath]

Okay, I’ve read a lot of these posts and I think that some of you are overthinking the issue.

There’s plenty of good music in the Catholic Church.
The Marian hymns are among my favorite.

**However I don’t think that the point of the Mass is to listen to music. **
There’s something bigger and deeper going on there.

Excellent point. Unless the music underscores what is actually happening on the altar, it’s a distraction more than anything.

I believe that those who actually sing the Mass… the Agnus Dei, the Creed, the Gloria whether it’s Gregorian/ Roman Chant or polyphany…receive abundant blessings.

 

[Molly2000z]

Excellent point. Unless the music underscores what is actually happening on the altar, it’s a distraction more than anything.

I believe that those who actually sing the Mass… the Agnus Dei, the Creed, the Gloria whether it’s Gregorian/ Roman Chant or polyphany…receive abundant blessings.

I found a CD of old Catholic hymns and I loved hearing them again.

The Mass is very short, less than an hour. There is so little time to enjoy being in the House of God with my fellow Catholics that I truly don’t want to be distracted.

So, if there would be a special Evensong, like the Protestants have I would definitely attend, but other than coming in and going out music I don’t want any distractions.

I will listen to the T Bone Pickens harp music, however not at Mass.

 

[ProVobis]

However I don’t think that the point of the Mass is to listen to music.
There’s something bigger and deeper going on there.

You’re exactly right. You can listen to music in the car on the way home. You can’t bring the Mass there, however.

 

[Unitas]

Has anyone really read the Battle Hymn of the Republic?

I am very Southern United States and it is a beautiful tune but the words offend me and often turn my stomach.

Slavery is rampant is this song. My Grandmother loved to play it on her pump organ. She was born in 1885 so you can guess where she came from.

I’ve read it and don’t see any “rampant slavery” in the tune.

It was written by Julia Ward Howe who was very active in anti-slavery and a supporter of the Union. The same as the Atlantic Monthly, founded by an abolitionist, the magazine the hymn was first published in.

I really don’t see what you’re talking about.

 

[benedictgal]

Has anyone really read the Battle Hymn of the Republic?

I am very Southern United States and it is a beautiful tune but the words offend me and often turn my stomach.

Slavery is rampant is this song. My Grandmother loved to play it on her pump organ. She was born in 1885 so you can guess where she came from.

I do like Amazing Grace. I was once lost but now am found.

Hear it with bagpipes. I want it at my funeral. And my husband’s.

Any good God type places in Scotland?

Our first rector at the Cathedral had just finished Mass and the choir sang that infernal Battle Hymn. He got on the mike and stopped the song dead in its tracks. His ancestors fought in the War Between the States. In fact, Northern soldiers burnt his family’s barn down. He had the choir switch to Holy God, We Praise Thy Name and made the choir director swear to never, ever use that song again.

I do not like Amazing Grace simply because it speaks to the Protestant notion of salvation, which is contrary to what the Church teaches. My priest friend will also not allow that song either, for the same reasons.

Most of OCP’s Spirit and Song music is Protestant, in nature, as well.

 

[Cat]

Our first rector at the Cathedral had just finished Mass and the choir sang that infernal Battle Hymn. He got on the mike and stopped the song dead in its tracks. His ancestors fought in the War Between the States. In fact, Northern soldiers burnt his family’s barn down. He had the choir switch to Holy God, We Praise Thy Name and made the choir director swear to never, ever use that song again.

I do not like Amazing Grace simply because it speaks to the Protestant notion of salvation, which is contrary to what the Church teaches. My priest friend will also not allow that song either, for the same reasons.

Most of OCP’s Spirit and Song music is Protestant, in nature, as well.

In the OP, I asked people to list songs sung in Mass that they consider “Protestant” and explain why they consider them “Protestant.”

The two hymns you listed have been discussed in this thread and it turns out that many Catholics do NOT consider them anti-Catholic at all. Your opinions are certainly valid, but just as many Catholics hold the opinion that these songs are hymns that can be sung in good conscience by good Catholics in a Mass. These people may be wrong, but then again, YOU could be wrong.

It seems that in various discussions on this forum of “Protestant” hymns, these are the two hymns that come up over and over again. That’s why I started this thread. I would like to hear people justify making statements like “Most of the OCPs Spirit and Song music is Protestant, in nature, as well.” What am I missing?

Could you please list other examples of “Protestant” hymns in the OCP Spirit and Song and explain why they are “Protestant”?

Thank you.

 

[Cat]

Our first rector at the Cathedral had just finished Mass and the choir sang that infernal Battle Hymn. He got on the mike and stopped the song dead in its tracks. His ancestors fought in the War Between the States. In fact, Northern soldiers burnt his family’s barn down. He had the choir switch to Holy God, We Praise Thy Name and made the choir director swear to never, ever use that song again.

