Protestant Questions About Purgatory

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Mickey said:
That is not purgatory. But if it makes you feel betterā€“go with it. šŸ˜ƒ
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Yes, it is Mickster.

Iā€™m not sure why the EO bretheren donā€™t openly support the existence of Purgatory, after all, they do pray for the dead. Why do you pray for the dead if they are in Hell or are in Heaven? It doesnā€™t make sesne if Purgatory does not exist.
 
Chaldean_Rite said:
Yes, it is Mickster.

Iā€™m not sure why the EO bretheren donā€™t openly support the existence of Purgatory, after all, they do pray for the dead. Why do you pray for the dead if they are in Hell or are in Heaven? It doesnā€™t make sesne if Purgatory does not exist.
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Oh brother. Round and round we go. :whacky:
 
Christ is Risen!
Indeed He is Risen!

Good people. Tomorrow is the Holy Orthodox feast of the Ascension of Our Lord. Pentecost is just around the corner. It is time for me to retreat into prayer. I am posting this to all the threads on which I have been actively participating. I have enjoyed our discussions. And so I will be leaving for an indefinite period of time.

I know, I know----some of you will be extremely upset that Iā€™m gone. šŸ˜ƒ

I will pray for everyone.

Peace and blessings,
Mickey
 
grandfather said:
So do you confess your sins? Do you do this with your minister, friend, wife?
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I confess my sins to my pastor who, as a called and ordained servant of Christ, grants absolution by Christā€™s authority. I ask forgiveness from others when I have wronged them.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
I confess my sins to my pastor who, as a called and ordained servant of Christ, grants absolution by Christā€™s authority. I ask forgiveness from others when I have wronged them.

Jon
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But only a Catholic priest can grant you absolution.
 
Cathdefender said:
But only a Catholic priest can grant you absolution.
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Hi Cathdefender,

I know that is the Catholic Churchā€™s view, based on her position that our orders are invalid. I respectfully disagree. On the other hand, I do believe that a Catholic priest can grant absolution.

That said, I was simply responding to Grandfatherā€™s question, as he admitted he was unaware of Lutheran confessional practice, and I asumed he was just curious.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Hi Cathdefender,

I know that is the Catholic Churchā€™s view, based on her position that our orders are invalid. I respectfully disagree. On the other hand, I do believe that a Catholic priest can grant absolution.

That said, I was simply responding to Grandfatherā€™s question, as he admitted he was unaware of Lutheran confessional practice, and I asumed he was just curious.

Jon
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No, it is Christā€™s Word. **ā€œWhat sins you forgive are forgiven them, what sins you retain are retainedā€.**And since there were only Catholics back then, it is quite obvious whom He is referring to.
 
Cathdefender said:
No, it is Christā€™s Word. **ā€œWhat sins you forgive are forgiven them, what sins you retain are retainedā€.**And since there were only Catholics back then, it is quite obvious whom He is referring to.
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A disagreement which you and I cannot convince each other on. Perhaps our leaders, through ecumenical discussion led by the Holy Spirit, can reconcile these differences.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
I confess my sins to my pastor who, as a called and ordained servant of Christ, grants absolution by Christā€™s authority. I ask forgiveness from others when I have wronged them.

Jon
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No kidding? I am amazed. Every Lutheran I have ever met has all but mocked the practice of confession and insisted it was Catholic nonsense. What next?

Who ordained him servant of God?
 
grandfather said:
No kidding? I am amazed. Every Lutheran I have ever met has all but mocked the practice of confession and insisted it was Catholic nonsense. What next?

Who ordained him servant of God?
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I guess we Lutherans have a similar catechetical deficiency as some Catholics here complain about in your church. Tell them to read the confessions, for goodness sake!

I suspect the ordination process in the LCMS is not too terribly dissimilar to the Catholic Church, but I honestly donā€™t know much about your orders.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
I guess we Lutherans have a similar catechetical deficiency as some Catholics here complain about in your church. Tell them to read the confessions, for goodness sake!

I suspect the ordination process in the LCMS is not too terribly dissimilar to the Catholic Church, but I honestly donā€™t know much about your orders.

