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wanner47
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That’s what I’d like to know. Care to answer his question, Protestant101? How did the Church use the Bible as its authority in the year 107 AD?
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Protestant101
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Thanks for reminding me to get back on track.
It is a major fallacy of the papal doctrine of Purgatory, that salvation is obtained by punishments and penances, and that people must skim through the outer edges of hell (cleansing torture and punishments) to hopefully, or possibly, reach Heaven.
Luther and many Christians after him learned from the precious Bible that he or she who is not cleansed from sin by Christ’s atoning blood, can never be cleansed by the fires of hell; that the doctrine of purgatory is but a cunning device of the father of lies, and that the present life is the only period for probation granted to mankind in which to prepare for eternity.
Therefore, in considering the first text from scripturecatholic.com “proving” purgatory, we have a dilemna. This unofficial Catholic site is twisting the scriptures to fit a Roman Catholic dogma, and saying that we need to go through hell to get to heaven. That IF the blood of Jesus isn’t good enough to cleanse us from “all” sin, just go for a quick hip-hop to purgatory, get the extra “cleansing” that the blood of Jesus cannot handle, and you are freed, in the wanton torture chamber of punishments and misery fitfully called “Purgatory” by Catholic theologians.
In the scripturecatholic.com article, a section called “II. Purification After Death By Fire” the following text is quoted as "proving purgatory:
Now notice that this text is followed by the web author’s personal interpretation, leaving no room for people to see a definitive case for the need for “cleansing” by anything else other than the blood of Christ.
I would like to get back on topic by asking people about this text. How does Heb.12:29 “prove” the need for “cleansing” AFTER DEATH? hOW DOES IT PROVE THE NEED FOR A LITTLE EXTRA, ON TOP OF “the blood of Jesus Christ, cleanseth us from ALL sin…”
How can we top this cleansing by His blood, with a little extra torture in the ever-elusive grandiosity of purgatory’s “heated” punishments? Can anyone describe in detail the methods of torture used in purgatory to “cleanse” people??!! Can it possibly be that Christians are teaching that “If we want to get to heaven; we need to first raise a little hell?”
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grandfather
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Thanks for reminding me to get back on track.
What does Jesus say to His disciples when they ask Him about the eternal fate of His betrayer?
There are visionaries or mystics who have seen heaven, hell and purgatory. These are not quoted to you by posters, because you would not accept a non-Biblical source. Be mindful that all of Luther’s writings, Calvin’s, Zwingli’s, Billy Graham’s, Moody, Swaggart, yours and mine are non-Biblical and therefore have no authority. Nevertheless, if you have any interest in a mystic’s report, read Saint Catherine of Genoa.
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Protestant101
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Just as I thought - you have no choice but to admit that you have to use non-Biblical sources to “defend” purgatory. The doctrine of purgatory makes the claim of being able to get “cleansed” in direct defiance of Scripture which says only the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from sin. An event, or an environment, such as so called “purgatory” can never match the blood of Jesus!! God will give His glory to NO OTHER!! !:tsktsk:
po18guy
Well-known member
This is funny
!
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grandfather
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There have been numerous posts referring to scripture to demonstrate that holy souls are perfected after death.
You asked “Can anyone describe in detail the methods of torture used in purgatory to “cleanse” people?”
Saint Catherine lived many centuries after the Bible was written. It would have been impossible for her revelations to be contained in the Bible.
I believe God gives revelations to non-Catholics. They are not recorded in the Bible. Here is a story of one I believe occured. My daughter is a labor and delivery nurse in a Catholic hopsital. She meets before her shift with other Christian nurses of different denominations to pray together. One of these, a Protestant woman was driving into work and had a vision. It was so powerful she had to pull her car to the side of the road and park. She saw the delivery room and a woman giving birth whose baby was in great danger. There were four angels above the bed as the doctors and nurses worked hard to save the baby in the delivery process. There were demons shooting arrows or rays of some sort trying to kill the baby. The angels held a shield that blocked them. She went to work and the vision she saw on the way to work happened exactly as she saw it. As she did her job she prayed for protection of the mother and baby and saw the spirits in the room. The baby lived.