I do not like Amazing Grace simply because it speaks to the Protestant notion of salvation, which is contrary to what the Church teaches. My priest friend will also not allow that song either, for the same reasons.

Most of OCP’s Spirit and Song music is Protestant, in nature, as well.

I think it’s really too bad when a person prevents others from singing a perfectly good hymn because of a personal grudge.

More people died in the Civil War than any war in U.S. history, including many Northerners.

It is a good hymn with stirring words and melody.

There is a Protetant hymn that is sung to the melody of “Deutschland uber alles”. I’m sure there are people who were negatively impacted by the European theater of WWII. But I have never heard of anyone asking for this hymn to be removed or for a different melody to be used (although I’m sure someone can find references to such a request). Perhaps they did in the years immediately following WWII, which is understandable, but it is certainly not an issue in the last 40 years or so.

 

[CradleCath]

QUOTE=Cat;3924068]I think it’s really too bad when a person prevents others from singing a perfectly good hymn because of a personal grudge.

More people died in the Civil War than any war in U.S. history, including many Northerners.

It is a good hymn with stirring words and melody.

I agree. The Battle Hymn of the Repulic is an anti-slavery hymn. This can be known by reading all of the words & studying the background of the person who wrote it.

“In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me:
As He died to make men holy, let us live to make men free;”

 

[consumedconvert]

 

[benedictgal]

Amazing Grace goes squarely against the Catholic doctrine of salvation because it says that the person receives grace the hour he first believes. As Catholics, we receive sanctifying grace at the moment of baptism, which, in most cases, happens when we are infants.

The stuff at LifeTeen, like “Lord, I Lift Your Name on High”, “Our God is an Awesome God” and “Shine, Jesus, Shine” has no place in the Mass.

Perhaps there are some who haven’t read what Pope John Paul II wrote regarding sacred music. This should be an eye-opener:

1. In continuity with the teachings of St Pius X and the Second Vatican Council, it is necessary first of all to emphasize that music destined for sacred rites must have holiness as its reference point: indeed, "sacred music increases in holiness to the degree that it is intimately linked with liturgical action"[11]. For this very reason, “not all without distinction that is outside the temple (profanum) is fit to cross its threshold”, my venerable Predecessor Paul VI wisely said, commenting on a Decree of the Council of Trent[12]. And he explained that “if music - instrumental and vocal - does not possess at the same time the sense of prayer, dignity and beauty, it precludes the entry into the sphere of the sacred and the religious”[13]. Today, moreover, the meaning of the category “sacred music” has been broadened to include repertoires that cannot be part of the celebration without violating the spirit and norms of the Liturgy itself.

St Pius X’s reform aimed specifically at purifying Church music from the contamination of profane theatrical music that in many countries had polluted the repertoire and musical praxis of the Liturgy. In our day too, careful thought, as I emphasized in the Encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia, should be given to the fact that not all the expressions of figurative art or of music are able “to express adequately the mystery grasped in the fullness of the Church’s faith”[14]. Consequently, not all forms of music can be considered suitable for liturgical celebrations.

Protestant services are comprised of lots of singing, reading a scripture passage, a long sermon and lots more loud singing (sometimes clapping). That’s it. They don’t have the Sacrifice because they don’t believe in the Real Presence of Our Lord.

As the New Israel, the Church has the sacrifice and the Real Presnece of Jesus. The music needs to reflect that. Protestant music doesn’t at all reflect the mysteries of the Faith because it wasn’t meant to do that.

 

[CradleCath]

CradleCath;3924255:

Interestingly enough, I believe that line was originally “let us die to make men free,” and it was largely changed after the war.

It would be interesting to look that up, to confirm.

I did & you’re right. It was originally:

As He died to make men holy,
Let us die to make men free.

It was changed after the war.

 

[mercygate]

**“The only quibble that might be made is that Gospel music has a character that is quite different from specifically liturgical music that integrates with the movement of the Mass.” **

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I forgot to add, we also sing the Gloria, the Alleluia, the Holy Holy Holy, the Great Amen, and the Lamb of God in every Mass along with our gospel music, which is sung at Entrance, Offertory, Communion, Thanksgiving and Closing. So we DO integrate liturgical music with the movement of the Mass.

Uh-huh. Do you use a Gospel setting of the Ordinary?

I’m still not fully on board with “inculturation”.

I know the Mass is universal and must be accessible to people of all cultures. However, my own culture is English or, more broadly, European. I’m not much good at getting past that. Somehow, these days, that is considered a reprehensible character defect and it makes me all kinds of ugly.

I am probably the only person in the world who finds Gospel music nerve-shattering and distracting at Mass.

