Protestant Innovation - Protestants please explain your Innovated Tradition of using Grape Juice rather than Wine for Holy Communion

[Lizziebel]

SingleMomMonica,

Sola Scriptura is a term I’d never heard in my life until coming to this forum. Perhaps it might be a bit of a generalization to attempt to use it with all protestants? I have no idea. Mainly, I was just making the point that the claim that traditions come only from the Bible probably wasn’t a claim people were making, because there are those obvious examples that aren’t in the Bible .

As far as the issue with grape juice vs. the alcoholic version, I get that this is your perspective. It’s just such a completely different mindset! Yes, it was originally instituted with wine. It’s just that this fact wouldn’t have led directly to “therefore, one may never use anything else but.” For example, this thought just occured to me. When wafers are used, is the bread broken and distributed, as it was broken and distributed at the Last Supper? Yet we use wafers (sometimes in the church I grew up in) and at Mass.

And thanks . I’m glad to be here as well!

 

[geometer]

Thanks geometer. I’m from Maryland as well. Are you Jewish by any chance?? Interesting information.

Hi, my dad worked in the alcohol industry with a Jewish owned company, so I learned from him. Dad was not Jewish though, he was an elder in a Presbyterian church.

 

[NDfan]

Read the entire Chapter 7 of Luke - pay close attention to who Christ is speaking to when he says in verse 34 "the Son of Man has come eating and drinking , and you say, “Look, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax-collectors and sinners!” - My bolding.

Monica we were talking about the wedding at Cana and the word STRONG being used to describe the wine. I refuted this even using the Greek and now you want to switch gears to Luke. So let’s do that. The bolding as you say is of the word: oinopotes which means someone given to wine. Again this isn’t an accusation of Christ being drunk. Christ is being sarcastic here in comparing HIMSELF to the behavior of John the Baptist.

You were saying something about me not knowing the Bible and yet you have somehow overlooked this entire passage. Keep reading the Bible!

No I didn’t overlook anything. I know the Bible in Greek and I know this passage. Maybe you should keep reading.

If you were a Roman Catholic you’d hear the entire Bible read every 3 years if you were to attend daily Mass.

I was Roman Catholic for over 40 years. And hearing the Bible every 3 years is a joke. That’s nowhere even true. Do you know how much scripture is skipped over? Probably not.

Non-Catholics are welcome to join us at Mass every single day of the year so you can learn the Bible. The doors are open! Come on in.

No thanks. Been there done that.

 

[NDfan]

Hi, my dad worked in the alcohol industry with a Jewish owned company, so I learned from him. Dad ws not Jewish though, he was an elder in a Presbyterian church.

Interesting. Is your Dad still an Elder? My Father-in-law was an Elder at their Presbyterian church.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Yes and I pointed to that incident in the Gospels specifically from Matthew and repeated in Luke. Again Christ was never accused of being drunk. Christ stated and I quote:

19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds.” [6]

He wasn’t accused of actually being drunk at this time. They called Christ a drunkard because they knew HE drank wine. You have to keep it in context with the entire message.

You are failing at your attempt to claim that a “drunkard” would be a description of someone never “drunk” - they claimed he was a drunkard, because they were claiming that he had been drunk, repeatedly so in order to be considered a drunkard. It’s completely possible to get drunk once and not be considered a drunkard. They were accusing him not only of being drunk once, but many times over; hense the use of the word "drunkard’. Their claim was undoubtedly a false claim.

The only reason, I can think of that you are attempting to make this false claim that the Jews did not call Jesus a drunk is because you are unable to answer the question of this thread…regarding the Protestant Innovation of using Grape Juice rather than Wine as Christ Himself used at the Last Supper when He instituted the Eucharist aka the eating of His Body and drinking His Blood which He had previously revealed to us as necessary as recording in John 6.

Catholics stick soley to the Traditions of God, not the Traditions of Man, but Protestants, save a couple of its sects, cleave tightly to a Tradition of Men by using Grape Juice rather than Wine.

 

[geometer]

Interesting. Is your Dad still an Elder? My Father-in-law was an Elder at their Presbyterian church.

No, my dad passed away about 30 years ago. I still miss his sense of humor. It seems no one tells jokes anymore…

 

[SingleMomMonica]

For example, this thought just occured to me. When wafers are used, is the bread broken and distributed, as it was broken and distributed at the Last Supper? Yet we use wafers (sometimes in the church I grew up in) and at Mass.

The Roman Catholic Church, is one of the Rites of the Catholic Church which use unleavened bread rather than leavened bread as many of the other Catholic Rites use which you are referring to, as many Catholics do, as a wafer.