One day my heart stopped. I came to the very edge of death. I could feel my soul leaving. This was eleven years ago. A Protestant employee of mine was on his way home from work and was inspired to pray for me, knowing nothing about my trouble. He also had to pull his car over to the side of the road, bacause he was inexplicably overwhelmed and unable to drive. A daughter of another Protestant employee was in South America at the time on a mission. She knew nothing about what was going on, but called her parents and said she did not know why, but was inspired to pray for me and got everyone in the church there to pray for me. She wanted her parents to tell me this.
These are small examples of spiritual phenomena. They are not in the Bible. There are probably millions of such happenings and miracles. They are real. Does the fact that they are not in the Bible, but are used as examples to provie the existance of the Communion of Saints disprove their reality.
Your response is irrational as are a number of them. Continuing a dialogue with you is senseless. God bless you on your journey.
po18guy
Well-known member
AMEN!
He is grasping his KJV like a life preserver! You see, if he has to go outside his censored bible for his faith, that means his church has no foundation and he would have to join the “whore of babylon” :bigyikes:He has apparently accepted the founding and history of the SDA with complete blindness. I have the advantage of both looking into it and questioning it.
He will not say where the SDA concepts of “soul sleep”, “soul annihilation” or “temporary hell” come from. In this regard, he is much like the two other well-known adventist religions, and you know which ones they are. They come to your door.
Christ’s peace.
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Protestant101
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LOL, you, po18guy, and a few others must all belong to the same anti-Protestant Club. Call those dirty Protestants “irrational” and dismiss them as “not worth bothering with.” Right, OK. Now that we understand each other. :banghead:
po18guy
Well-known member
101, I pray for you. Your church is in error, that’s all. You cannot see either before or beyond the bible, even though Christ mentioned no such thing as a “bible”. “Bible only” forces your faith into a box and locks you there.
Where does scripture say that it ALONE is to be used and NOTHING ELSE? Christ never said any such thing, so why do you believe it? Luther? Better to follow Christ.
We go in circles with you because you will not try to learn or understand. We can instantly know your theology, because it is tissue paper thin.
Your frustration comes from constantly tripping and falling in the darkness of sola scriptura.
po18guy
Well-known member
Why has the bible lead all other Christian denominations and sects to different conclusions than these? Who is right and who is wrong? You cannot say and neither can any other person whose church has no authority.
The problem isn’t Protestants, it’s Protestantism.
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Protestant101
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I feel sorry for you & others here who constantly bring to question my motive or character. I might sit down one day and make a list of all the things said; perhaps it will be the beginnings of a great new booklet: APOLOGETICS 101.
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JRKH
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Cathdefender
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Still waiting Protestant 101 on how did they use the bible in the year 107? Can you answer the question or not :coffeeread: :juggle:
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Protestant101
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You are funny Joe! I do not fear “being pinned down,” but the fact that you took that comment this seriously, shows me that you are willing to continue with “the rambling nature of this post” for eons to come.
And that is something I am personally glad about! I do not feel I need to agree with someone to learn from them. But, you did state that “all we can do is to present these Truths” and I am left thinking that if we stop there, then all this “debate” or “discussion” we have done is for nothing.
For eg., when I was in nursing; (I am a male) I would be “presented” if you will, with a patient. Now; in the “head To Toe Assessment;” a nurse gets to know a lot about the patient, or so it seems; but when the Doctor comes along with the scalpel, and the Lab Techs with all their tests, then, and only then, does the nurse get to know some things about the patient, which would never show up otherwise. Even a skinny dude like me could have loads of plaque in the arteries, for one eg.!!
And so it is with the Word, with the Truth. Or with Jesus. We may showcase a doctrine about any of these to others; but it is not until a closer, internal examination is done, that we can really “know” the Truth which sets us free.
