Protestant Questions About Purgatory

[SORROWS]

Thank you. Yes, I know. He must love me, to give me the honor of being insulted for His sake.

:hug3:

 

[RobHom]

Well, it would seem that, well…the age old argument has once again risen…you know…the one about the incomplete Bible. There is no argument. It is a fact that Luther took books out of the Bible, without having any particular “authority” to do so…other than that which he took upon himself. Other non-Catholic Bibles at one time did contain the Apocrypha…but later “someone” took those books out. I wonder who granted them the “authority” to do that.

Oh well… back to the main point: Purgatory.

Its not just in the Apocrypha… read these passages with your eyes open:

1 Corinthians 3:13-15
2 Corinthians 5:10
Psalm 66:10-12
Isiah 4:4
Micah 7:9
Malachi 3:2-3

Further: “The foundation of the medieval doctrine is found in St. Augustine, who holds that the fate of the individual soul is decided immediately after death, and teaches the absolute certainty of purifying pains in the next life”. That comes from the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church.

No… I do not believe that the Bible is the end all to be all. God did not stop inspiring man, and never will. To say that God’s inspiring of man ceased, is to limit God, something which no man may or can do.

 

[ralphinal]

It is hard to see how much someone “loves the Bible” when all they can do is do characterize opponents, or those who disagree with their thinking as “hateful;” however, if that’s the way you insist on, you are most welcome to it.

I see a lot of things that both Protestants and Catholics do to denigrate the Bible’s authority, so I guess in your next post, you’d better be sure to include accusations of being a “Protestant Hater.” :knight2:

For those who would like more serious study on this subject; I am interested to hear your opinions on Purgatory:

1) Is this doctrine based solely on the need for “cleansing,” as I think I have heard some say here?

Basically, yes. Almost all humans have some attachment to some sin. In other words, there is some temptation that they hold on to even if they never commit the sin.

2) Does everyone have to go to “purgatory” when they die?

Nope. Some will go to heaven with no stop. It amounts to if they have nothing between thema nd their love for God.
Naturally, everyone bound for hell go directly there.

3) Are people in fact “dead” when they go to Purgatory?

No one is dead if they are baptised into Christ (St Paul). God is the God of the Living not the Dead (Jesus). They may no longer inhabit the earth, but according to the Bible, they are alive in Christ.

 

[Protestant101]

You don’t get to insult someone’s love for Christ and then just brush them aside when they protest. Be an adult and take responsibility for your words.

I never said people who disagree with me are ‘hateful.’ I said YOUR insults directed at me were “hateful,” (“hateful” means “full of hate,” not ''deserving of being hated") because you knowingly falsely attributed to me a disrespect for God’s precious word. Your words were hateful, Protestant101. Not your religion. Not your theology. Your words.

Have the courage to be held accountable for what you say. Go back and read the posts in question. I stated that just as the church doesn’t save, neither does the Bible save, because it is Jesus who saves. I never ‘denigrated Biblical authority.’ You are bearing false witness against your neighbor.

I didn’t accuse anyone of “disrespect;” and you are the one who needs to read the posts more carefully.

Here is what I said, in summary of what I see as denigration/lessening of Biblical authority:

I see a lot of things that both Protestants and Catholics do to denigrate the Bible’s authority, so I guess in your next post, you’d better be sure to include accusations of being a “Protestant Hater.” :knight2:

My opinions as stated are not hateful; and I refuse to accept that from you in this matter. I have collectively addressed BOTH Protestants and Catholics in saying what I said about lessening the authority of the Bible, and making the Bible subservient to other materials or sources. There simply is nothing directed at you personally, only at a very common idea, that I find objection to, and that I see as denigrating God’s intended authority for His Holy Word. Catholics, like Protestants, very often do not give God’s intended place to Biblical authority. That’s not “hateful” on my part, it’s a fact of life, beyond my control.

It is also very common for those who cannot defend their position from the Bible to start attacking the person’s character and motives. The more you choose to do this to me or other Protestants, the less we will believe you or anything you say.

I have asked 3 questions above about “purgatory.” I wonder if anyone will answer them with references?

 

[RobHom]

I have asked 3 questions above about “purgatory.” I wonder if anyone will answer them with references?

Asked and answered… did you bother to read the responses?

As to lessening the validity of the Bible…That is not a Catholic trait, as the Church is based on Scripture, and that is an undeniable fact. However, that being said, we as a Church do not declare the Bible to be the end all to be all. Even the Bible supports that fact. The only persons who try to say the Bible is all there is are those who embrace Sola-scriptura…which is a “man-made-tradition” and which is not scripturally sound, nor is it scripturally supported.

