Protestant Questions About Purgatory

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This was so beautifully said, it made me almost cry…:crying:
One more thing about the expereince of these yuong women who are public penitents. When they tell their stories they are sure that the listeners will despise them. The reason they are doing it is to help others avoid the same pain, or to help raise money for the organization that helped them heal. They are absolutely stunned and bewildered that they encounter love, mercy, forgiveness and not a shred of judgement. The whole ecxperience is 100% positive, but they can’t understand why the response to their disclosure is people responding in love. The reason for this is that they believe that what they did makes them unlovable. They think they deserve to be despised. It is the same with all sinners. That is why we hide our dark secrets. We bury them deep within. Once they come out we are healed. Wounded souls like physical wounds need to be opened and cleaned out. The infectuous puss need to be removed. That is what confession does for the soul. Why do you think Luther said that confession is unnecessary?
 
The Holy Orthodox Church has always prayed for the dead. Not because they think there is some place or state of purification through fire or suffering, but because we rely on God’s great mercy. That is why we are called to ceaslessly pray:

“Lord Jesus Christ Son of God have mercy on me a sinner.”
I don’t get this… what’s your reason for praying for the dead? Why pray for someone who’s dead if you already believe they’re in heaven or hell?

SD
 
I don’t get this… what’s your reason for praying for the dead? Why pray for someone who’s dead if you already believe they’re in heaven or hell?
It is God’s business. Are they in heaven? Hell? It is a mystery to us. We pray that God will have mercy on them. That is all.
 
Why do you think Luther said that confession is unnecessary?
Grandfather,
Huh? Please document this.

Augsburg Confession:
Article XI: Of Confession.
1] Of Confession they teach that Private Absolution ought to be retained in the churches, although in confession 2] an enumeration of all sins is not necessary. For it is impossible according to the Psalm: Who can understand his errors? Ps. 19, 12.
Luther’s Small Catechism:
What is Confession?*
Confession embraces two parts: the one is, that we confess our sins; the other, that we receive absolution, or forgiveness, from the confessor, as from God Himself, and in no wise doubt, but firmly believe, that our sins are thereby forgiven before God in heaven.
What sins should we confess?
Before God we should plead guilty of all sins, even of those which we do not know, as we do in the Lord’s Prayer. But before the confessor we should confess those sins alone which we know and feel in our hearts.
Apology of the Augsburg Confession:
2] For we also retain confession, especially on account of the absolution, as being the word of God which, by divine authority, the power of the keys pronounces upon individuals. 3] Therefore it would be wicked to remove private absolution from the Church. 4] Neither do they understand what the remission of sins or the power of the keys is, if there are any who despise private absolution.
Jon
 
It is God’s business. Are they in heaven? Hell? It is a mystery to us. We pray that God will have mercy on them. That is all.
I’m still missing something… I would pray for God to have mercy on someone that has died also, but only because I believe my prayers will help that person in purgatory…

What I’m wondering is why would you pray for God to have mercy on them if … 1. they’re already in heaven and don’t need your prayers for mercy since there is no need for mercy of souls already in heaven… or 2. they’re in hell and your prayers can do nothing for them.

It’s probably that I’m just not on the same page with you, but I’m honestly having a hard time understanding your need for praying for the dead if you believe they’re already in heaven or hell. Do you believe that when someone dies they go straight to heaven or hell?

SD
 
:nope:

Purification through tears of repentance have nothing to do with the post schism innovation of purgatory.
Augustine

“There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for other dead who are remembered. It is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended” (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).

“But by the prayers of the holy Church, and by the salvific sacrifice, and by the alms which are given for their spirits, there is no doubt that the dead are aided, that the Lord might deal more mercifully with them than their sins would deserve. The whole Church observes this practice which was handed down by the Fathers: that it prays for those who have died in the communion of the Body and Blood of Christ, when they are commemorated in their own place in the sacrifice itself; and the sacrifice is offered also in memory of them, on their behalf. If, then, works of mercy are celebrated for the sake of those who are being remembered, who would hesitate to recommend them, on whose behalf prayers to God are not offered in vain? It is not at all to be doubted that such prayers are of profit to the dead; but for such of them as lived before their death in a way that makes it possible for these things to be useful to them after death” (ibid., 172:2).

“Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment” (The City of God 21:13 [A.D. 419]).

“That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire” (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity 18:69 [A.D. 421]).

“The time which interposes between the death of a man and the final resurrection holds souls in hidden retreats, accordingly as each is deserving of rest or of hardship, in view of what it merited when it was living in the flesh. Nor can it be denied that the souls of the dead find relief through the piety of their friends and relatives who are still alive, when the Sacrifice of the Mediator [Mass] is offered for them, or when alms are given in the Church. But these things are of profit to those who, when they were alive, merited that they might afterward be able to be helped by these things. There is a certain manner of living, neither so good that there is no need of these helps after death, nor yet so wicked that these helps are of no avail after death” (ibid., 29:109).
 
:nope:

Purification through tears of repentance have nothing to do with the post schism innovation of purgatory.
Gregory of Nyssa

“If a man distinguish in himself what is peculiarly human from that which is irrational, and if he be on the watch for a life of greater urbanity for himself, in this present life he will purify himself of any evil contracted, overcoming the irrational by reason. If he has inclined to the irrational pressure of the passions, using for the passions the cooperating hide of things irrational, he may afterward in a quite different manner be very much interested in what is better, when, after his departure out of the body, he gains knowledge of the difference between virtue and vice and finds that he is not able to partake of divinity until he has been purged of the filthy contagion in his soul by the purifying fire” (Sermon on the Dead [A.D. 382]).

John Chrysostom

“Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice [Job 1:5], why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them” (Homilies on First Corinthians 41:5 [A.D. 392]).

“Weep for those who die in their wealth and who with all their wealth prepared no consolation for their own souls, who had the power to wash away their sins and did not will to do it. Let us weep for them, let us assist them to the extent of our ability, let us think of some assistance for them, small as it may be, yet let us somehow assist them. But how, and in what way? By praying for them and by entreating others to pray for them, by constantly giving alms to the poor on their behalf. Not in vain was it decreed by the apostles that in the awesome mysteries remembrance should be made of the departed. They knew that here there was much gain for them, much benefit. When the entire people stands with hands uplifted, a priestly assembly, and that awesome sacrificial Victim is laid out, how, when we are calling upon God, should we not succeed in their defense? But this is done for those who have departed in the faith, while even the catechumens are not reckoned as worthy of this consolation, but are deprived of every means of assistance except one. And what is that? We may give alms to the poor on their behalf” (Homilies on Philippians 3:9–10 [A.D. 402]).
 
:nope:

Purification through tears of repentance have nothing to do with the post schism innovation of purgatory.
Tertullian

“We offer sacrifices for the dead on their birthday anniversaries [the date of death—birth into eternal life]” (The Crown 3:3 [A.D. 211]).

“A woman, after the death of her husband . . . prays for his soul and asks that he may, while waiting, find rest; and that he may share in the first resurrection. And each year, on the anniversary of his death, she offers the sacrifice” (Monogamy 10:1–2 [A.D. 216]).

Cyprian of Carthage

“The strength of the truly believing remains unshaken; and with those who fear and love God with their whole heart, their integrity continues steady and strong. For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace * is given. Yet virginity is not therefore deficient in the Church, nor does the glorious design of continence languish through the sins of others. The Church, crowned with so many virgins, flourishes; and chastity and modesty preserve the tenor of their glory. Nor is the vigor of continence broken down because repentance and pardon are facilitated to the adulterer. It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord” (Letters 51[55]:20 [A.D. 253]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

“Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition; next, we make mention also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and, to put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep, for we believe that it will be of very great benefit to the souls of those for whom the petition is carried up, while this holy and most solemn sacrifice is laid out” (Catechetical Lectures 23:5:9 [A.D. 350]).*
 
:nope:

Purification through tears of repentance have nothing to do with the post schism innovation of purgatory.
The Acts of Paul and Thecla

“And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again received her [Thecla]. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: ‘Mother, you shall have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the righteous’” (Acts of Paul and Thecla [A.D. 160]).

Abercius

“The citizen of a prominent city, I erected this while I lived, that I might have a resting place for my body. Abercius is my name, a disciple of the chaste Shepherd who feeds his sheep on the mountains and in the fields, who has great eyes surveying everywhere, who taught me the faithful writings of life. Standing by, I, Abercius, ordered this to be inscribed: Truly, I was in my seventy-second year. May everyone who is in accord with this and who understands it pray for Abercius” (Epitaph of Abercius [A.D. 190]).

