Protestant Questions About Purgatory

[JonNC]

Do your Lutheran ‘ordained’ priests lie prostate in front of the Blessed Sacrament for long periods of time as the Catholic priests do when they are ordained? This is one sight that brings tears to my eyes. It is so holy.

It sounds like it, and I honor their response to their calling. While Luther acknowledged a place for adoration, Lutherans generally don’t practice it, as I’m sure you know.

Jon

 

[grandfather]

The issue of apostolic succession is a significant debate amongst Lutherans. I come down on the side of it is certainly important, because I believe that if we (Lutherans) are truly reformationists, and not merely protestants, then one of our most important continuing missions must be unity.

It is an area of personal reflection for me, and intricate in the personal debate of where I am and where I need to be. And while neither you, Grandfather, nor cathdefender will ultimately convince me (that will come from prayer and the HS), I am listening to your points of view.

That does not detract from my certainty that Christ works through our clergy in the sacraments, confession and absolution, etc.

Finally, I agree with Rome on ordination of women. I find it ironic that, on the one hand those who favor women priests complain that the Catholic Church is sexist, while on the other hand your church is criticized by some for placing to much emphasis on the BVM.

Jon

You are conflicted. Your church ordains women, or attempts to. You disagree with your church. If Rome and you are right the Church has no power to ordain women. If Rome and you are right, you belong to a denomination that has invalid Orders, claiming women are validly ordained and can confect their Eucharist. Its not my Eucharist, or The Eucharist, because women can not be ordained or perform any of the sacamental functions reserved for the ordained priesthood.

I certainly don’t know what goes on inside the Lutheran Church. It seems from the little I do know that there is a recent appeal in some circles towards embracing the need for Orders. This is new. All the Lutherans I knew growing up and in my adult life, including family, always told me there is no such thing. I was told Lutherans believe in two sacraments since the time of Luther. Now you are telling me you believe Christ works in your church through the sacraments, confession and absolution, that these are the real deal as are your Orders. Well you are up to four. This is new and has not been the constant position of Lutheranism, or a universal position within the denomination. The minister I met affirmed this. Another Lutheran minister (female) was writing in on another Catholic chat room and thought that Rome even questioning the validity of her ordination was an outrage. I was very polite, but she was hilarious.

I see a move towards Catholicism within Lutheranism as witnessed by a change in position among some Lutherans on the question of Holy Orders, and now some are saying confession should be practiced. Maybe a better way to say that is a move toward a more Catholic understanding. At the same time other innovations such as ordaining women are widespread within the denomination and moving it away from Catholicism.

It will be interesting to see where this leads. The same thing is going on in Anglicanism. It is interesting that these are the first two denominations to break the unity of Christendom.

 

[Protestant101]

But only a Catholic priest can grant you absolution.

Only Jesus Christ can!!

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

There simply is no need for the fictitous torture chambers of so called “purgatory.” “Purgatory” has nothing to do with cleansing us from sin:

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Not just some sins! Not just “venial sins” not just “mortal sins;” but “ALL SIN.”

 

[grandfather]

I guess we Lutherans have a similar catechetical deficiency as some Catholics here complain about in your church. Tell them to read the confessions, for goodness sake!

I suspect the ordination process in the LCMS is not too terribly dissimilar to the Catholic Church, but I honestly don’t know much about your orders.

Jon

Jon,
If all it should take to settle this inter-Lutheran dispute is reading the confessions, why is it that Lutheran ministers within their synod are driven “apoplectic” lately arguing over the topic or Orders, according to a minister who was involved? If its a no-brainer settled by the authority of their founder’s writings (sola), why all the stress? Appealing to the confessions is a contradiction of your own doctrine. The confessions have no authority within Lutheranism. The only thing to which you may appeal is scripture. Right? Luther has no more authority to proclaim doctrine than the pope, or me or you. All authority is in scripture. Don’t forget that.

By the way, The Catholic Church’s position on Lutheran Orders is that there might be some, a small percentage, that are valid. Back in the day when apostolic succession was scrapped by Lutherans, there were a few bishop in Finland who embraced Luther’s heresies, but refused to abandon succession. Their successors might be real bishops. Of course if they are ordaining women their, any hope of validity is lost.

