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Roman_Catholic_1
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- Overeating leads to gluttony.
- Gluttony is an appearance of evil.
- Food contributes to evil.
God bless
Protestant Innovation - Protestants please explain your Innovated Tradition of using Grape Juice rather than Wine for Holy Communion
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God bless
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Cluny
Guest
So because of all the evil that alcohol has caused we do not want contribute to that evil.
Do the evils that food causes stop you from participating in dinner on the grounds or church picnics?
No. It’s because it’s GLUTTONY that’s the sin, not eating in and of itself. (Though I will say that in my experience as a Baptist before I got saved, gluttony was one sin that was socially approved, and even encouraged.)
In the same way, it’s DRUNKEDNESS that’s the sin, not drinking in and of itself.
In any case, what do you get when you crush grapes?
If you think it’s just grape juice, you’re wrong. You get WINE because fermentation starts immediately.
Do the evils that food causes stop you from participating in dinner on the grounds or church picnics?
No. It’s because it’s GLUTTONY that’s the sin, not eating in and of itself. (Though I will say that in my experience as a Baptist before I got saved, gluttony was one sin that was socially approved, and even encouraged.)
In the same way, it’s DRUNKEDNESS that’s the sin, not drinking in and of itself.
In any case, what do you get when you crush grapes?
If you think it’s just grape juice, you’re wrong. You get WINE because fermentation starts immediately.
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Cluny
Guest
I’m glad you didn’t buy into that since, it is very clear in the New Testament that their wine was strong - look at the conversations over the strength of the wine at the Wedding of Cana where Jesus did His first miracle…where He made the water turn to Very Strong Wine!
Forgive me, Monica, but you’re mistaken.
Wine is and always has been 11-14% alcohol (I’m not talking about champagne or fortified wines here).
Any higher, and the alcohol will kill the yeast and stop fermentation. (At what level of alcohol this happens depends on the strain of yeast.)
The fermentation of wine has not changed since Jesus’s time.
Forgive me, Monica, but you’re mistaken.
Wine is and always has been 11-14% alcohol (I’m not talking about champagne or fortified wines here).
Any higher, and the alcohol will kill the yeast and stop fermentation. (At what level of alcohol this happens depends on the strain of yeast.)
The fermentation of wine has not changed since Jesus’s time.
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ufamtobie
Guest
So you are saying you are above Jesus Christ because you don’t drink wine?
Are you saying Jesus is evil for drinking wine and not only drinking wine but it was Jesus’s first miracle truning water into wine.
Ufamtobie
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ufamtobie
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ufamtobie
Guest
Perhaps but the Lutheran and Anglicans wine is only wine and the Eucharistic wine is the Blood of Jesus Christ.
Ufamtobie
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ufamtobie
Guest
Monica please show me in scripture where it states Jesus used WINE. Actually save your time because it doesn’t. The only thing we have to go by is the saying fruit of the vine. Which interestingly Jesus refers to the cup as fruit of the vine even after HE supposedly consecrates it. But that’s another thread
ndfan,
(Matthew 11: 18, 19) For John came neither eating nor drinking; and they say: He hath a devil. 19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say: Behold a man that is a glutton and a wine drinker, a friend of publicans and sinners. And wisdom is justified by her children.
ndfan, above Jesus Christ says he came EATING he DRINKING. ndfan, now what was Jesus Christ doing in the “Last super”?
Surely he was Eating and if he was Eating then he also was drinking at the Last super and the Drink was wine. How do I know this? Jesus Christ said above “HE CAME EATING AND DRINKING WINE” which is the fruit of the vine. Jesus Does consecrates it.
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Cat
Guest
No, I can’t imagine an apostle reacting this way at the Last Supper, because they were used to drinking wine. Evangelical Protestants are NOT used to consuming any alcohol (at least, not until recent years). I thought I explained this in my post.
Ghoti:4806037:
No, but it is unpleasant for many of us. Did you not understand my use of the analogy of Peeps? Many people find Peeps absolutely disgusting and will not eat them under any circumstances. Ditto for people like me who find alcohol under ANY circumstances absolutely disgusting. Not sinful, just icky.
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Cat
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I beg you and others not to use this example.
Many Christians, including me, struggle constantly with this. I always debate with myself whether I should confess a sin of gluttony or not, but I honestly don’t think I am a glutton.
It’s easier to drink alcohol moderately or not at all than it is to eat moderately, because there are so many situations (work, school, etc.) where drinking alcohol is prohibited for good reasons. But food is allowed and encouraged almost everywhere in U.S. culture, including church! AND–we can’t “abstain” from food! That would be so much easier than trying to find a diet that actually works. But people who abstain don’t always lose weight, either. Arrgh, it’s so frustrating!
We struggle with the question of whether our obesity is present because of sin or because of disease. Alcoholism is considered a disease, and only in recent years has research begun to indicate that obesity might be caused by pathology.
I personally believe that immoderate behavoir, which is a sin, can lead to the disease process in both alcohol use and food use, but that’s just my personal theory. In other words, people start out drinking moderately, and then those who have the “alcohol gene” (or whatever) find that they cannot stop. And I think the same thing happens with food–people start out overeating, and then discover that their “obesity gene” (or whatever) makes it extremely difficult for them to eat moderately. BUT–there are many obese people who don’t eat much at all–??!
One theory is that obese people are colonized by different strains of gut flora (bacteria) than the thin people are. Studies in mice demonstrated that the gut flora can be “switched” and the obese mice became thin again. Interesting, and I hope that more research is done on this theory, and some practical applications are forthcoming. Wouldn’t it be funny if those “colon-cleansing” commercials are correct after all?!