Now, since you brought up the “lessening of Bible authority”… well, I’ll answer that for you… That happened right about 1534 when Luther took it upon himself to translate the Bible into German and left the Apocrypha out of “his version”. If it is anyone who has “lessened the authority of the Bible”…it is “non-Catholics” who have done so. Its simply undeniable historical fact…sorry, but thats just how it is.

 

[allhers]

Protestant101 go back and read post #82 that you posted.

 

[Protestant101]

Asked and answered… did you bother to read the responses?

OK; now I see the post, but it wasn’t there when I made my last one. We must have posted at the same time or something.

But, now I am really confused. It seems as though the answer to number two question I posted says some people go right to heaven, some go right to hell, when they die. Who then, goes to so called “purgatory,” and why? Where does the Bible support your answers?

 

[allhers]

While you’re at it, go back and read all the posts and links, your questions were already answered. Have a good night.

 

[RobHom]

OK; now I see the post, but it wasn’t there when I made my last one. We must have posted at the same time or something.

No problem!

But, now I am really confused. It seems as though the answer to number two question I posted says some people go right to heaven, some go right to hell, when they die. Who then, goes to so called “purgatory,” and why? Where does the Bible support your answers?

There are those who merit entry into heaven upon their departure from this life, others merit no more than eternal damnation, while others…who’s sins are not great enough to merit eternal damnation…go to purgatory.

The Bible supports this through the verses I listed in the previous post. And to further explain:

1. Who are punished in purgatory?

Those are punished for a time in purgatory who die in the state of grace but are guilty of venial sin, or have not fully satisfied for the temporal punishment due to their sins.

The fire will assay the quality of everyone’s work; if his work abides which he has built thereon, he will receive reward; if his work burns he will lose his reward, but himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (I Corinthians 3:13-15)

1. Who are punished in hell?

Those are punished in hell who die in mortal sin; they are deprived of the vision of God and suffer dreadful torments, especially that of fire, for all eternity.

The he will say to those on his left hand, “Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.” (Matthew 25:41)

1. Who are rewarded in heaven?

Those are rewarded in heaven who have died in the state of grace and have been purified in purgatory, if necessary, from all venial sin and all debt of temporal punishment; they see God face to face and share forever in His glory and happiness.

Then the king will say to those on his right hand, “Come, blessed of my Father, take possession of the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” (Matthew 25:34)

The above was taken from this link: catholicity.com/baltimore-catechism/lesson14.html

I hope that answers your questions.

 

[Techno2000]

OK; now I see the post, but it wasn’t there when I made my last one. We must have posted at the same time or something.

But, now I am really confused. It seems as though the answer to number two question I posted says some people go right to heaven, some go right to hell, when they die. Who then, goes to so called “purgatory,” and why? Where does the Bible support your answers?

mtep.com/stgertrude.htm

 

[Gamera]

Protestant101, this is what you said about my post.
"Protestant101:

Gamera:

SIA:

Christ is your savior bottom line. No church or saint or icon can do that for you.

Right. Catholics agree. Also, no Bible can save you – you left that part out.

This is a perfect example of how Catholics are taught to denigrate Biblical authority and inspiration.

If it is actually God’s own Holy Word, and yet it has no power at all, then why would we need it? …To deny or minimize the authority of the Bible in the believer’s life, is to deny Jesus.

Now here is your account of what happened.

I didn’t accuse anyone of “disrespect;” and you are the one who needs to read the posts more carefully.

Here is what I said, in summary of what I see as denigration/lessening of Biblical authority:

My opinions as stated are not hateful; and I refuse to accept that from you in this matter. I have collectively addressed BOTH Protestants and Catholics in saying what I said about lessening the authority of the Bible, and making the Bible subservient to other materials or sources. There simply is nothing directed at you personally, only at a very common idea, that I find objection to, and that I see as denigrating God’s intended authority for His Holy Word. Catholics, like Protestants, very often do not give God’s intended place to Biblical authority. That’s not “hateful” on my part, it’s a fact of life, beyond my control.

It is also very common for those who cannot defend their position from the Bible to start attacking the person’s character and motives. The more you choose to do this to me or other Protestants, the less we will believe you or anything you say.