If you attend a Roman Catholic Mass, Catholic or not you are welcome to visit, and sit up close to the front, you will see with your own eyes, that the Priest, as did Jesus, breaks the “wafer” of unleavened bread.

And thanks . I’m glad to be here as well!

 

[Cat]

I grew up evangelical Protestant, and was raised on sola Scriptura.

I think you’re all reading much too much into sola Scriptura, and the tone of a lot of the posts in this thread is rather superior-sounding and snotty. If I were still evangelical Protestant, I would be shaking my head and saying, “You need to study the doctrine of sola Scriptura before drawing conclusions about it.”

In the evangelical Protestant churches, we were always taught that if the Bible is silent, there is freedom. Since the Bible doesn’t specifically say, “You must use alcoholic wine when you celebrate Communion,” there is freedom to use grape juice, which is fruit of the vine.

*Sola Scriptura *doesn’t mean that Protestants are supposed to imitate everything that was done back in Jesus’ day. If that were the case, we would celebrate communion while reclining around a low table, and we would wear those robe-like garments. And I’m not sure about this, but since there were no women present at the Last Supper, we women probably wouldn’t be admitted, if we did it like Jesus did it.

My explanation of why grape juice is used is that many evangelicals do not use any alcohol at all and would object to the terrible taste and smell of wine. There would be coughing and sneezing, and noses plugged by fingers and even gagging and hurling.

Yes, I know that those of you who drink wine think it tastes and smells divine. But those of us who don’t drink it think it smells like cat pee. Most of us have never tasted it, so we can’t tell you how bad it tastes, but we’re convinced it must taste terrible if smells like cat pee (we would never try cat pee either.)

You simply have to put yourself into the shoes of the teetotalers and try to see how THEY would feel about real wine being used. Yecch!

If you can’t empathize with others, well, that’s too bad. Perhaps it would be easier for you to imagine some food that you really really hate, but other people love. E.g., Peeps. I love Peeps and I can easily eat two dozen at a sitting, and then have more for dessert. But I know that many of my friends get sick to their stomach at the very thought of taking a bite out of a Peep!

And no matter how many times Peep Eaters like me try to convince their Peeptotaler friends that Peeps are sublime, food of the very gods, the sweetest of the sweet and positively orgasmic in the pleasure they bring about–well, Peeptotalers will turn away in disgust and say, “Get that sugary thing out of my face!” NOTHING will convince them that Peeps are worth a bite.

So alcohol to a teetotaler is like Peeps to a Peeptotaler Does that help clarify why many Protestant don’t use alcohol?

Of course, as another poster mentioned earlier, a lot is changing in the evangelical Protestant churches, and nowadays, you’ll find Protestants who will drink wine and beer and even the harder stuff. I personally find this kind of sad. Oh, well, as long as they don’t drive drunk and kill innocent people like me and my loved ones, I don’t really care. It’s between them and God.

 

[JonNC]

Thanks, but do you know what their percentage is within the entire Protestant world?

Wikipedia (I know, I know ) puts protestantism at roughly 700 million, so Lutherans are something at or just above 10%. Anglicans are not part of that total as they are not considered part of the protestant movement.

You are correct! The Protestants get those dates from the Catholic Church. Great point! Yet another area where Protestants fail to live up to their own “Sola Scriptura” doctrine.

This statement would assume that sola scriptura, properly understood, eliminates Tradition. Properly understood, it does not.

Jon

 

[mystified]

Since the Last Supper was a Passover Feast, would the wine that Jesus turned into His Blood, not have been Passover (Kosher) Wine? The Jewish wine regulations have not changed, and today’s Passover Wine is made under explicit rules, and it does contain alcohol.
As for alcohol content of present-day altar wines, it can vary greatly, from about 10% up to maybe as much as 14%. At the altar, before being confected at the words of Jesus by the priest, a little water is added. It is highly unlikely that anyone child or adult is going to get drunk on the alcohol content of a sip of the Precious Blood from the chalice.
Someone taking some brands of cough medicine may be getting more alcohol than from Holy Communion.

 

[geometer]

Since the Last Supper was a Passover Feast, would the wine that Jesus turned into His Blood, not have been Passover (Kosher) Wine? The Jewish wine regulations have not changed, and today’s Passover Wine is made under explicit rules, and it does contain alcohol.
As for alcohol content of present-day altar wines, it can vary greatly, from about 10% up to maybe as much as 14%. At the altar, before being confected at the words of Jesus by the priest, a little water is added. It is highly unlikely that anyone child or adult is going to get drunk on the alcohol content of a sip of the Precious Blood from the chalice.
Someone taking some brands of cough medicine may be getting more alcohol than from Holy Communion.