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Cat
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I ask that you and others please put aside your pre-conceptions and try to look objectively at this issue and the people involved. Try to understand the people involved and stop judging them.
Please try to understand that for evangelical Protestants, it’s not just the alcohol. It’s the entire culture that surrounds drinking–going to bars (and restaurants that serve liquor) and theaters, going to movies, listening to jazz, rock, and other forms of “worldly” music, dancing, wearing sexy clothes (for women, wearing slacks), flirting, going to sporting events on Sundays, “mixing” with non-Christians, playing cards, gambling, wasting time,etc.
This entire “lifestyle” was and still is forbidden in many evangelical and fundamental churches. It’s not just the drinking, it’s all these other things that drinking was and still is associated with.
It’s not that Protestants consider(ed) themselves “superior” or “above” any of these people. No, it’s that we–and I count myself among them, because I was evangelical Protestant for most of my life–are trying to come out from among them and act circumspectly and wisely. Go ahead and point out all the verses that demonstrate Christ’s interaction with “drinkers,” but the evangelical Protestant can point out just as many verses that tell us to avoid worldly behavior and places where evil can and does happen.
In our city, many fights and murders, rapes and assaults, and thefts occur in bars. We had three bars shut down by the mayor this winter because of shots fired, or in one case, a fatal stabbing. This kind of thing doesn’t happen at Swedish Baptist Church Coffee Klatches in the Fellowship Hall!
And of course, there’s the whole issue of drunken driving. People who don’t drink alcohol (including Nyquil and other cold remedies) will NEVER be implicated in a drunk driving accident.
And there’s the issue of women drinking. In the past, it was often the husband who would be in a position to “go drinking,” while the wife stayed home with the kids. This was not acceptable in many evangelical Protestant churches.
I see nothing wrong with trying to stay away from activities that are associate with sinful activities. There are plenty of alternatives for Christians, and many evangelicals, as you know, have created entire worlds of “Christian” lifestyles, where no one drinks and a really great fellowship includes sing-alongs (Singspirations), board games, testimonies, and coffee cake. I really miss those.
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O.S.Luke
Guest
What a ridiculous thread.
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Cat
Guest
Why?
Do you have any idea what a stumbling block liquor is for many Protestants? Can you possibly understand how objectionable many Protestants (evangelical, fundamental, and Pentecostal) find alcohol use?
I would venture to say that one reason why for many years, Protestants did not associate much with Catholics or consider them true Christians was because they drank alcohol socially.
It would be worthwhile trying to get a grasp on this issue for the sake of knowing what you face when you are evangelizing evangelical Protestants. As I mentioned, there are changes in the evangelical Protestant fellowships, and the total abstainance from alcohol is not necessarily expected anymore. But there are still many, MANY Protestants in the evangelical, fundamental, and Pentecostal camps who WILL not accept alcohol use by Christians. To them, YOU are not a Christian, or you are a carnal Christian.
It’s worth knowing that, I think.
Alcohol use in the Catholic Church was probably in the top three of my list of objections against becoming Catholic. It wasn’t Mary or the saints, it certainly wasn’t True Presence or the Authority of the Pope or the “extra” books in the Catholic Bible. No, it was alcohol use, not only by Catholics, but in the Church itself at socials. I had and have no objection to real wine use in Holy Communion, although I am grateful that I do not have to receive the Cup to receive Jesus in Holy Communion.
I still do not like to attend Catholic socials because of the use of alcohol. I am not saying that it’s a sin. I’m saying that I find it objectionable and that it is highly unlikely that I will ever fully accept the use of alcohol by anyone, but especially by Christians.
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a_sinner
Guest
Just FYI (For anyone reading). For us Roman Catholics, The Blessed Sacrament, that is The Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ, is present in it’s fullness in both species of The Most Holy Eucharist, i.e. The Bread and The Wine, One does not have to drink The Wine, in order to be fully united with Our Lord in the fullness of Communion. So those for whom the consumption of alcoholic beverages, may open them to temptation of some sort, such as folks struggling with alcoholism, only need eat The Bread.
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jblake
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Cat;:
jonathon
Back in the eighties I worked for an outfit whose unofficial motto was “eating food is optional”. Basically, it sold water, and nutritional supplements. Not your run of the mill multi-vitamin, but a massive array of powders and liquids, from which one could construct a “meal” that was easily modified for whatever one was doing that day. The biggest downside was its costs. US$2K per person, per month, for somebody who didn’t require the “expensive” supplements.
jonathon
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IowaJay
Guest
AAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH
Please read this post:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4805608&postcount=55
And, while you’re at it, please look at the quote from Cardinal Ratzinger in JonNC’s signature line.
And then, if you still stand by what you posted, explain why you think you know more about where God is and is not, than a man who became Pope.
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Arclight
Guest
This seems to be the best argument on the thread and I think it has gone unanswered.
Reading the phrase “fruit of the vine” in this context would mean wine to any one living at the time or any reader familiar with Passover rites, and seems like just a more poetic and formal way of referring to wine.
I’ve read about wine and wine exports all over the Mediterranean world, but I can’t recall any reference to grape juice, is “grape juice” even a part of the literature of the time?
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SingleMomMonica
Guest
I could see how in the Protestant Churches people who are Alcoholics would have to abstain from the Communion Wine (if Wine is actually used) because it has not been consecrated by a real priest and therefore is still just the Wine it appears to be and is Not the Blood of Our Lord Jesus. In the Catholic Church is not and never has been an issue.
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geometer
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Well, wine is the juice of grapes. Natural grape juice firments over a period of about 21 days…
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spoiltvictorian
Guest
Has any Evangelical Protestant an answer to unfermented grape juice being a modern innovation dating to a little after the American Civil War? Talk about revisionist history.
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Arclight
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Really?
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