Protestant Questions About Purgatory

[wanner47]

Your question is far too broad. I cannot speak for all Protestants. I am Anglican and our doctrines and practices are purposefully held in accordance with the early church’s.

Really?

So you’re saying that the early church approved of the ordination of women, the ordination of practicing homosexuals, and the use of contraception (to name a few)? Can you point me to any documents that would substantiate your claims?

I don’t seem to recall that the early Church condoned divorcing one’s wife so one could marry another in an attempt to beget a male heir, but that situation was the impetus for the very founding of the Anglican Church.

I think a case can be made for all churches changing over the decades including Catholicism.

In matters of discipline, yes. Doctrine, no. Our *understanding *of doctrines may mature over time, but the doctrines themselves do not change.

And speaking of Truth, God is all truth and his Word (The Holy Scriptures) contain that truth. Those don’t change. I’m sure you knew that as a Lutheran. As far as everything else, it’s been skewed and tarnished by man. Christ is your savior bottom line. No church or saint or icon can do that for you.

The Catholic Church doesn’t teach that buildings or saints or icons can act as saviors, so I’m not sure why you mention that. And as Gamera mentioned, the Bible can’t save you either, despite claims to the contrary by other Protestants on this thread.

 

[Protestant101]

Right. Catholics agree. Also, no Bible can save you – you left that part out.

This is a perfect example of how Catholics are taught to denigrate Biblical authority and inspiration.

If it is actually God’s own Holy Word, and yet it has no power at all, then why would we need it?

Psa 68:11 (68:12) The Lord shall give the word to them that preach good tidings with great power.
Ecc 8:4 And his word is full of power: neither can any man say to him: Why dost thou so?
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory and the figure of his substance and upholding all things by the word of his power, making purgation of sins, sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high:

To deny or minimize the authority of the Bible in the believer’s life, is to deny Jesus.

 

[SIA]

This is a perfect example of how Catholics are taught to denigrate Biblical authority and inspiration.

If it is actually God’s own Holy Word, and yet it has no power at all, then why would we need it?

To deny or minimize the authority of the Bible in the believer’s life, is to deny Jesus.

Amen to that!

 

[Cathdefender]

This is a perfect example of how Catholics are taught to denigrate Biblical authority and inspiration.

If it is actually God’s own Holy Word, and yet it has no power at all, then why would we need it?

To deny or minimize the authority of the Bible in the believer’s life, is to deny Jesus.

To deny the church that Christ founded, is to deny Jesus.

 

[JRKH]

This is a perfect example of how Catholics are taught to denigrate Biblical authority and inspiration.

If it is actually God’s own Holy Word, and yet it has no power at all, then why would we need it?

To deny or minimize the authority of the Bible in the believer’s life, is to deny Jesus.

Hmmmmm -
According to the beliefs of many Protestants, aren’t we saved by faith alone?
Is that Faith in the Bible?
Faith in Jesus Christ?

Does the power of God’s word reside between the covers of a book?
Or does the Power of God’s word reside in the Heart?

You say that by denying the authority of the bible one is denying Jesus, yet you deny entire books of the Bible and find that perfectly acceptable.
You cannot have it both ways.

Peace
James

 

[distracted]

She thought she might be asleep and dreaming, but knew that was not the case. She was sitting awake and listening to voices calling out for help. She got a bit scared and pulled the blankets over her head and tried to go back to sleep.

this reminds me of the book by Maria Simma, who always gets visits from the souls in Purgatory… She says that they often do interesting things to get our attention so we will pray & offer Masses for them… VERY interesting book… and M. Simma is very orthodox Catholic… (trustworthy).

Paul … When he gets to the end he writes something very strange. He writes, that in God’s plan they would not be made perfect without us.

Where is this in the Bible??

 

[distracted]

I think a case can be made for all churches changing over the decades including Catholicism.

the doctrines/dogmas have NOT changed…

And speaking of Truth, God is all truth and his Word (The Holy Scriptures) contain that truth.

Yet all of God cannot be contained in a small book…

Those don’t change.

Right and if they they don’t change, people should not change the interpretation thereof either…

As far as everything else, it’s been skewed and tarnished by man.

Jesus promised that the very gates of hell would not prevail against His Church… so even though most things in this world are “tarnished by man”, including things in the Catholic Church, the Church itself can be trusted… the Church’s teachings come from God… albeit through fallible man…

Doesn’t it stand to logic that this would be so??

Would God give us a Church we could not wholly trust??

No, that is not His nature… He knew we would often be confused and doubt… and have questions galore…

I believe that is the main reason He gave us the Blessed Sacrament, ***the Real Presence of Christ ***in the Church 24/7… He promised to be with us ALWAYS… to the end of the age… (St. Matthew 28:20)

Frankly, if i didn’t have the Real Presence, i would NOT be a Christian…
Ok… not entirely accurate… I would not be a strong devout, out-spoken… Christian…

 

[distracted]

Christ is your savior bottom line. No church or saint or icon can do that for you.

Even Christ can’t save you if you don’t want to be saved… Technically, only YOU can save yourself (through Christ).