Your remark was directed at me, not at some generic “other” Catholics or Protestants. You said “this” – MY post, not somebody else’s — my post was a “perfect example of how Catholics are taught to denigrate Biblical authority and inspiration.” Do you now admit that you were wrong? ALL I said was that it isn’t the Bible that saves, just like it isn’t the church that saves – it is Jesus who saves. Why is it soooooo hard for you to admit that you mischaracterized my post? What is sooooo hard about admitting that I didn’t denigrate the Bible one iota?

Assuming you base your life on the Bible like I do, you doubtless are familiar with Matthew 5:23-24, where Jesus requires us to make a good faith effort to reconcile. This is not a doctrinal dispute. This is about whether I personally “denigrated” the Bible by which I live my life. Whatever other people you may have had in mind when you wrote post 82, nothing I said could be taken as “denigrating Biblical authority.” Agreed?

 

[Protestant101]

I hope that answers your questions.

Yes, this is the kind of info I was originally looking for, thankyou.

I think the text in 1 Cor.3 would be a good first text to explore a bit, insofar as Catholics say it relates to purgatory:

1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

I have included a few other surrounding verses to include more of the context; but when I make my next post, I will be interested to compare and contrast our respective understandings on this text, and if/how they “prove” purgatory. I think I see what Catholics are trying to say re the need for being “cleansed,” so it should be a good study between us to work on. I will look forward to any and all replies on this text in 1 Cor.3. :bible1:

 

[Gamera]

Yes, this is the kind of info I was originally looking for, thankyou.

I think the text in 1 Cor.3 would be a good first text to explore a bit, insofar as Catholics say it relates to purgatory:

I have included a few other surrounding verses to include more of the context; but when I make my next post, I will be interested to compare and contrast our respective understandings on this text, and if/how they “prove” purgatory. I think I see what Catholics are trying to say re the need for being “cleansed,” so it should be a good study between us to work on. I will look forward to any and all replies on this text in 1 Cor.3. :bible1:

Wow, so you have absolutely no intention of accepting responsibility for making a false statement about me. Now you’ve shown your true colors.

I don’t know what kind of Bible study you intend to pursue with your stated bias that “Catholics are taught to denigrate Biblical authority.” But I do know that your credibility here is zero.

 

[Mickey]

If the argument for the Trinity in Scripture is so clear, why do some Christian sects (e.g., the JWs, the Oneness Pentacostals) reject it?

Again, it is very clear. Would you like the verses?

In addition, the argument for sola scriptura in Scripture is EXTREMELY weak, yet most Protestants (and yourself, if I’m not mistaken) subscribe to it.

Wrong again. I do not “subsrcibe to it”. But again, this is not a thread on SS.

The doctrine of Purgatory is implicity referenced in Scripture;

Not really.

however, it was the job of the Church to expound upon it at the proper time.

The undivided Church never knew such a strange doctrine.

 

[Mickey]

how is trinity “spelled out”?? the word trinity is not in the Bible

So what?

the concept of Purgatory, a place of being purged of the effects of sin - IS in the Bible (1 Cor, st. Matthew, Rev, etc…)

Sorry. I do not see the concept in these verses.

 

[Mickey]

For my part, I showed it in Scripture

It is a reach. Do you have any corroboration–such as maybe a consensus of early Church Fathers–who agree with your interpretation?

 

[Mickey]

It didn’t become doctrine until the 5th century.

I believe it was the 13th century.

 

[grandfather]

Asked and answered… did you bother to read the responses?

As to lessening the validity of the Bible…That is not a Catholic trait, as the Church is based on Scripture, and that is an undeniable fact. However, that being said, we as a Church do not declare the Bible to be the end all to be all. Even the Bible supports that fact. The only persons who try to say the Bible is all there is are those who embrace Sola-scriptura…which is a “man-made-tradition” and which is not scripturally sound, nor is it scripturally supported.

Now, since you brought up the “lessening of Bible authority”… well, I’ll answer that for you… That happened right about 1534 when Luther took it upon himself to translate the Bible into German and left the Apocrypha out of “his version”. If it is anyone who has “lessened the authority of the Bible”…it is “non-Catholics” who have done so. Its simply undeniable historical fact…sorry, but thats just how it is.

Luther decided on his own authority to come up with a new canon of scripture. This is not theology. It is history. Protestants today who have departed from Luther’s theology defend his canon. Additionally, Luther argued vehemently to remove the book of James, for obvious reasons. The book contradicts his sola fide heresy. His cohorts threatened to leave him if he insisted on striking James. He also “added” to scripture when he translated it into German. He added the word allein/alone after the word faith, for obvious reasons.

