Protestant interpretations...

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

I’ll repeat in a previous post where beyond any shadow of doubt that the Holy Spirit leads each individual, one at a time, to the truth concerning God? The ability to repent is a gift of God; for no one seeks after God because men love darkness.

We are also getting into an area of paradox, where two things that appear to oppose each other are both true. [SIGN]For eBible, man or God, both. xample, who wrote the These things are limited in understanding by our human natures,[/SIGN] which prevents the fullness of understanding. The work of salvation is all of God; yet man is condemned for rejecting God by his own choice, but has anyone ever given an ounce of credit to themselves for being saved or do we in our prayers thank God alone?

The sovereignty of God’s “will” always trumps or is better than mans will. People who cannot accept God’s divine election of some, but not of others, goes against their human nature of what is fair; therefore they reject the doctrine and will say I don’t believe in a God is unfair, yet they forget that God would be just if He let everyone who did not meet His perfect standard to perish without Him, which is hell, the eternal separation from God. The only exception would be the Jesus. People also do not recognize that creation is all about God displaying His glory and humans are secondary to the primary. God is glorified in displaying His mercy as well as His justice.

Lets start here. Not he isn’t. ITs quite clear. Man may have wrote the bible as far as writing down the words. But man was led by the Holy Spirit. LEts get that straight. God is not limited to understanding by human nature. That is why we have to be led by the Holy Spirit. Human Nature will never understand. That is a perfect example why you are a failure in understanding scriputre on your own. (but don’t feel bad ME TOO!)

Secondly Gods will never ever ever trump mans will. If he did, there would never be sin. If he did God could never say he gives man FREE WILL. That would make God a liar. Which we both know he is NOT. SO please do not say God takes away free will. The devil has proved that point. ANd also you conradicted yourself in saying that cannot accept. IF they Cannot accept that means free will! To have free will means you cannot and will not accept!

To not have free will means you WILL ACCEPT!

 

[rinnie]

How about communion?

Jesus commanded we take the bread and the wine until he returns.

Catholics decided the bread was sufficient and withheld the wine.

Yet , Hebrew 9:22 states: …without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Ginger honestly do you receive the bread and wine of our Lord every SUNDAY. I do. Where did Jesus say you must receive the Bread and WINE every single day, or every single Sunday. or every other day. Please help me here.

 

[Ginger2]

… Gods will never ever ever trump mans will. If he did, there would never be sin. If he did God could never say he gives man FREE WILL.

Whoa, God does indeed trump man’s freewill at times.

Remember when the people picked up stones to stone Jesus, but Jesus slipped away so they couldn’t kill him because his time had not yet come. Or when they were going to throw him off a cliff.

Was there no sin simply because God did not allow them to act? I think not.

Mat 5:28
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully
has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Ginger

 

[Luke65]

I laughed very hard as I have been following this discourse and was anxiously awaiting your response. I am a little disappointed…

True, Luke 65 did not show you where Paul taught “such nonsense”,

JB asked, “Can you show the traditions Paul spoke of that are not contained in the Biblical record?” So I showed him a tradition of St. Paul that was not mentioned in the Bible. So, since I gave exactly what JB asked for, I assume that you are laughing at and mocking a Saint in Heaven, a man who died a glorious martyr’s death for the name of Jesus Christ - St. Victorinus. Have you no fear of the Lord?

but my first thought was what difference does it make? Is salvation wrought through building churches in sevens??? Is breaking a mirror seven years bad luck?

Who, exactly, was Paul trying to trick when he needed to write an eighth letter to a church by addressing that letter to an individual?

What about Paul’s second letter to Corinth? Does that make eight letters? And 2 Thess? Is that 9? Or is it permitted to write as many letters as you want as long as there are only seven recipients?

More mockery. Are you completely ignorant of the fact that God uses numbers symbolically? Are you completely unaware of Biblical numerology? And yet you speak - and mock? St. Victorinus pointed out the FACT that St. Paul wrote letters to 7 different churches. He did so while noting that St. John did the same thing in Revelation. And surely you noticed that this was by the command of our Lord? Do you not understand that by writing to 7 churches it symbolized the whole universal Church? You’re calling the work of God “nonsense”? Have you no fear of the Lord?

But JohnnyBeth asks a good question: Where is the proof Paul taught such nonsense?

I already addressed the absurdity of asking for something that’s not in the Bible, and then asking where it is in the Bible. But actually it is in the Bible - but it’s veiled. So I wont bother throwing out another pearl in front of you guys.

St. Victorinus???
The Catholic Encyclopedia says:
All his works have disappeared save extracts from his commentaries on Genesis and the Apocalypse, if indeed these texts are really a remnant of his works, concerning which opinions differ.