The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity

“[T]hat very night, this was shown to me in a vision: I [Perpetua] saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid color, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age, who died miserably with disease. . . . For him I had made my prayer, and between him and me there was a large interval, so that neither of us could approach to the other . . . and * knew that my brother was in suffering. But I trusted that my prayer would bring help to his suffering; and I prayed for him every day until we passed over into the prison of the camp, for we were to fight in the camp-show. Then . . . I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me. Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me: I saw that the place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. . . . [And] he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment” (The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity 2:3–4 [A.D. 202]).*
 
Why do you think they are called cults? Sheesh!
The Oneness Pentacostal Church is a cult? News to me.

I think JWs would take offense to being called a cult as well.

So is your definition of cult, “A church that doesn’t agree with me”? If that’s the case, do you consider all non-Orthodox churches to be cults?
Something as serious as purgatory had better be very clear in Scripture and corroborated by the earliest Christians. I don’t see it.
Have you ever considered the fact that you might be wrong, or that you are deliberately (albeit, perhaps, unconsciously) blinding yourself to the Truth because it’d be too upsetting to your current worldview?

Moreover, unless you’re an infallible interpreter of Scripture, it is very possible that you ARE wrong.
LOL. That is creative interpretation. They are not talking about purgatory in these quotes. :nope:
According to YOU. Are you infallible when it comes to interpreting Scripture and/or the writings of the early Church fathers?
 
Grandfather,
Huh? Please document this.

Augsburg Confession:

Luther’s Small Catechism:

Apology of the Augsburg Confession:

Jon
This is great to learn. Lutherans and Catholics agree that confessing one’s sins is necessary, but it is news to me. It also seems to contradict the Lutheran doctrine sola fide.
 
This is great to learn. Lutherans and Catholics agree that confessing one’s sins is necessary, but it is news to me. It also seems to contradict the Lutheran doctrine sola fide.
Faith alone is about justification. There follows sanctification, growth in grace. But that’s for another thread.

Blessings,
Jon
 
Faith alone is about justification. There follows sanctification, growth in grace. But that’s for another thread.

Blessings,
Jon
So do you confess your sins? Do you do this with your minister, friend, wife?
 
According to YOU. Are you infallible when it comes to interpreting Scripture and/or the writings of the early Church fathers?
Mickey appears to be in the minority, since the Orthodox faith does allow for an intermediate state. They, like Eastern Catholics, refrain from defining things too precisely, and they’re probably wise to do so, but their prayers for the dead are indeed said to “assist” them and “bring them consolation”, pointing to a state in which it is possible to be helped and consoled. Even the 1672 Synod of Jerusalem says as much, and that’s post-schism.

They may not attach the name “purgatory” to it or even use the “fire” imagery, but even that is not mandatory on Latins. What is to be believed, and this is the ancient faith, is that there is a purification, or final theosis after death, and there the Orthodox faith is compatible with the Latin doctrine of purgatory.
 
Although the pope himself does pennance every week, what sins has Benedict committed that you know of? What sins have you committed in the last 24 hours?
Right - it is possible to be sinless for periods of time…

Like when you are sleeping…
 
:nope:

Purification through tears of repentance have nothing to do with the post schism innovation of purgatory.
It is an innovation NOT to accept Purgatory… Purgatory was accepted by the Jews before Christ came… (2 Maccabees 12:45)
 
The Holy Orthodox Church has always prayed for the dead. Not because they think there is some place or state of purification through fire or suffering, but because we rely on God’s great mercy. That is why we are called to ceaslessly pray:
QUOTE]

where is that in the Bible?
 
It is God’s business. Are they in heaven? Hell? It is a mystery to us. We pray that God will have mercy on them. That is all.
thats exact the point… We don’t know… You said earlier that a person doesn’t suffer (we don’t pray to relieve their suffering)…
 
I think JWs would take offense to being called a cult as well.
does their taking offense make it less a cult?
According to YOU. Are you infallible when it comes to interpreting Scripture and/or the writings of the early Church fathers?
the Church is infallible.
 
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