Protestant Innovation - Protestants please explain your Innovated Tradition of using Grape Juice rather than Wine for Holy Communion

[Lizziebel]

The traditions of celebrating Christmas on December 25th and celebrating Easter on a certain date aren’t in the Bible, so not every Christian tradition comes strictly from the Bible alone.

But, anyway, onto the topic of Communion. I’ve never actually heard an explanation for why the nonalcoholic form is used in the denomination I grew up in. Until now, it actually wasn’t something I’d even thought about.

My response in my Protestant days to the question would have been along the lines of:

"Traditions of men? It’s the Lord’s Supper…Holy Communion… which was instituted by Jesus. I’d never heard that it was a command that only wine was to be used or that anyone would consider the nonalcoholic version unacceptable. "

The thought that this could remotely be considered a ‘tradition of men’ because of using the nonalcoholic vs. alcoholic version would have come from such a different mindset that it would have made no sense to me before becoming familiar with this forum.

 

[fbl9]

Your funny!

Jesus made the wine and made it strong, but left the people their free will to either drink too much or just enough.

I don’t remember off hand where in the Bible, but somewhere in their some of the Jews **accused Jesus of being drunk **at one point! Certainly the accusation was false since all the other accusations they threw his way were also false.

Thanks i do try to be a bit humorous…but seriously i have heard people argueing in the same vein,that the wine was not really wine
Try St.Luke 7:34

 

[NDfan]

The Protestants I’ve spoken to, pride themselves with their Doctrine of Sola Scriptura…that everything they do comes straight out of the Bible and they accuse us Catholic of all kinds of 'Innovations".

By only reading the Bible, how in the world do Protestants defend their innovation of using Grape Juice rather than Wine during their Communion services? The Bible is clear during all accounts of the Last Supper that bread and WINE were used by Jesus, not bread and Grape Juice.

Please explain how you as a Protestant can hold at the same time the belief that everything you do is from the Bible and yet you are practicing a Tradition not found in the Bible by using Grape Juice rather than Wine for Holy Communion.

This is not a Tradition that was taught by any of the Apostles. Do you simply not realize that by using Grape Juice you are clinging onto a “Tradition of Man”?

Monica please show me in scripture where it states Jesus used WINE. Actually save your time because it doesn’t. The only thing we have to go by is the saying fruit of the vine. Which interestingly Jesus refers to the cup as fruit of the vine even after HE supposedly consecrates it. But that’s another thread

Fruit of the vine has been argued to mean wine and it has been argued to mean grape juice. Our church used to use wine but then we switched for the children and to be considerate to alcoholics.

Now here’s a question back to you. Christ tells us to take both yet most Catholic Churches I have been to and the one I grew up in never offered the cup to the laity. Why is this. Because the Pope decreed that the bread was sufficient. Why? Same reason some protestants use grape juice. Out of respect for alcoholics and the children. So does the Pope override Christ??

Maybe you should stop being so sarcastic and realize that you are holding to the traditions of man as well.

 

[NDfan]

Your funny!

Jesus made the wine and made it strong, but left the people their free will to either drink too much or just enough.

I don’t remember off hand where in the Bible, but somewhere in their some of the Jews **accused Jesus of being drunk **at one point! Certainly the accusation was false since all the other accusations they threw his way were also false.

The Jews did not accuse Christ of being drunk. They accused the Apostles of being drunk when they were speaking in tongues. They called Christ a drunkard because he drank wine.

 

[NDfan]

Some that I have known and know state that the “wine” in those times was not as strong as it is now and was really like grape juice. Of course I do not agree at all, but that is what I have been told. I was taught that when I was young in a Baptist school.

Steve

That is absolutely true. The grape juice was slightly fermented which would have made the alcohol content only like 2-3%.

They didn’t ferment the juice in oak barrels for 18 months like they do in California to produce 14% alcohol wines.

 

[NDfan]

I’m glad you didn’t buy into that since, it is very clear in the New Testament that their wine was strong - look at the conversations over the strength of the wine at the Wedding of Cana where Jesus did His first miracle…where He made the water turn to Very Strong Wine!

Monica you don’t know scripture too well do you?? Where in John 2 does it say STRONG wine. It’s referred to as good wine.