There you go again, throwing out misleading quotes that you have no understanding of. Show us a scholar who TODAY says that Victorinus did not write this book, or give it a rest.

St. Victorinus attributed the name “Catholic Church” to St. Paul. He didn’t say that Paul coined the term, just that he “taught” it. There is no evidence that Victorinus didn’t write this book. Indeed, St. Jerome translated it and expressed no doubt that it was the work of Victorinus, Bishop of Pettau. Furthermore, nobody at that time disputed the name “Catholic Church”, so there was no motivation for attributing the term to Paul, unless that was the tradition that was handed down to him, which he passed on to us. Go ahead and believe what you want to believe, but if I were you I would stop mocking God’s work and His people.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

I’ll repeat in a previous post where beyond any shadow of doubt that the Holy Spirit leads each individual, one at a time, to the truth concerning God? The ability to repent is a gift of God; for no one seeks after God[SIGN] because men love darkness. [/SIGN]We are also getting into an area of paradox, where two things that appear to oppose each other are both true. For example, who wrote the Bible, man or God, both. These things are limited in understanding by our human natures, which prevents the fullness of understanding. The work of salvation is all of God; yet man is condemned for rejecting God by his own choice, but has anyone ever given an ounce of credit to themselves for being saved or do we in our prayers thank God alone?

The sovereignty of God’s “will” always trumps or is better than mans will. People who cannot accept God’s divine election of some, but not of others, goes against their human nature of what is fair; therefore they reject the doctrine and will say I don’t believe in a God is unfair, yet they forget that God would be just if He let everyone who did not meet His perfect standard to perish without Him, which is hell, the eternal separation from God. The only exception would be the Jesus. People also do not recognize that creation is all about God displaying His glory and humans are secondary to the primary. God is glorified in displaying His mercy as well as His justice.

I am puzzled here also. That is not what he bible says. It say that those who follow Jesus are of the light not the darkness. Only those who are evil follow the darkness.

Do you not know that the darkness is of the devil, things that are hidden. And that the light are of which is God shown to all? Its like the color black. It is black but the opposite is white. If you add any white to black you will get gray.

the devils favorite color! When white appears you are unsure. He has a chance. But the more white you add becomes lighter and lighter and the Light appears!

 

[Ginger2]

Ginger honestly do you receive the bread and wine of our Lord every SUNDAY. I do. Where did Jesus say you must receive the Bread and WINE every single day, or every single Sunday. or every other day. Please help me here.

rinnie,

I was a Catholic from birth to my mid-twenties and never once was I offered the wine.

So, show me where, when the church decided both elements were unnecessary, they put time restrictions on it.

When they decided to withhold the wine, did the say for how long? Or just that one is good enough?

If I had stayed one more day, week, month, year, would I have been offered wine as Jesus commanded?

Ginger

 

[rinnie]

Whoa, God does indeed trump man’s freewill at times.

Remember when the people picked up stones to stone Jesus, but Jesus slipped away so they couldn’t kill him because his time had not yet come. Or when they were going to throw him off a cliff.

Was there no sin simply because God did not allow them to act? I think not.

Mat 5:28
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully
has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Ginger

Not one bit. The goodness of Jesus Christ OVERPOWERED the evil of man. BUt the Goodness did not overpower the will of Man. Althought they did not succeed that sin will be accounted for.

God wlll tell you Evil always loses. LOVE always wins.

And getting back to the Scripture you quoted. THANKS FOR THAT BY THE WAY. You just gave the perfect example of venial sin, and mortal sin.

Venial sin is the thought of wanting to sin. Mortal sin is the ACT of the sin.

God is the power to over power the thought. IF you just give him the chance.

Let me show you. Dear God please forgive me for wanting to disobey you. But thank-you my dear Lord for accepting my Prayer and the Prayer’s of the Saints who I asked for assistance from to not do the sin.

Outcome I had the chance, I wanted to do it, But by the teaching’s of the CHurch and the Power of the HS I did good. I did not do it! Will I die in moral sin, if I leave at this moment. NO I WILL NOT. If I reacted knowing it was mortal sin, and died right after YES I COULD!

 

[whm]

How about communion?

Jesus commanded we take the bread and the wine until he returns.

Catholics decided the bread was sufficient and withheld the wine.

The Body includes the Blood and is considered complete and sufficient. Note that, the priest consecrates and receives the Blood at every Mass. You know this though.

 

[Ginger2]

JB asked, “Can you show the traditions Paul spoke of that are not contained in the Biblical record?”

First, you didn’t show Paul taught that.
Second, If this is a Tradition, show me how it is being followed in the RC today.