 

[distracted]

those who disagree with their thinking as “hateful;”

I agree… I’ve found that a lot of Catholics in my life are “hateful”… Just being honest… But you know, Jesus said there would be few who make it… who choose that narrow pathway… going to Church doesn’t make you a Christian any more than going into a garage makes you a car…

I see a lot of things that both Protestants and Catholics do to denigrate the Bible’s authority

Catholics acknowledge its authority (we read many scripture passages every day @ Mass…) but all authority does not come strictly and only from the Bible… (though no legitimate authority will contradict the Bible iether)…

For those who would like more serious study on this subject; I am interested to hear your opinions on Purgatory:

1) Is this doctrine based solely on the need for “cleansing,” as I think I have heard some say here?

Pretty much… A Christian who is not done “working out [his] salvation with fear and trmebling” is given a chance to do so in purgatory, then, once he is cleansed, he moves on to Heaven…

2) Does everyone have to go to “purgatory” when they die?

from my information, most people do. The only ones who don’t are those who die immediately after baptism (no time to commit sin)… and those who have given themselves to Jesus 100%… and done everything He required of them (somewht different depending on person, yet same in some ways for all of us: basically one has to live the Word of God… not just believe, etc…).

3) Are people in fact “dead” when they go to Purgatory?

i am not sure i understand this one…
People should dotheir Purgatory here on Earth… that is God’s will… to live the Word here… where it can do some good… If we neglect some part of it… we will be shown mercy (allowed into Purgatory) as long as our over-all “bent” was to do God’s will… doing Purgatory here means praying a lot, helping others, offering up our sufferings in union with those of Christ… sacrificing what is not pleasing to God… things like that… (accepting our crosses)…

 

[grandfather]

OK; now I see the post, but it wasn’t there when I made my last one. We must have posted at the same time or something.

But, now I am really confused. It seems as though the answer to number two question I posted says some people go right to heaven, some go right to hell, when they die. Who then, goes to so called “purgatory,” and why? Where does the Bible support your answers?

To undersstand this you have to (temporarily) agree with other Catholic dogma and reject Calvin’s once saved always saved heresy. It would also be good to look at your own soul. Use your conscience and examine yourself.

Nothing imperfect is in the presence of God. Nothing imperfect can be in His presence. No sin in in His presence. It is annihilated by His glory as it comes near. Just think about that for a moment. You don’t need any scriptural references although you can find them. You know this is true. If sin and its consequences were in God’s presence heaven would not be heaven. The stain of sin on your soul needs to be removed.

You can tell me that it is removed by Jesus blood and I agree, but what does your conscience tell you about this? Are you attached to sin today? Are there imperfections that remain even though you are a man of faith and believe Jesus is the Son of God who came and died for sinners? Jesus says if we lust for a woman we are guilty of the sin as if we had physically committed the act. The same is true of all sins, not just this particular one. So inside the cup, are you clean or does something still remain that needs addressing?

Scripture tells us that there is some sin that is to death and some that is not, giving us the idea of mortal and venial sins. Some sin is so evil that it destroys the relationship of the soul with God. In the early Church those sins are murder, adultery, apostacy and sins against the Holy Spirit (six of them).

Assuming none of this evil lurks in your heart, are you ready for heaven? Are you perfect? Jesus commands us to be perfect (holy) even as our Heavenly Father is holy. Are you?

The souls in heaven are perfect, free of all blemish, perfected in all virtue and cleansed of all vice. Are you that? If you are not, the only hope for you, if you were to die right now is the perfection takes place between the time you die and your entry into heaven.

Some souls are perfectly holy at the time of death. Some are lost, not because they have done something so evil that they are damned forever, but they have done great evil and are impenitent, and reject mercy. They do not want mercy. They cling to evil.

None of us knows what we will do tomorrow. You could turn from God and destroy your soul. You have that power. So Catholics pray for a holy death for themselves and for the likes of you. We hope for heaven for all. Protestants who are living in serious sin and believe they are saved, because they said some prayer years ago are in grave danger. They think they have it made. This is the sin of presumption. It is a sin against the theological virtue of hope, as is despair. We will all stand before God in jjudgement. He will judege us and you do not know your judgement until you see Him face to face and hear His words, come to me or depart from me. What a terrible thing it is to tell people they are saved, when they are not. You have to repent to be saved and not simply believe you are saved while you remain in sin.