 

[fbl9]

Monica please show me in scripture where it states Jesus used WINE. Actually save your time because it doesn’t. The only thing we have to go by is the saying fruit of the vine. Which interestingly Jesus refers to the cup as fruit of the vine even after HE supposedly consecrates it. But that’s another thread

Fruit of the vine has been argued to mean wine and it has been argued to mean grape juice. Our church used to use wine but then we switched for the children and to be considerate to alcoholics.

Now here’s a question back to you. Christ tells us to take both yet most Catholic Churches I have been to and the one I grew up in never offered the cup to the laity. Why is this. Because the Pope decreed that the bread was sufficient. Why? Same reason some protestants use grape juice. Out of respect for alcoholics and the children. So does the Pope override Christ??

Maybe you should stop being so sarcastic and realize that you are holding to the traditions of man as well.

Never noticed that one (fruit of the vine) in the three gospels which record this event fruit of the vine is used…
You are a bit hasty is saying that He refers to it as only the fruit of the vine …St.Mark writes 14:23-24"And taking a cup and giving thanks,He gave it to them and they all drank of it.24and He said to them this is My blood of the new covenant…" which Jesus continues in verse 25 saying "i will not drink of the fruit of the vine"So we have Jesus refering to the contents of the cup as both His blood and the fruit of the vine at the one and same time.
We used recieve both in my parish,which i would like to return to.
Have you forgot the pope recieves his orders from Jesus…

 

[NDfan]

Never noticed that one (fruit of the vine) in the three gospels which record this event fruit of the vine is used…
You are a bit hasty is saying that He refers to it as only the fruit of the vine …St.Mark writes 14:23-24"And taking a cup and giving thanks,He gave it to them and they all drank of it.24and He said to them this is My blood of the new covenant…" which Jesus continues in verse 25 saying "i will not drink of the fruit of the vine"So we have Jesus refering to the contents of the cup as both His blood and the fruit of the vine at the one and same time.
We used recieve both in my parish,which i would like to return to.
Have you forgot the pope recieves his orders from Jesus…

FBL I wasn’t trying to be nasty honestly and I certainly wasn’t implying ONLY fruit of the vine as in no big deal. You need to re-read my post. I said Jesus still referred to it as fruit of the vine even after HE supposedly consecrated it. Meaning that it’s clear Jesus recognized it as being wine or grape juice whatever it was. I wasn’t downplaying it at all.

But the word wine is never used in reference to communion. Christ calls the cup the new covenant in HIS blood. So the covenant is in HIS blood and the cup represents it. But after Christ supposedly changes it to blood HE calls it fruit of the vine and states HE will not drink again until HE drinks it new in Heaven with HIS disciples. If fruit of the vine is wine or grape juice then Christ didn’t make a physical change to blood. Unless HE was calling HIS blood wine

And I didn’t forget the Pope supposedly takes his orders from Jesus. What I’m saying is if you knock Protestants for using grape juice for good reasons, then you have to look at the Pope’s actions also and his reasoning. If it came from Christ then it just shows that Christ is just as sensitive as Protestants are trying to be by using grape juice.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Worldwide, about 85 million Lutherans and 75-80 million Anglicans.

Jon

Thanks, but do you know what their percentage is within the entire Protestant world?

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Where in John 2 does it say STRONG wine. It’s referred to as good wine.

Verse 10.

You should not only read the Bible, but read it in context. That way to won’t miss anything!

 

[SingleMomMonica]

The Jews did not accuse Christ of being drunk. They accused the Apostles of being drunk when they were speaking in tongues. They called Christ a drunkard because he drank wine.

You’re describing an event recorded in Acts. I was referring to an incident recorded in the Gospels.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

The traditions of celebrating Christmas on December 25th and celebrating Easter on a certain date aren’t in the Bible, so not every Christian tradition comes strictly from the Bible alone.

You are correct! The Protestants get those dates from the Catholic Church. Great point! Yet another area where Protestants fail to live up to their own “Sola Scriptura” doctrine.

But, anyway, onto the topic of Communion. I’ve never actually heard an explanation for why the nonalcoholic form is used in the denomination I grew up in. Until now, it actually wasn’t something I’d even thought about.

My response in my Protestant days to the question would have been along the lines of:

"Traditions of men? It’s the Lord’s Supper…Holy Communion… which was instituted by Jesus. I’d never heard that it was a command that only wine was to be used or that anyone would consider the nonalcoholic version unacceptable. "

It is a Tradition of men because Jesus instituted the Lord’s Supper using Wine, not Grape Juice.