 

[mercygate]

You’re exactly right. You can listen to music in the car on the way home. You can’t bring the Mass there, however.

The Divine Liturgy is actually intended to be sung from beginning to end. The practice of “saying” parts of it and punctuating it with hymns is a relatively recent innovation.

 

[theistgal]

One thing I’ve often wondered since moving into the Byzantine Catholic rite is - why aren’t Latin Rite Catholics incorporating hymns from the Eastern churches into their hymnals?

After all, we are in communion and the Protestants aren’t.

Not knocking the Protestant hymns, some are very nice.

But there are some beautiful treasures in the East that seem to be completely ignored by the West.

Here’s a website that has some examples (be aware there’s a MIDI file playing when you open it): easterncatholichymns.homestead.com/byzhyms.html

 

[mercygate]

Amazing Grace goes squarely against the Catholic doctrine of salvation because it says that the person receives grace the hour he first believes. As Catholics, we receive sanctifying grace at the moment of baptism, which, in most cases, happens when we are infants.

The stuff at LifeTeen, like “Lord, I Lift Your Name on High”, “Our God is an Awesome God” and “Shine, Jesus, Shine” has no place in the Mass.

Perhaps there are some who haven’t read what Pope John Paul II wrote regarding sacred music. This should be an eye-opener:

Protestant services are comprised of lots of singing, reading a scripture passage, a long sermon and lots more loud singing (sometimes clapping). That’s it. They don’t have the Sacrifice because they don’t believe in the Real Presence of Our Lord.

As the New Israel, the Church has the sacrifice and the Real Presnece of Jesus. The music needs to reflect that. Protestant music doesn’t at all reflect the mysteries of the Faith because it wasn’t meant to do that.

Now, I NEVER disagree with you. But I DO disagree that “Amazing Grace” excludes a Catholic view. Even if we are imbued with grace at baptism as an infant (as Newton was), the moment we appropriate that grace and “first believe” IS a moment of “amazing grace,” and is a vivid landmark in our continuing journey to Christ.

 

[mercygate]

One thing I’ve often wondered since moving into the Byzantine Catholic rite is - why aren’t Latin Rite Catholics incorporating hymns from the Eastern churches into their hymnals?

After all, we are in communion and the Protestants aren’t.

Not knocking the Protestant hymns, some are very nice.

But there are some beautiful treasures in the East that seem to be completely ignored by the West.

Here’s a website that has some examples (be aware there’s a MIDI file playing when you open it): easterncatholichymns.homestead.com/byzhyms.html

Man! I vote for that one. We HAVE sung a Russian setting of the Beatitudes. And Eastern chant is certainly not more “foreign” to the Catholic liturgy than much of the stuff we sing. Gospel-folk-rock anyone?

 

[Cat]

**Amazing Grace goes squarely against the Catholic doctrine of salvation because it says that the person receives grace the hour he first believes. As Catholics, we receive sanctifying grace at the moment of baptism, which, in most cases, happens when we are infants. **
The stuff at LifeTeen, like “Lord, I Lift Your Name on High”, “Our God is an Awesome God” and “Shine, Jesus, Shine” has no place in the Mass.

Perhaps there are some who haven’t read what Pope John Paul II wrote regarding sacred music. This should be an eye-opener:

Protestant services are comprised of lots of singing, reading a scripture passage, a long sermon and lots more loud singing (sometimes clapping). That’s it. They don’t have the Sacrifice because they don’t believe in the Real Presence of Our Lord.

As the New Israel, the Church has the sacrifice and the Real Presnece of Jesus. The music needs to reflect that. Protestant music doesn’t at all reflect the mysteries of the Faith because it wasn’t meant to do that.

The hymn does NOT say that we “receive grace the hour we first believe.”

The hymn says “How precious did that grace appear the hour I first believed.”

The implication is strong that the grace was already there, and the person realized it or “believed it,” which is what happens as babies grow up.

Every Catholic comes to a place where they actually “believe” or “accept” or “realize” or “comprehend” (use whatever word makes the most sense to you) what happened to them at their baptism.

For some this happens at First Holy Communion or even earlier.

For others, they don’t truly “believe” until Confirmation.

And for still others, this happens at a later time in their life. I have heard many Catholics testify that they had no idea what their faith actually meant to them personally until they were older.

It would be wise to read the hymns before critiquing them.

 

[maryanna36]

**Uh-huh. Do you use a Gospel setting of the Ordinary? **

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I don’t know what you mean by using a “Gospel setting of the Ordinary”…

The Ordinary Form is celebrated the way as it is supposed to be done. The service music is not chant but done in parts (polyphony???). And very beautifully too. Not Gospel… Sorry I don’t know whose liturgical music we are using since we don’t use hymnals for the service music. We sing it all from memory as most Gospel Choirs do.