Jon
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Do your Lutheran ā€˜ordainedā€™ priests lie prostate in front of the Blessed Sacrament for long periods of time as the Catholic priests do when they are ordained? This is one sight that brings tears to my eyes. It is so holy.
 
JonNC said:
Hi Cathdefender,

I know that is the Catholic Churchā€™s view, based on her position that our orders are invalid. I respectfully disagree. On the other hand, I do believe that a Catholic priest can grant absolution.

That said, I was simply responding to Grandfatherā€™s question, as he admitted he was unaware of Lutheran confessional practice, and I asumed he was just curious.

Jon
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I met a Lutheran minister not too long ago who told me that within his synod there were heated arguments over Orders that were driving people ā€œapoplecticā€ . He was from the eastern U.S. The conversation started out with him telling me that Lutherans went to Pope JPII soon after he was made pope and asked for intercommunion. I said it was a matter of Orders. He responded by telling me about the above inter-Lutheran dispute over the necessity and existence of sacramental Holy Orders. I did not say anything at the time, because the time and place was not right for such a discussion. But I thought, for goodness sake, Lutheranā€™s canā€™t agree among themselves about this, what Orders are or if they exist at all, and they expect Rome to automatically recognize the validity of their orders. Good grief!

He went on to tell me that he was very disappointed that the pope settled the Catholic argument (related to valid Orders) of ordaining women, because this would block forever the possiblility of reunion with the different Lutheran denominations. I long for unity also, but he was right. The Catholic Church will never recognize priestesses. It is impossible to ordain a woman to Holy Orders. This is defined, of the faith, although it is dying hard among the liberals as we see the invalid ordinations of women who excommunicate themselves.

Without Orders it is impossible to confect the Eucharist. Lutherans are not sure about Orders. Some say they have them. Others insist they are nonsense. Which is it? Who decides? Can I ordain myself? Can a Martin Luther ordain a priest? A priest can not ordain a priest. Does the recognition of the necessity of sacramental Orders create valid Orders?
 
grandfather said:
I met a Lutheran minister not too long ago who told me that within his synod there were heated arguments over Orders that were driving people ā€œapoplecticā€ . He was from the eastern U.S. The conversation started out with him telling me that Lutherans went to Pope JPII soon after he was made pope and asked for intercommunion. I said it was a matter of Orders. He responded by telling me about the above inter-Lutheran dispute over the necessity and existence of sacramental Holy Orders. I did not say anything at the time, because the time and place was not right for such a discussion. But I thought, for goodness sake, Lutheranā€™s canā€™t agree among themselves about this, what Orders are or if they exist at all, and they expect Rome to automatically recognize the validity of their orders. Good grief!

He went on to tell me that he was very disappointed that the pope settled the Catholic argument (related to valid Orders) of ordaining women, because this would block forever the possiblility of reunion with the different Lutheran denominations. I long for unity also, but he was right. The Catholic Church will never recognize priestesses. It is impossible to ordain a woman to Holy Orders. This is defined, of the faith, although it is dying hard among the liberals as we see the invalid ordinations of women who excommunicate themselves.

Without Orders it is impossible to confect the Eucharist. Lutherans are not sure about Orders. Some say they have them. Others insist they are nonsense. Which is it? Who decides? Can I ordain myself? Can a Martin Luther ordain a priest? A priest can not ordain a priest. Does the recognition of the necessity of sacramental Orders create valid Orders?
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The issue of apostolic succession is a significant debate amongst Lutherans. I come down on the side of it is certainly important, because I believe that if we (Lutherans) are truly reformationists, and not merely protestants, then one of our most important continuing missions must be unity.

It is an area of personal reflection for me, and intricate in the personal debate of where I am and where I need to be. And while neither you, Grandfather, nor cathdefender will ultimately convince me (that will come from prayer and the HS), I am listening to your points of view.

That does not detract from my certainty that Christ works through our clergy in the sacraments, confession and absolution, etc.

Finally, I agree with Rome on ordination of women. I find it ironic that, on the one hand those who favor women priests complain that the Catholic Church is sexist, while on the other hand your church is criticized by some for placing to much emphasis on the BVM.

Jon
 
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