Protestant Innovation - Protestants please explain your Innovated Tradition of using Grape Juice rather than Wine for Holy Communion
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geometer
Guest
I think I know what you are saying. He may have really meant that his bood is wine and his body is bread, instead of the other way around…
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mercygate
Guest
WOOD alcohol??? Is this for real? I can’t believe the kosher folks would sit still for that. And Communion wine must be made from nothing but nothing but grapes.
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mercygate
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If you were Catholic under the Mass of Paul the VI and attended daily Mass, you would have heard 73% of Scripture over the course of three years. The parts that are left out are duplicative and connecting passages . . . You must have been a pre-Vatican 2 Catholic. Or perhaps daily Mass was not part of your practice.
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geometer
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It is true. Check the label on a bottle of Kosher wine, or any wine and it will have listed a small percentage of other alcohol, less than 3%. Three percent is lethal…
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mercygate
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J. Vernon McGee – a very good Fundamentalist, whose radio broadcasts, “Through the Bible,” are still being aired 20 years after his death, even goes so far as to say that what Jesus made at Cana was not wine but WATER. He skips the whole grape juice issue entirely. McGee is excellent in many ways but on this one he tips right off the surface of the flat earth. I played the clip over and over trying to convince myself that he hadn’t really said that. But every time, it came back. Jesus filled the jars with WATER. :whacky:
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mercygate
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Interesting, since the Jews don’t have a problem with it.
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geometer
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Protestants will be protestants, I guess…
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mercygate
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OK. That’s too deep for me. http://www.theteacherscorner.net/forums/images/smilies/confused2.gif Isn’t that exactly what he says in John 6.
But this thread isn’t about whether wine should be used in the Lord’s Supper it is about how it came NOT to be used by Protestant sects.
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geometer
Guest
Well, whatever he meant, it was some kind of romantic ascertion. Considering the way it is stated in scripture, how do we know that he was not saying that his blood was to become wine and his body to become bread?:juggle:
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erigby27
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That does make some bit of difference, but you say that use of alcohol in Catholicism was a major stumbling block for you in converting. Something that is “gross” or “icky” wouldn’t normally be a major stumbling back, though maybe it could be a minor disappointment (for example, if someone does not enjoy the smell of incense, I see how he could call it gross, and disappointing, but not how he could consider it a major stumbling block for his conversion).
I can understand someone finding the willing consumption of a human’s Body and Blood “gross” (or even really really gross). In that circumstance, something “gross” could be a “major stumbling block”. That does not seem to be the case here.
When I was a young girl (I’m 19 now), I thought the taste of Our Lord’s Blood was “gross” but I nevertheless partook in it whenever I had the opportunity (and savored it) because I knew it was His Blood.
So much for sola scriptura.
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Cat
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Just to make things perfectly clear–I do not nor have I ever found the use of real wine in Holy Communion gross or upsetting. What I found upsetting, and still find upsetting, is the use of alcohol by Catholics in social and family settings–THIS was the stumbling block. Again, I want to make it clear that on an intellectual level I do not consider alcohol use a sin. But I personally find it upsetting–just like some of you find Peeps upsetting. (And I DO consider alcohol abuse a sin.)
Why should it matter to any of you? My dislike of your personal practice should make no difference in your continuance of that practice. Good chance we won’t be friends anyway, unless you like figure skating.
I’ve often wondered if more Protestants would take a serious look at Catholicism if Catholics stopped drinking. You know, I honestly think Protestants would be willing to at least take a look. I think the alcohol thing is a stumbling block for many Protestants, mainly the evangelicals/fundamentalists/Pentecostals. I think it would make a difference if they were to meet Catholic teetotalers. Maybe not. And I’m NOT saying that Protestants would break down the doors to rush into RCIA and become Catholic. But I think it’s possible that maybe, possibly, they would take the Church more seriously, just like they started taking the Church seriously after Roe v. Wade and watching the Catholic Church take on the pro-abortionists virtually alone for many years. That’s when I noticed that a lot of evangelical churches started saying good things about Catholics and the Catholic Church.
So the question I have for many of you is, “Would you be willing to give up alcohol if you KNEW that it meant the soul of a Protestant?”
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7_Sorrows
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actually, i think the anglican communion is larger than the lutheran church worldwide. the anglican communion also includes the episcopal church in the united states.
the catholic commmunion, the orthodox and then the anglican communion is the 3rd largest communion.
the episcopal church also serves wine with their communion and the wafer.
the anglican book of common prayer is a beautiful prayerbook.
yes, they are protestant in that they split from the Roman Catholic church and king henry viii formed his own church, the Church of England, and proclaimed himself the head of the church,
but they are still a sacramental church and it would be wonderful if someday the orthodox and the anglicans could resolve their disagreements and be in full communion with the RC once again.