 

[Gamera]

This is a perfect example of how Catholics are taught to denigrate Biblical authority and inspiration.

If it is actually God’s own Holy Word, and yet it has no power at all, then why would we need it?

To deny or minimize the authority of the Bible in the believer’s life, is to deny Jesus.

I love every precious word of the Bible. I read the Bible every day. 365 days per year. My wife and I read one chapter together each night. Scripture is the sword of truth! Scripture is food for my soul. Scripture is the power of the living God speaking His sweet word for the salvation of sinners. Your claim that I have “denigrated” the Bible is absurd.

The prior poster said that no church or saint can save us, only Jesus can. In turn I pointed out that in Bible cannot save us either, only Jesus can. My point was that saying “the church doesn’t save you, Jesus does,” makes exactly as much sense as saying, “the Bible doesn’t save you, Jesus does.”

Your assertion that I “denigrate Biblical authority” is just hateful.
Go back and read the posts again. Perhaps then you will see how offensive your remark is.

 

[Gamera]

Amen to that!

Thanks for your knee-jerk ratification of bigoted hate speech. Try reading through the thread. I never "denigrated " the Bible. I love the Bible with all my soul.

 

[Cathdefender]

Thanks for your knee-jerk ratification of bigoted hate speech. Try reading through the thread. I never "denigrated " the Bible. I love the Bible with all my soul.

Gamera, do not worry…God loves you.

 

[Gamera]

Hmmmmm -
According to the beliefs of many Protestants, aren’t we saved by faith alone?
Is that Faith in the Bible?
Faith in Jesus Christ?

Does the power of God’s word reside between the covers of a book?
Or does the Power of God’s word reside in the Heart?

You say that by denying the authority of the bible one is denying Jesus, yet you deny entire books of the Bible and find that perfectly acceptable.
You cannot have it both ways.

Peace
James

Thank you. At least somebody understood my post. Saying “a church can’t save you” is exactly the same as saying “a Bible can’t save you.” It is Jesus Who saves us. Jesus USES things, such as the Bible, the Church, the sacraments, and so forth, but it is Jesus Who is the source of our salvation. THAT is the point I was making. Apparently some non-catholics are so brainwashed in anti-Catholic jingoism that they assume we Catholics don’t love our Bibles as much as they do, and will pounce on any opportunity to claim that Catholics somehow “denigrate Biblcial authority.”

 

[grandfather]

Where is this in the Bible??

Hebrews 11 : Paul begins the chapter by defining faith as the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. He then recounts the works of faith of the Old Testament figures from Abel forward.

He ends the chapter by writing:

"And all these, though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

In the next chapter he opens with the statement that we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses and says Jesus is the “author and perfecter of our faith.” RSV

Nothing imperfect can enter heaven, paradise, the eternal kingdom of God. Paul says that without us (those who lived centuries after the Old Testament figures who lived by faith) they would not be made perfect. What is it then that we do that makes those who came before us perfect? Our eternal destinies are linked somehow based on Paul’s statement.

Luther said those who are alive could do nothing for those who lived and died. From the beginning the Church always prayed for her beloved dead. This is part of the historical record. It is not theology. It is on the tombs in the catacombs, written in stone. Did the Church of all ages believe and practice something false until Luther came to enlighten us about the error of our ways?

 

[Protestant101]

I love every precious word of the Bible.

Your assertion that I “denigrate Biblical authority” is just hateful.

It is hard to see how much someone “loves the Bible” when all they can do is do characterize opponents, or those who disagree with their thinking as “hateful;” however, if that’s the way you insist on, you are most welcome to it.

I see a lot of things that both Protestants and Catholics do to denigrate the Bible’s authority, so I guess in your next post, you’d better be sure to include accusations of being a “Protestant Hater.” :knight2:

For those who would like more serious study on this subject; I am interested to hear your opinions on Purgatory:

1) Is this doctrine based solely on the need for “cleansing,” as I think I have heard some say here?

2) Does everyone have to go to “purgatory” when they die?

3) Are people in fact “dead” when they go to Purgatory?

 

[Gamera]

It is hard to see how much someone “loves the Bible” when all they can do is do characterize opponents, or those who disagree with their thinking as “hateful;” however, if that’s the way you insist on, you are most welcome to it.

I see a lot of things that both Protestants and Catholics do to denigrate the Bible’s authority, so I guess in your next post, you’d better be sure to include accusations of being a “Protestant Hater.” :knight2:

For those who would like more serious study on this subject; I am interested to hear your opinions on Purgatory:

1) Is this doctrine based solely on the need for “cleansing,” as I think I have heard some say here?

2) Does everyone have to go to “purgatory” when they die?

3) Are people in fact “dead” when they go to Purgatory?

You don’t get to insult someone’s love for Christ and then just brush them aside when they protest. Be an adult and take responsibility for your words.

I never said people who disagree with me are ‘hateful.’ I said YOUR insults directed at me were “hateful,” (“hateful” means “full of hate,” not ''deserving of being hated") because you knowingly falsely attributed to me a disrespect for God’s precious word. Your words were hateful, Protestant101. Not your religion. Not your theology. Your words.