The regulations about Kosher Passover wines did change. It is now allowable to have a small percentage of wood alcohol in the wine.

I believe that I have an allergy to wood alcohol. Not long ago I was at the altar of an episcopalian church, and priest prepared a large silver chalice with Merlot wine.

Well, all of us were so drunk on the fumes comming from the wine, before any of us had even tasted the wine, we began laughing out loud for several minutes before we went on with the service…

True story…

 

[JonNC]

=Cat;4805389]I grew up evangelical Protestant, and was raised on sola Scriptura.

I think you’re all reading much too much into sola Scriptura, and the tone of a lot of the posts in this thread is rather superior-sounding and snotty. If I were still evangelical Protestant, I would be shaking my head and saying, “You need to study the doctrine of sola Scriptura before drawing conclusions about it.”

In the evangelical Protestant churches, we were always taught that if the Bible is silent, there is freedom. Since the Bible doesn’t specifically say, “You must use alcoholic wine when you celebrate Communion,” there is freedom to use grape juice, which is fruit of the vine.

“After supper He took the cup…” This, to me, is a pretty good indication that it is what Christ intended for us to do. The Bible is not silent on this issue, though I agree generally with your contention that sola scriptura is not the modern American “evangelical” solo scriptura, often the source of caricature here.

My explanation of why grape juice is used is that many evangelicals do not use any alcohol at all and would object to the terrible taste and smell of wine. There would be coughing and sneezing, and noses plugged by fingers and even gagging and hurling.

Maybe I hang around CAF too much, but this Lutheran thinks it better receive under the bread only than use grape juice.

E.g., Peeps. I love Peeps and I can easily eat two dozen at a sitting, and then have more for dessert. But I know that many of my friends get sick to their stomach at the very thought of taking a bite out of a Peep!

Me too. Wanna share a gross???

Of course, as another poster mentioned earlier, a lot is changing in the evangelical Protestant churches, and nowadays, you’ll find Protestants who will drink wine and beer and even the harder stuff. I personally find this kind of sad. Oh, well, as long as they don’t drive drunk and kill innocent people like me and my loved ones, I don’t really care. It’s between them and God

My dad was a Lutheran pastor, often had a drink with dinner after church, or a beer in the evening. I think it was one of the joys of life for him.

Jon

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Christ is being sarcastic here in comparing HIMSELF to the behavior of John the Baptist.

Jesus is specifically saying what the Jews accused St. John the Baptist of and what they accused Him of. Sure it is silly their false accusations against both St. John the Baptist and Christ, but the accusations were made.

You’re beginning to remind me of the verse of the Bible which warns us against those who twist the words of the Bible to their own destruction.

No I didn’t overlook anything. I know the Bible in Greek and I know this passage. Maybe you should keep reading.

You are Greek! Wonderful. So am I. Which Greek Publishing Company did you use to obtain your copy of the Bible in Greek? I’m being silly here, because I’m nearly certain that you do not speak Greek fluently and even if you were taught a small amount of Greek, it was probably taught to you by a non-Greek, probably a Protestant Christian at that who has no true understanding of the Bible, who doesn’t know the Greek language inside and out which makes it pointless.

I was Roman Catholic for over 40 years.
Being Roman Catholic for over 40 years and failing to attend daily Mass or at least reading every day the Bible readings assigned to that day and failing learn the Bible is a shame! You would be the only one to blame for that, not the Catholic Church. I’m come across too many former Catholics that falsely blame the Church for their own failure to practice their Catholic Faith - their failure to learn the Bible which is a Catholic book. If you fall into this category of those playing the “blame game” which was started with Adam and Eve - the first people to “pass the buck”, then you need to really examine your heart before God and accept personal responsibility for your failure and repent. Turn back to God Who loves you so dearly and to the Catholic Church He created for your own salvation.

 

[Jennifer_G]

I asked this question a long, long time ago when I was an altar server at my old Lutheran church. They had grape juice as an option for those in AA (Alcoholics Anonymous) so that they didn’t have to drink the wine. I guess they didn’t want to tempt them with the taste. (I usually drank the grape juice if it was available since I didn’t like the taste of wine)

 

[JonNC]

I wonder where I could find statistics on how many recovering alcoholics went back to drinking simply because of a small drop of His precious blood. Most Lutheran parishes will allow one to dip just a drop from the chalice onto the bread (intinction).
Jon

btw, I want to truly thank very Catholic on this thread. Everyone of you has refrained from mentioning the Catholic teaching that our Eucharist is not valid. I know that is what you believe, but it was nice to talk about the Eucharist without that particular angle.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

First of all wine is wine is wine the process for wine making has changes very little over the centuries. Sine I was nor any one here was there to run alcohol level test on the wine 2000 years ago I would say that the the levela are close if not higher than now.