You might be right in the numbers. Suffice it to say they are of similar size. I think the distinction that is made about not being protestant is that they are not of the protestant reformation, rooted in Luther, Calvin, Zwingli. Of course, the anabaptists aren’t either. The Lutheran Chruch is sacramental, also.
Jon
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7_Sorrows
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yes, i think you are right. and if the Catholic Church would have granted king henry viii his annullment, i don’t think he would have started his own church. i believe it disturbed him that he was excommunicated. i don’t think he had the same arguments with the church that Luther did. however, i think when he married
Anne, she had more of a protestant leaning.
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Ghoti
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Cat
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THANK YOU!!! By Jove, I think you’ve got it!
Seriously, this is such a nice post.
I’m truly not saying that all Catholics should give up their alcohol. All I’m saying is that it is useful, if you are trying to do the work of an evangelist, to understand who you are trying to evangelize.
Interestingly, I just returned from a visit to my old childhood evangelical Protestant church. I attended a concert–eight children, brothers and sisters, ranging in age from 7-22, performed a musical concert (their parents joined in at times) with everything from classical to spiritual to fun. Afterwards, we all went down to the Fellowship Hall and had cupcakes (really yummy cupcakes, almost as good as Peeps!), coffee, and non-alcoholic punch (Hawaiin Punch/7up and raspberry sherbert).
It was so much fun, and I socialized with dozens of people in the room that I grew up with, and I felt at HOME. This is the kind of thing that evangelicals do, and it’s so very nice. No alcohol needed, ever. We had a marvelous time together listening to those beautiful children sing and play, and eating homemade sweets, and talking and laughing together, and when we all broke up for the evening, we discovered that it is snowing, a beautiful fluffy snow. One of the old Swedes said, “It’s choost a haff inch.”.
It’s just inconceivable to me (and them, too, I think) why anyone needs or wants alcohol. I can’t even imagine why anyone would want it when the pleasures that we enjoyed this evening are so beautiful
I’m not dissing the Catholic Church–I love Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament more than children’s singing groups and cupcakes and chatter and snow. But there are times when I wish the Catholic Church could be a little more…evangelical. I would fit in better.
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Parce_Domine
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I know not ALL Protestants drink, but many do. Would they be willing to drink if they really believed it meant their soul? I don’t expect the ones I see buying beer at the grocery store to convert to Catholicism just because they drink, and I don’t expect my giving up a glass of wine at an installation banquet to influence them, either.
I understand the point you’re trying to make, Cat, but I find it difficult to believe that people would refuse to pursue the truth just because they’ve been taught that drinking alcohol is a sin. To be honest, what’s really difficult for me to understand is that Protestants ever started teaching that drinking is a sin at all. No doubt, drinking alcohol to excess is a sin; (drinking *anything *to excess is a form of gluttony and/or avarice). But you’re saying that just social drinking is a “major” stumbling block for people? It’s not that I don’t understand what you’re trying to say, but can’t you see why for some of us that’s hard to understand?
I’m glad you had a great time with your home church, but why would the people there (for example) assume that if we added alcohol to all that fun and fellowship, it would become evil or something?
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erigby27
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:clapping:
Thank you! This is my point.
Cat, I totally understand your discomfort with alcohol use. I could never expect anyone uncomfortable with alcohol to start drinking it (nor would I expect a former Muslim to start wolfing down pulled pork sandwiches), but recreational alcohol use has nothing to do with the fullness of truth offered by the RCC.
It shouldn’t even be a minor stumbling block to joining the Faith (though I understand it could be a stumbling block in choosing to socialize with Catholics, which has little to do with embracing the Faith). Something like that should not be a reason to refuse to “pursue the truth”.
I can’t imagine a Protestant converting to Catholicism just because Catholics all of a sudden stopped drinking. If that were a possible scenario, that would mean that some Protestants already know the RCC has the fullness of truth, and still reject it! That is a major problem. I will pray that such people can look past their own pride and accept the Catholic faith (for the sake of their own salvation)!
Peace!
O
oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
I see this has come to a discourse on drinking instead of why wine should be used instead of grape juice for the Eucharist. They have nothing to do with one another.
Not all Catholics consume Alcohol just as not all Protestants abstain from alcohol. Also the wine ( thought it may appear to still be wine) is no longer wine it is the blood of Christ. And therefore non of the discussion over alcohol is relevant to Communion.
Do we also forget that we are not going up and chugging the Precious Blood, we take but a small sip.
NO WERE IN Scripture is there any prohibition on the consumption of alcohol by the populace. what is prohibited is being a drunkard there is a difference.
Not all Catholics consume Alcohol just as not all Protestants abstain from alcohol. Also the wine ( thought it may appear to still be wine) is no longer wine it is the blood of Christ. And therefore non of the discussion over alcohol is relevant to Communion.
Do we also forget that we are not going up and chugging the Precious Blood, we take but a small sip.
NO WERE IN Scripture is there any prohibition on the consumption of alcohol by the populace. what is prohibited is being a drunkard there is a difference.
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