 

[rinnie]

rinnie,

I was a Catholic from birth to my mid-twenties and never once was I offered the wine.

So, show me where, when the church decided both elements were unnecessary, they put time restrictions on it.

When they decided to withhold the wine, did the say for how long? Or just that one is good enough?

If I had stayed one more day, week, month, year, would I have been offered wine as Jesus commanded?

Ginger

Ginger if you were indeed Catholic. And in my heart I do believe you were. Do you not agree that the Pope and Bishops in communion had the right to take something away if it was indeed a danger to us?

There was a time with AIDS and other diseases that the Pope did not know Ginger. He is only human which we all agree. When it was agreed that it would not harm us it was again in the Church. The Pope has never said that he was God. Only that he is led by him. It is his right do you not agree, and not only his right his promise to God to put our soul in the right place with God. The pope has never denied science and said he knew it all. God revealed it THOUGH science that it would not harm us. So its back! How can you condemn him for that.

IF it was revealed to him by God sooner he would have revealed it to us God works through MANY ginger! Do you no agree?

 

[rinnie]

rinnie,

I was a Catholic from birth to my mid-twenties and never once was I offered the wine.

So, show me where, when the church decided both elements were unnecessary, they put time restrictions on it.

When they decided to withhold the wine, did the say for how long? Or just that one is good enough?

If I had stayed one more day, week, month, year, would I have been offered wine as Jesus commanded?

Ginger

Also Ginger I can tell you this I am ROMAN CAHOLIC. SO not that I dog or have anything negative to say about any other Catholic Church, because I don’t ! I only know Mine. Come. You will receive the Bread and Wine of Christ.

Now there are a few. (meaning the wine) I don’t know everything either Ginger )that they do not have it. But very few. But I promise to find out why. Trust me. Father loves me I do free work for the Church all the time. Thats what Father thinks. I will get him on that one, and for you my love, the correct answer. So See there is no free lunch after all

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

rinnie,

I was a Catholic from birth to my mid-twenties and never once was I offered the wine.

So, show me where, when the church decided both elements were unnecessary, they put time restrictions on it.

When they decided to withhold the wine, did the say for how long? Or just that one is good enough?

If I had stayed one more day, week, month, year, would I have been offered wine as Jesus commanded?

Ginger

Yep!

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

[SIGN][SIGN]You mean like those within the Catholic church are saved and those outside are damned, but explaining in more detail, the nonCatholics are separated brethern and can be saved by being in some union with the Chruch even if they do not know it. [/SIGN][/SIGN]
You are damned if you read a Protestant Bible or one in your own language; only the Latin Vatican approved edition is allowed to be read even though most of you cannot read it because it is for your own good…but explaining in detail, you can read a Bible that is Vatican approved and is Catholic, but you may not read that Protestant edition and especially that 1611 King James Version else you are damned.

Most ecf’s did not recognize a “vicar of Christ”, for He needs not one, but the few that did said it was the “Holy Spirit”, but explaining in detail, it was any Bishop, then explaining further, we have a new and exclusive office and the “vicar of Christ” is really this man we will call Pope.

Discalimer: this is one Chrsitians view and does not reflect the belief of all Chrsitians and no Christian except said Christian is responsible for the content of this post…all rights reserved. copyright 2009

Agan JB thank-you very very much for again sticking your foot in your mouth so far it will never come out.

Because I believe in some way this is the work of the HS in action. Because it lets me to explain once and for all what the Pope said.

The Pope said that if you are RC and it was revealed to you the FULLNESS OF THE TRUTH. Anotherward’s is you understand the Church’s teaching 100%. It has been not only been explained to you you see it with your own eyes but you still choose to ignore it your soul is in grave danger.

Let me give you a perfect example. I knew when I got married in the Church it was forever. Now unless there is some kind of abuse, my husband beat me or mentally abused me I am in it for keeps. I can’t say well the neighbor thinks I am hot. and makes more money. OR my husband got fat or hurt. (disabled) or age isn’t kind to him. No it don’t work and vice-versa.

I stood up in front of God and promised to Love this man until death do us part. And no matter what good times and bad if I ask God to help me I can make it work. Because God does not only make us promise to do something his grace helps us follow thru.

Now thats an example what the Pope was talking about. How could YOU again a Perfect example be held to something you cannot even begin to understand?

Now that’s what I call folks a good BINGO!