Have the courage to be held accountable for what you say. Go back and read the posts in question. I stated that just as the church doesn’t save, neither does the Bible save, because it is Jesus who saves. I never ‘denigrated Biblical authority.’ You are bearing false witness against your neighbor.

 

[Gamera]

Gamera:

by SIA:

Christ is your savior bottom line. No church or saint or icon can do that for you.

Right. Catholics agree. Also, no Bible can save you – you left that part out.

---

This is a perfect example of how Catholics are taught to denigrate Biblical authority and inspiration.

If it is actually God’s own Holy Word, and yet it has no power at all, then why would we need it?

Protestant101, read it again. Do you understand now? You have completely twisted my words. I never “denigrated Biblical authority.” I never denied the power of the Bible. My point was that, just like “No church can save you” and “no saint can save you,” also “no Bible can save you.” Because it is JESUS who saves us!!! Understand now? How could you POSSIBLY jump from there to your outrageous statement that I somehow “denigrate” the Bible?

I cannot believe this is happening. I never thought I would experience the horror of someone telling me I didn’t love the Bible. This is like somebody telling a career Marine that he doesn’t love his country.

 

[Protestant101]

You don’t get to insult someone’s love for Christ and then just brush them aside when they protest. Be an adult and take responsibility for your words.

I never said people who disagree with me are ‘hateful.’ I said YOUR insults directed at me were “hateful,” (“hateful” means “full of hate,” not ''deserving of being hated") because you knowingly falsely attributed to me a disrespect for God’s precious word. Your words were hateful, Protestant101. Not your religion. Not your theology. Your words.

Have the courage to be held accountable for what you say. Go back and read the posts in question. I stated that just as the church doesn’t save, neither does the Bible save, because it is Jesus who saves. I never ‘denigrated Biblical authority.’ You are bearing false witness against your neighbor.

I am sorry Sir; but I cannot accept your accusations of “hatred” or “hateful” just because I have the opinion that your doctrinal understanding denigrates the authority of the Bible. Which it certainly does. If you insist on taking that as a personal accusation, then I have no desire to fight with you about it. I am here to compare and to contrast our respective beliefs, according to forum guidelines.

I believe that a person denigrates Biblical authority whenever they say “the Bible and something else” to defend a given doctrine.

Perhaps you would care to try disproving that notion, instead of resorting to the arful victim complex syndrome so prevalent in errant theology of both Protestant and Catholics today, and in some of your posts.

 

[Gamera]

I am sorry Sir; but I cannot accept your accusations of “hatred” or “hateful” just because I have the opinion that your doctrinal understanding denigrates the authority of the Bible. Which it certainly does. If you insist on taking that as a personal accusation, then I have no desire to fight with you about it. I am here to compare and to contrast our respective beliefs, according to forum guidelines.

Apparently you are here to insult people, in violation of forum guidelines.

I believe that a person denigrates Biblical authority whenever they say “the Bible and something else” to defend a given doctrine.

I didn’t do that, either. I said that the Bible doesn’t save, Jesus saves. I never referred to “the Bible and something else to defend a given doctrine.” I pointed out that Jesus saves (not a Bible and not a church) and you have eviscerated me for it. You applied horrible statements to me — claiming that I didn’t think the Bible was inspired, that I didn’t think the Bible had power — all because I pointed out that only Jesus saves.

Perhaps you would care to try disproving that notion, instead of resorting to the arful victim complex syndrome so prevalent in errant theology of both Protestant and Catholics today, and in some of your posts.

Blame the victim, good, that’s the only part of classic hate speech that you’ve been missing so far. It isn’t my fault that you can’t bother to carefully read a post before posting an attack against someone’s character. Admit it – nothing in my post “denigrated Biblical authority.” All I said was that the Bible doesn’t save, Jesus saves. You agree with that, right? So where did I say anything wrong, let alone anything denigrating Holy Scripture?

You can deny all you want, but you know and I know that all I said was “the church doesn’t save, Jesus saves” is no different from saying “the Bible doesn’t save, Jesus saves.” Your prejudice caused you to read into my words something “denigrating” the Bible, which is absurd, and now you’re too proud to admit your error.

I love the Bible.

I read daily from the Bible.

I have read the entire Bible.

I cherish the Bible.

For you to insist otherwise and then refuse to apologize, just to preserve your own ego, shows that perhaps you are the one who needs to start reading it.

 

[Gamera]

Gamera, do not worry…God loves you.

Thank you. Yes, I know. He must love me, to give me the honor of being insulted for His sake.

 

[allhers]

Thank you. Yes, I know. He must love me, to give me the honor of being insulted for His sake.

I just got here and started reading the first page and then these last pages and I see your point exactly Gamera, Protestant101 does need to say they are sorry for attacking what you didn’t say!!
It’s perfectly obvious to the casual observer, you are wrong Protestant101, admit it and then things can move on. You came here looking for answers and many people have given you very thought provoking honest answers. If you are here to argue and attack, that will not be tolerated by any of us.
It’s unkind, mean, bears false witness and sinful.