The rerason Rome says Anglican Orders are invalid is that there was a break in succession. The Anglicans rejected, denied the doctrine of Apostolic Succession. Generations passed and they realized this was a mistake. So they rebuilt the succession going back to the first apostate Anglican bishops. Rome said that once succession is lost or denied it is lost forever.

Rome recognizes Orthodox Orders, because they are valid. Notice they do not try to claim women can be priests. Its not like the Vatican is trying to rain on parades, or insult Lutherans like the woman minister who was outraged by the fact that Rome questioned her supposed Orders.

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by Cathdefender
But only a Catholic priest can grant you absolution.

Correction: Only God can forgive sins.
That means God the father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
Also, Being God, He can choose to delegate that authority to others which he did. This is recorded multiple times:

First in Matthew 16

18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

And again in Matthew 18

15"If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. 17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

And even more clearly in John 20

21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 **“If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.” **

Therefore a Cathoic Priest duly ordained through apostolic succession can indeed provide absolution for sins with the words:
“I absolve you in the name ofthe Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Now go in Peace”

Peace
James

 

[Cathdefender]

Only Jesus Christ can!!

There simply is no need for the fictitous torture chambers of so called “purgatory.” “Purgatory” has nothing to do with cleansing us from sin:

Not just some sins! Not just “venial sins” not just “mortal sins;” but “ALL SIN.”

The priests does it in place for Jesus…and you are so misled about sin and absolution, it isn’t funny.

 

[Protestant101]

Correction: Only God can forgive sins.
That means God the father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Mat 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

Your Scripture twisting is unfortunate. None of the texts you provided have given ANYONE this same authority as Jesus, (or God). GOD says “I will not give my glory to another.” (Isa.42:8)

 

[Cathdefender]

Mat 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

Your Scripture twisting is unfortunate. None of the texts you provided have given ANYONE this same authority as Jesus, (or God). GOD says “I will not give my glory to another.” (Isa.42:8)

Quoting from the KJV?

 

[SD_Catholic]

Mat 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

Your Scripture twisting is unfortunate. None of the texts you provided have given ANYONE this same authority as Jesus, (or God). GOD says “I will not give my glory to another.” (Isa.42:8)

Huh???.. 23 “If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

Sorry we didn’t make this up… it’s actually in there.

SD

 

[Protestant101]

Huh???.. 23 “If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

Sorry we didn’t make this up… it’s actually in there.

SD

Nobody said you did make it up. But I also didn’t make up the verses I quoted so are you saying the Scriptures are contradicting themselves here? How do you then reconcile these two passages?

 

[Lampo]

Nobody said you did make it up. But I also didn’t make up the verses I quoted so are you saying the Scriptures are contradicting themselves here? How do you then reconcile these two passages?

Go to the pillar and bullwark of truth?

 

[SD_Catholic]

Nobody said you did make it up. But I also didn’t make up the verses I quoted so are you saying the Scriptures are contradicting themselves here? How do you then reconcile these two passages?

What are you talking about??? You said nobody else had the authority to forgive sins… so I pointed out the fact that Jesus gave authority to the Apostles to forgive sins:shrug:

How does that show me trying to make Scripture contradict itself? Where do the verses you showed say that nobody else was ever given the power to forgive sins? If you can’t accept what they say that’s not my problem… I only re-showed you the verse that proved others were also given the power to forgive sins.

SD

 

[JRKH]

Your Scripture twisting is unfortunate. None of the texts you provided have given ANYONE this same authority as Jesus, (or God). GOD says “I will not give my glory to another.” (Isa.42:8)

Originally Posted by Protestant101 in Response to Lampo
Nobody said you did make it up. But I also didn’t make up the verses I quoted so are you saying the Scriptures are contradicting themselves here? How do you then reconcile these two passages?

I will ask you to explain how This:

Mat 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

Which you posted, contradicts this:

21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. **23 “If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.” **

Jesus has the power to forgive sin, no one will contradict that.
He passed that authority to the Apostles, and through them to their successors as is his right and privilege as head of the Kingdom of God.

There is no twisting involved “It Is Written”.