 

[panevino]

First, you didn’t show Paul taught that.
Second, If this is a Tradition, show me how it is being followed in the RC today.

not sure about traditions attributed to Paul… and i know i’ll probably get shot down in flames for this post on these, (my post is more of education process for me…)
isn’t the christian marriage ceremony (or alteast what is said by the preist) a tradition in a sense? that is not clearly spelled out in the bible

also the list of books in the NT, isn’t this also a form of a tradition that had been decided by the church (under guidance of HS ofcourse), which the bible itself obviously does not spell out

 

[Des]

Hey sorry you are offended and probably because you may have taken things completely out of context.

Offended? Certainly not. You’re a lost sheep Johnny so I’m more saddened than anything.

And wasn’t it you who was attempting to blame poor old Peter for teaching error. I could be wrong but I don’t believe I am.

I don’t qualify as a preacher - just an FYI

You didn’t have to tell me that.

However you are attempting to on this board. A preacher spreads the Gospel. That is what you do on here when you tell us for example OSAS is Christian Doctrine. Or maybe I’ll just call you our infallible Christian teacher.

Funny story today. I asked my non denom friend at work if he believes in that silly little doctrine of yours and he replied with a resounding no. The Holy Spirit tells him differently. Amazing ain’t it.
I just find it ridiculously funny how anyone who disagrees with your understanding of Scripture on key points don’t know God but Johnny almighty does. You seriously need to come down off that pedestal. Seriously!

Is the Catholic Church the visible church according to the Bible?

You already know the answer to that question or you haven’t been paying attention. It’s been talked about in this thread and others on this board. Do a search if you really want to understand the Scriptural reasoning behind it.

What do you mean by this statement? "It’s clear that the Spirit that will lead all into truth, isn’t working the same way with individuals such as us, as it did with the Apostles or the Visible Church."

The same Spirit you said Jesus breathed out to all of the Christians didn’t allow the Apostles to teach error correct? So, either you are likewise saying the Spirit ‘also’ leads you into all truth so that you interpret the Bible perfectly like the Apostles did as you claim, OR (and this is a big OR Johnny so make sure you’re sitting down ok), you ‘CAN’ error and HAVE erred in the past. If the latter, then the Holy Spirit is certainly not as you claim leading everyone, with that same ability the Apostles or the Visible Church was given which of course as you know is the Ground and Pillar of Truth.

Oh and where are all of those others disciples you claim were with the Apostles when Jesus breathed on them since they must have received the same Spirit you claim? They should have been out there preaching without error as well huh. I only know of the 12 though. Weird isn’t it.

And don’t worry, I know you will weasel out of this somehow throwing at us more verses out of context but I’m more curious as to which ones. Mm-hmm.

 

[Des]

also the list of books in the NT, isn’t this also a form of a tradition that had been decided by the church (under guidance of HS of course), which the bible itself obviously does not spell out

I once heard a protestant say that premarital sex being wrong wasn’t spelled out in the Bible either.

Besides, protestants can’t even decide whether divorce is ok or not panevino. So I wouldn’t be worried about their replies if any to you.

 

[LionHeart777]

JB,

if you don’t mind, I’m still waiting for evidence/ proof of your claim here:

Just do a thorough study of your saints you pray to; they can’t wipe them away without admitting error; yet a detailed study shows a good portion are based on myth or legend. Rather than admitting they made a mistake in calling a saint that does not exist and remove it; they continue to publish the names and the myths and the legends. If you were to study greek and roman mythology you would find quite a few saints that really reseemble Roman saints. The question is why? Do you know when must of the praying to the saints originates? Anyway I want to avoid Catholic bashing it makes no sense and helps no one and is not Christlike. I believe it is worth pointing out that it.

you seem to be making a few positive claims; at least it seems to me that you are claiming:

– a “good porton” of the Saints never existed

– the Catholic Church is covering this up rather than admit they made a mistake

– at least some Catholic Saints are borrowed from Greek/Roman mythology

if it is not a big deal, I was just looking for your proof on this matter via a P.M.

 

[JohnnyBeth]

The Calvinist is saying the same thing about you…“Oh my goodness, why doesn’t that Jonnybeth get it! He’s SO wrong… Its so plain in Scripture!”.

What if you are as Proverbs said, “Leaning on your own understanding…” Can you look yourself in the mirror and say without a doubt that you are NOT leaning on your own understanding?

• Michael

She, not he

I have no understanding except that which God has graced me with.

 

[JohnnyBeth]

Michael, nice talking with you; you show no serious interest in Scripture, therefore there is no point in further discussing the things of God with you; you show a lack of interest as I see it. Have a good day

Micheal,

I’m sorry I said that yesterday; please forgive me and I do apolgize.

JB

 

[Ginger2]

I once heard a protestant say that premarital sex being wrong wasn’t spelled out in the Bible either.

I once heard a Catholic say you can get to heaven without Jesus on this forum!