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Mickey
Guest
You do not know if someone has repented. You do not know who is saved. You do not read hearts.
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grandfather
Guest
Of course I don’t know. I meant everyone, me, you, the pope, all who have sinned.
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wanner47
Guest
If it is so clear, why do some Christian sects, who have access to the SAME VERSES, reject it? If it was so clear, wouldn’t EVERY sect that follows the Bible embrace it?
As for SS, if you do not subscribe to it, then why this insistence that every single doctrine must be explicitly spelled out in Scripture?
Not true. The early Church fathers wrote about Purgatory.
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RobHom
Guest
Precisely and well said, thank you!!
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Cathdefender
Guest
Although the pope himself does pennance every week, what sins has Benedict committed that you know of? What sins have you committed in the last 24 hours?
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RobHom
Guest
If you are referring to the “Trinity”…which is directed referred to here: *2 Matthew 28
19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.*
That makes it pretty clear and undeniable.
If you are referring to Purgatory, or even the Trinity…the principal reason that other sects do not embrace them is quite simple: They cannot embrace those tenets of faith…because to do so would bring them into direct agreement with the Catholic Church. That would effectively negate their very reason(s) for existence. Its that simple.
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Zooey
Guest
Most people. Poor ornery folk that we are, most of us will go to Purgatory, before we go to Heaven.
Some people go straight to Heaven. They are clearly better Christians than
I am. I know that.The notion that I might sail clear into Heaven without a stop along the way ??Truthfully, I don’t even like the:nope: sound of that…I want a chance to brush my teeth, take a bath, wash & comb my hair, and put on clean clothes before I stand before the King of kings & the Lord of lords.
There is something about being [in Luther’s words] a
"snow-covered dungheap"in Heaven that makes me want to, well, puke. I mean, my cat’s litter box is a couple of feet away right now, & she has it all buried, but…it’s still a cat’s box. When all is said & done, that is what going to Heaven without being cleansed sounds like to me…It sounds like, a litter box showing up, pretending to be OK, because, after all, cats bury their poop…So they do, but, IMHO, it’s not exactly a picture of how to enter the court of Heaven.But hey! :shrug:That’s just me…
(I will now scrape said box…this post having gotten a bit…[ahem, cough, cough]
literal).
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wanner47
Guest
I agree, wholeheartedly! My point, however, is that there are other Christian sects who reject the doctrine of the Trinity despite reading the same verses, so obviously the Trinity can’t be THAT explicit if there are other sects that deny it when reading the same Bible.
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grandfather
Guest
Well I really don’t know what sins he has committed. I do know that he goes to confession weekly. He must be confessing something other than good deeds. I don’t get to listen in though.
I forget the precise term, but in order to go to confession there has to be something like “sufficient matter”. In other words you can’t imagine things or just make stuff up, because you get a kick out of going to confession.
I also know that we are all sinful, other than Jesus and Mary, and we all are in need of mercy. Mercy is obtained by believing what God has revealed and repenting of our sins. He said He would forgive us if we repent. That includes all of us, no exceptions. If we insist we have no sin, we get no mercy. When popes die immediately prayers for mercy begin for their souls. Why do you suppose they do that?
As for your other question, I am unaware of committing any sins in the last 24 hours, but last week was a big mess. I lost my temper with a person who means well, but is very difficult to deal with and I swore up a storm. I am very embarrassed that I made a total *** of myself. So that is another sin. I am embarrassed, because I am full of pride. That is what confession does for us. It destroys pride.
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Cathdefender
Guest
Yes, I know what you mean. I know God expects us to make mistakes, after all, he is the only perfect being there is. God knows in this year of 2008 it is very difficult for daily living and very hard to be sinless. I have to believe this.
What I hate is when I am CONSCIOUS of sin. Sometimes I wonder if the person who isn’t conscious of his sin would get to heaven before me. Being conscious of sin could be a gift though.
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Mickey
Guest
Why do you think they are called cults? Sheesh!
Something as serious as purgatory had better be very clear in Scripture and corroborated by the earliest Christians. I don’t see it.
LOL. That is creative interpretation. They are not talking about purgatory in these quotes. :nope:
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Mickey
Guest
Wrong. Trinity is clear–purgatory is not. Purgatory was an invented doctrine by the post schism RCC. It was never known by the early Church.
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Cathdefender
Guest
Wrong. Purgatory is SO CLEARLY STATED in Maccabees it isn’t funny. Protestants don’t have the books of Maccabees or even other books as we do. Did that ever occur to you if you are not reading it, it must not be there?
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Mickey
Guest
LOL!
I am an Orthodox Christian. Prayers for the dead do not imply purgatory–never did and never will.
And we have one more book of Maccabees than you do!
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grandfather
Guest
Cathdefender,
This might be helpful, but is off topic. I have found to be true in my personal experience. For those who are here to discuss purgatory only, pass on this post.
Being conscious of your sins is a gift. If this awareness is a gift then the guilt that results is good. Guilt is a good thing, because it makes us uncomfortable and squirm and will lead us to repentance as long as we do not deny the guilt and try to justify ourselves. We have to admit we have done evil.