As to Isa.42:8, just how does Jesus acting within his authority detract from the Glory of God?

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Go to the pillar and bullwark of truth?

And here in lies the rub.
Protestant101 is in the unfortunate postition of being unable to obey Jesus command to “Take it to the Church”. He must disobey Jesus because He cannot submit to The Church Christ Himself established.

Search your heart P101, and come home.

Peace
James

 

[Gamera]

Only Jesus Christ can!!

There simply is no need for the fictitous torture chambers of so called “purgatory.” “Purgatory” has nothing to do with cleansing us from sin:

Not just some sins! Not just “venial sins” not just “mortal sins;” but “ALL SIN.”

“Fictitious” is an interesting choice of words, coming from a poster who knowingly perpetuated the fictitious claim that I “denigrated Biblical authority.” You lack sufficient credibility to tell anyone what is or isn’t “fictitious.”

 

[JonNC]

You are conflicted. QUOTE]

Yes.

Your church ordains women, or attempts to. You disagree with your church. If Rome and you are right the Church has no power to ordain women. If Rome and you are right, you belong to a denomination that has invalid Orders, claiming women are validly ordained and can confect their Eucharist. Its not my Eucharist, or The Eucharist, because women can not be ordained or perform any of the sacamental functions reserved for the ordained priesthood.

I agree. Wouldn’t it make sense that these two demoninations, as first generation reformists, would also be more inclined to discuss and seek unity?

If all it should take to settle this inter-Lutheran dispute is reading the confessions, why is it that Lutheran ministers within their synod are driven “apoplectic” lately arguing over the topic or Orders, according to a minister who was involved?

My comment about reading the confessions had to do with private confession specifically. Your other comments about orders I understand.

Jon

[/QUOTE]

 

[grandfather]

Technically, it doesn’t. The LCMS does not ordain women. The ELCA does. But I also understand that the CC does not recognize our orders either.

My comment is that it does not matter what Luther wrote. The doctrine he concocted and unleashed says only scripture determines faith and practice. Sorry to seem brutal, but there is a contradiction that needs to be pointed out. Who cares what Luther said about anything? Show me the Bible. If he can dismiss the constant teaching of the Church using sola scriptura or his reading of scripture, then he also has no authority according to the same doctrine. He could not promote his doctrine on his own authority. No one would have taken him seriosly. He could not appeal to the fathers or the constant teaching of the Church, because his new ideas opposed it. So he appealed to his new interpretation of the Bible and created this horrible division we still suffer.

 

[Lilyflower]

Some Scriptures within the Protestant Bible can be cited as arguably supporting purgatory, such as Paul praying for the late Onesiphorus in 2 Tim 1:16.

I think 2 Macc 12:43-46, which plainly advocates prayer for the dead, makes the Catholic case stronger, but I wouldn’t say that it’s the only verse that supports the idea of purgatory.

Paul makes the position very clear in 1Cor 3:14-17 and 1 Cor 5:4-7 where he actually uses the word ‘purge’ which is the root of ‘Purga-tory!’

Blessings and peace

 

[Protestant101]

And here in lies the rub.
Protestant101 is in the unfortunate postition of being unable to obey Jesus command to “Take it to the Church”. He must disobey Jesus because He cannot submit to The Church Christ Himself established.

Search your heart P101, and come home.

Peace
James

When someone “takes it to the Church;” it is precisely the Bible that the Church uses as it’s “authority.” its not the other way around. "The “pillar and ground of truth” only means that Jesus has entrusted already established truth to the Church; it has nothing to do with the Church supposedly exercising some sort of “authority” over that which only God has authority.

 

[auss1e_guy]

Where do Proetestants find altar calls, invitation hymns, and revivals in the Bible?

Where do they find the formula “Accept Christ as your personal Savior”?

I’ve yet to see any of these therein, myself.

When you show me where these are in the Bible, then we’ll talk about purgatory. Fair enough?

That’s actually a good point. “Accepting Christ as your personal savior” doesn’t seem Biblical to me either. However, Jesus calls us to repentance.

I love Paul’s theology in Romans, where he writes

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 10:13 “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

I suppose it then begs the question, What does it mean to call upon the name of the Lord?