I once had an experience with a Catholic Sister (Nun) at a place where I was nursing. We both had a special burden for several very unfortunate patients; and one day I approached her in her office and said; “would you mind if I asked you to pray with me for …?” “I know it’s not really a part of the course you are supposed to teach us, but I think it would be a very good thing to do.” There were tears of joy and gratitude as we fellowshipped with Jesus together; because we were on that beleagured hospital floor as “one” not in doctrine; but in purpose. We both saw an old truth in a new depth, much deeper than ever before; and that is that God works in everyone!! Doesn’t matter how “opposite” you are!! You need to examine this truth a lot closer Joe; stop looking at me as “the enemy” or as “anti-Catholic!” I might not like some of your beliefs; but I certainly don’t look at you as an enemy. That Sister was making the “sign of the cross” and all kinds of “Catholic things” during the prayer; but it was impossible for me to deny that Christ was there; in a very real, a very strong way, with both of us.
My questions/challenges about “Purgatory” here are intended as that “internal examination” of God’s Word in this doctrine. As we all know, or should know, His Word has such depth that we will never be able to go as deep; but there’s nothing to stop us from trying, is there?
po18guy
Well-known member
We question only your beliefs. And. we wait for answers to several sola scriptura questions. You may find it uncomfortable, as it requires a serious examination of the philosophy which underlies your beliefs.
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wanner47
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You’ve skipped over this question more than once, Protestant101, so I’m quoting it again just in case you’ve missed it the first few times.
I was a Lutheran for 22 years so I can see where you are coming from, but the fact that you are unable to answer such simple questions has to be ringing some serious alarm bells for you. I know it’s hard once the teachings of the Church start making sense – it was scary for me too! But believe me, it’s worth it once you take the plunge and swim the Tiber.
Hi Grandfather,
Since we’ve drifted off the thread’s topic, a couple of thoughts.
Your comments are not brutal, but mind compared to some of the other posts by Catholics and n-c’s alike on this thread.
I care about what Luther said! I’m a cradle Lutheran. My baptism and faith in Christ came in the Lutheran Church. To the extent that I am evaluating where I am now, I would not be here had it not been for the Lutheran Church. In fact, being Lutheran, and reading Luther more critically lately has lead me here. I may swim the Tiber someday, and if I do, I must give some credit to Luther for my early “swimming” lessons.
Blessings,
Jon
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grandfather
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Jon,
There is a common theme I find in most if not all Ex-Catholics, and the opposite in most if not all ex-Protestants.
When I say who cares about what Luther said, what I mean is not to attack the man, but his doctrine. He claimed all authority is in the Bible. That not only means the Church has none, which is absurd and nonscriptural, but it also means he has none, I have none and you and the pope have none. So who cares what Luther says, or anyone says. No one has authority to teach in God’s name. There can be no ordained offices to teach or preach with authority. It is me and my Bible alone, me alone with my Bible alone. But the Bible shows us Peter teaching with authority, Paul an apostle authoritatively teaching and writing to local churches and giving orders with authority. Two of the four gospels are written by non-apostles, disciples of apostles, with authority that was given them by apostles. History holds for us some of what the next generation of men ordained by apostles taught. We have their writings and words, Ignatius, Polycarp, Justin, Cletus, etc. They had positions of authority. To deny their teachings is heresy. They were the guardians of the deposit of faith.
Back to the common theme. I have met a number of ex-Protestants. All of the ones I met, other than ex-Mormons, are extremely grateful for their Protestant upbrinnging and experience. They always praise their parents for raising them to seek and love God and for teaching them to pray and taking them to church and so on. Leaving their local churches was a difficult and painful experience, because of the love they found there and friendships. Often they try for awhile to remain with a foot in both boats, but I have never seen that work. They go from something they saw as good to something they found to be better, fuller or richer.
Ex-Catholics are the opposite. They are bitter and revile everything Catholic. They reject Mary and despise her prayers. They fume and fulminate about how horrible their Catholic experience was.
How is it that those coming in the door love the same thing those leaving hate? Often ex-Catholics have had a bad experience, were hurt by someone, betrayed, scandalized or otherwise wounded.
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