Jesus knew our nature and that we would continue to offend him and declared what His own divine response to this would be when He told Peter how many times Peter should forgive. He did not tell Peter we get 1400 chances. The 70 times 7 meant an infinite number of chances to fall and rise and repent.
After we fall we are disappointed in ourselves, ashamed, guilty, and can hate ourselves for betraying God. God responds by saying I forgive you, but the forgiveness needs to be known by us for it to help us. We have to know we are forgiven. The Church knows this also, which is why when you go to confession the priest never says that you have run out of chances. It is always go in peace. God forgives you. Keep trying, etc.
Although guilt is a good thing, God does not want us burdened by guilt. He wants us to know He forgives us whenever we betray Him and ask for forgiveness. As the Jews were commanded to not carry physical burdens on the sabbath, we are commanded to spiritually unburden ourselves before we approach the altar to receive Him. We do not take one bath in a lifetime to be clean.
The reason confession works and is necessary is that it is difficult if not impossible to believe sometimes that we are forgiven, no matter how hard we try to tell ourselves after the hundredth time of some sin. We need to get things off our chest. We can do this in prayer, but we need to hear ourselves openly confess and declare with our mouths that we are guilty and hear the words of another person tell us God loves us. If someone has not done this they can not know what it is like to do it. So the Church arranges this revealing of dark secrets to be as unthreatening as possible.
Sacramental confession really works, but I have seen the phenomena work in other settings. My wife and I support a crisis pregnancy center for 25 years. She is a founder of it. Every year they have a funderaiser dinner. Young women will stand up with their babies and say thanks all full of tears. Also some women who come for post abortion counselling and healing will stand up and say they had abortions and were plagued by guilt and shame and found healing. They sit and wait to be called up to the mike and are terrified. They are going to stand in front of 300 people they think are good Christians and when these good people learn that this woman has murdered her baby they will despise her. The girl’s counselor is there assuring her it will be ok. At the last minute they want to run away, but somehow they get up and do it. It all comes out in great heaving sobs in front of the whole crowd. Her deepest darkest secret of guilt and shame pours out.
She is stunned to look out and see dozens of faces full of tears and when it is over an outpouring of love, not condemnation. Not a single person is angry with her, or condemns her. It is like Jesus with the adulterous woman. No one throws a stone.
This is healing. Finally she is free. The poisonous guilt and shame buried deep in her soul she could never escape are all gone. This freedom can not be experienced without confession. It is impossible. Those who think they can know forgiveness without confession are in denial. They do not know it. Those who do muster the courage to confess not only know with certainty they are forgiven, but are also given grace and freedom to get victory over the sin. It works, not always the first time, but eventually it works.
How do I know this is true? I am an expert on sin. I confess it with Paul, who calls himself the worst of all.
There are two baptisms. One is in water and the other is in tears.
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Mickey
Guest
Only the tears of repentance are able to cleanse the soul. REF:St. Anthimos of Chios +1960
Greater than baptism itself is the fountain of tears after baptism, even though it is somewhat audacious to say so. For baptism is the washing away of evils that were in us before, but sins committed after baptism are washed away by tears. As baptism is received in infancy, we have all defiled it, but we cleanse it anew with tears. And if God in His love for mankind had not given us tears, those being saved would be few indeed and hard to find. **St. John Climacus, “The Ladder of Divine Ascent,” **
In the beginning there are a great many battles and a good deal of suffering for those who are advancing towards God and afterwards, ineffable joy. It is like those who wish to light a fire; at first they are choked by the smoke and cry, and by this means obtain what they seek – as it is said, ‘Our God is a consuming fire’ – so we also must kindle the divine fire in ourselves through tears and hard work. Amma Syncletica
Thus should we weep for the forgiveness of our sins. The words of the bearer of the purple should convince us of this: ‘Going they went and wept, casting their seed; but coming they shall come with joyfulness, carrying their sheaves (Ps. 125:6);’ as well as the words of St. Isaac the Syrian: ‘Moisten your cheeks with the tears of your eyes, that the Holy Spirit may abide in you, and cleanse the filth of your malice. Move your lord with your tears, that He may help you’ (homily 68). St. Seraphim of Sarov
God is visiting you when tears come during prayer. Elder Amphilochios Makris
What rain is for seeds tears are for those who are afflicted. REF:Saint John Chrysostom****
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grandfather
Guest
On second thought this does have to do with Purgatory. Jesus commands us to be be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect (holy). If we are told to do this it must be possible. If Jesus commands something of us that is impossible then He is unjust. If it is possible to achieve this holiness then at least some few souls did it, by grace. I am not one of them. At the time of death what happens to the vast majority of imperfect souls beloved by God. Nothing imperfect can come into God’s presence. Are they purified and enter heaven, or are they lost?
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Cathdefender
Guest
This was so beautifully said, it made me almost cry…:crying:
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Mickey
Guest
:nope:
Purification through tears of repentance have nothing to do with the post schism innovation of purgatory.
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Mickey
Guest
The Holy Orthodox Church has always prayed for the dead. Not because they think there is some place or state of purification through fire or suffering, but because we rely on God’s great mercy. That is why we are called to ceaslessly pray:
“Lord Jesus Christ Son of God have mercy on me a sinner.”
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