The thought that this could remotely be considered a ‘tradition of men’ because of using the nonalcoholic vs. alcoholic version would have come from such a different mindset that it would have made no sense to me before becoming familiar with this forum.

I’m glad you’re here now!

 

[NDfan]

Verse 10.

You should not only read the Bible, but read it in context. That way to won’t miss anything!

Uh I don’t think you read too well.

Verse 10: and said to him, “Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now.”

Please show me the word strong. As a wine connoisseur I can assure you good wine had nothing to do with strong wine. What the verse is saying is that you let people get drunk on the good wine first, then when you serve the poor wine they are too drunk to know the difference. It has nothing to do with strength and everything to do with QUALITY. Quality does not mean stronger.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Thanks i do try to be a bit humorous…but seriously i have heard people argueing in the same vein,that the wine was not really wine
Try St.Luke 7:34

Thanks for the Bible Verse, I knew it was in one of the Gospels somewhere!

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Uh I don’t think you read too well.

Verse 10: and said to him, “Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now.”

Please show me the word strong. As a wine connoisseur I can assure you good wine had nothing to do with strong wine. What the verse is saying is that you let people get drunk on the good wine first, then when you serve the poor wine they are too drunk to know the difference. It has nothing to do with strength and everything to do with QUALITY. Quality does not mean stronger.

Learn Greek and then we’ll talk.

 

[geometer]

That is absolutely true. The grape juice was slightly fermented which would have made the alcohol content only like 2-3%.

They didn’t ferment the juice in oak barrels for 18 months like they do in California to produce 14% alcohol wines.

This is a pretty good observation.

In preparation for passover all leaven is to be removed. Leaven is yeast. The wine of passover is new wine, which is the juice of freshly crushed grapes. It does contain yeast and begins to ferment. It quickly becomes hot and ‘boils’ from the fermentation process releasing CO2. Jesus had refered to this in saying that ‘new wine will burst old wine skins’ and in saying ‘my cup runneth over’.

So, protestants usually try to support the use of pasturized grape juice by pointing to the passover rule about no leaven.

Today however, all wines contain a small percentage of added wood alcohol, which is highly toxic. It has only been recently that Rabbis have allowed this toxic additive in kosher wine used for passover…

Don’t drink the kool-aid…

 

[NDfan]

You’re describing an event recorded in Acts. I was referring to an incident recorded in the Gospels.

Yes and I pointed to that incident in the Gospels specifically from Matthew and repeated in Luke. Again Christ was never accused of being drunk. Christ stated and I quote:

19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds.” [6]

He wasn’t accused of actually being drunk at this time. They called Christ a drunkard because they knew HE drank wine. You have to keep it in context with the entire message.

 

[NDfan]

Learn Greek and then we’ll talk.

Please Monica I know Greek so let’s talk.

The word used in John 2 to describe the wine as being good is the word kalos. Kalos literally means beautiful to look at. It has nothing to do with being strong.

Next!!!

 

[SingleMomMonica]

The Jews did not accuse Christ of being drunk.

Read the entire Chapter 7 of Luke - pay close attention to who Christ is speaking to when he says in verse 34 "the Son of Man has come eating and drinking , and you say, “Look, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax-collectors and sinners!” - My bolding.

You were saying something about me not knowing the Bible and yet you have somehow overlooked this entire passage. Keep reading the Bible!

If you were a Roman Catholic you’d hear the entire Bible read every 3 years if you were to attend daily Mass.

Non-Catholics are welcome to join us at Mass every single day of the year so you can learn the Bible. The doors are open! Come on in.

 

[NDfan]

This is a pretty good observation.

In preparation for passover all leaven is to be removed. Leaven is yeast. The wine of passover is new wine, which is the juice of freshly crushed grapes. It does contain yeast and begins to ferment. It quickly becomes hot and ‘boils’ from the fermentation process releasing CO2. Jesus had refered to this in saying that ‘new wine will burst old wine skins’ and in saying ‘my cup runneth over’.

So, protestants usually try to support the use of pasturized grape juice by pointing to the passover rule about no leaven.

Today however, all wines contain a small percentage of added wood alcohol, which is highly toxic. It has only been recently that Rabbis have allowed this toxic additive in kosher wine used for passover…

Don’t drink the kool-aid…

Thanks geometer. I’m from Maryland as well. Are you Jewish by any chance?? Interesting information.