Second there was no such thing as grape juice till the late 1800 early 1900’s as it was a Methodist minister Welch “welches grape juice” that invented it to serve to his dinner guess because he did not think people should drink alcohol.

Third "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities. " (1 Timothy 5:23)

So we have Christ turning water to wine and St Paul saying to drink wine.

As for the sake of children it is only the puritanical stance of the USA that would see a problem with it. Also we must remember than though it appears still as wine it is in reality the Blood of Christ. So of no harm to the Child nor the Alcoholic.

Also to address the poster on the receiving just the Body does not the Body contain blood and like wise the blood contains the the body so you receive both even if only under one form or the other.

 

[geometer]

First of all wine is wine is wine the process for wine making has changes very little over the centuries. Sine I was nor any one here was there to run alcohol level test on the wine 2000 years ago I would say that the the levela are close if not higher than now.

Well, the wine of 2000 years ago was not stronger. Fermentation of the grape juice is a natural process which is strictly limited by the death of the yeast. Wine begins as grape juice, and then the yeast dies when the level of alcohol reaches about 12%.

Modern wine is much more intoxicating because of the 1% wood alcohol additive. Wood alcohol is ten times more toxic than grain alcohol.

Best regards,

Vincent

P.S.

The Jews of Jesus time fermented their wine in ceramic jars, instead of wooden vats, as the Romans did. So, Jewish wine was never contaminated by wood alcohol from rotting vats.

At the time wood alcohol contamination was a very serious problem in the Roman empire, and the Romans sought various cures without knowing that the problem was with the wine. Kosher salt, oddly enough, was one of the remedies that the Romans thought would cure the problem.

 

[jblake]

SingleMomMonica;:

practicing a Tradition not found in the Bible by using Grape Juice rather than Wine for Holy Communion.

In the US,the blame for this probably belongs to the Federal Government. Prohibition killed the entire debate about whether grape juice, or wine was more in accordance with what was practised by the New Testament Church. Since, for all practical purposes, only grape juice was available for communion, that was what was used. When Prohibition ended, very few people wanted to re-ignite that debate.

In some parts of the united states, lawyers for churches recommended not using wine, simply because the cost of compliance with state and county liquor laws was too expensive.

Arguments in favour of grape juice range from “avoiding the appearance of evil”, to “wine is something that is blemished, and as such, unacceptable to God.”

jonathon

 

[Ghoti]

My explanation of why grape juice is used is that many evangelicals do not use any alcohol at all and would object to the terrible taste and smell of wine. There would be coughing and sneezing, and noses plugged by fingers and even gagging and hurling.

Yes, I know that those of you who drink wine think it tastes and smells divine. But those of us who don’t drink it think it smells like cat pee. Most of us have never tasted it, so we can’t tell you how bad it tastes, but we’re convinced it must taste terrible if smells like cat pee (we would never try cat pee either.)

And no matter how many times Peep Eaters like me try to convince their Peeptotaler friends that Peeps are sublime, food of the very gods, the sweetest of the sweet and positively orgasmic in the pleasure they bring about–well, Peeptotalers will turn away in disgust and say, “Get that sugary thing out of my face!” NOTHING will convince them that Peeps are worth a bite.

Hmmm…can you imagine an apostle reacting this way at the Last Supper?

Jesus: Take this, all of you, and drink from it…
Unnamed Apostle: Ew! Get that icky stuff out of my face!

Of course, as another poster mentioned earlier, a lot is changing in the evangelical Protestant churches, and nowadays, you’ll find Protestants who will drink wine and beer and even the harder stuff. I personally find this kind of sad. Oh, well, as long as they don’t drive drunk and kill innocent people like me and my loved ones, I don’t really care. It’s between them and God.

Are you implying that consumption of alcohol is sinful?

 

[jblake]

oneGODoneCHURCH;:

“welches grape juice” that invented it to serve to his dinner guess because he did not think people should drink alcohol.

It was first created in 1863, specifically for communion. Back then, churches were leading the Temperance Movement. It is somewhat hypocritical to use wine for Communion, whilst preaching against the use of wine.

Oddly enough, grape juice for Communion did not make for a profitable business. Grape juice as a wine substitute for social occasions, did make for a profitable business.

jonathon