Protestant Questions About Purgatory

[JRKH]

You are funny Joe! I do not fear “being pinned down,” but the fact that you took that comment this seriously, shows me that you are willing to continue with “the rambling nature of this post” for eons to come.

And that is something I am personally glad about! I do not feel I need to agree with someone to learn from them. But, you did state that “all we can do is to present these Truths” and I am left thinking that if we stop there, then all this “debate” or “discussion” we have done is for nothing.

For eg., when I was in nursing; (I am a male) I would be “presented” if you will, with a patient. Now; in the “head To Toe Assessment;” a nurse gets to know a lot about the patient, or so it seems; but when the Doctor comes along with the scalpel, and the Lab Techs with all their tests, then, and only then, does the nurse get to know some things about the patient, which would never show up otherwise. Even a skinny dude like me could have loads of plaque in the arteries, for one eg.!!

And so it is with the Word, with the Truth. Or with Jesus. We may showcase a doctrine about any of these to others; but it is not until a closer, internal examination is done, that we can really “know” the Truth which sets us free.

I once had an experience with a Catholic Sister (Nun) at a place where I was nursing. We both had a special burden for several very unfortunate patients; and one day I approached her in her office and said; “would you mind if I asked you to pray with me for …?” “I know it’s not really a part of the course you are supposed to teach us, but I think it would be a very good thing to do.” There were tears of joy and gratitude as we fellowshipped with Jesus together; because we were on that beleagured hospital floor as “one” not in doctrine; but in purpose. We both saw an old truth in a new depth, much deeper than ever before; and that is that God works in everyone!! Doesn’t matter how “opposite” you are!! You need to examine this truth a lot closer Joe; stop looking at me as “the enemy” or as “anti-Catholic!” I might not like some of your beliefs; but I certainly don’t look at you as an enemy. That Sister was making the “sign of the cross” and all kinds of “Catholic things” during the prayer; but it was impossible for me to deny that Christ was there; in a very real, a very strong way, with both of us.

My questions/challenges about “Purgatory” here are intended as that “internal examination” of God’s Word in this doctrine. As we all know, or should know, His Word has such depth that we will never be able to go as deep; but there’s nothing to stop us from trying, is there?

The name’s James not Joe.

Thank you for sharing your testimony about the hospital. It is very moving.

Yes I continue, because I find you an interesting person. In spite of your incessant need to evade certain questions, I believe you to be sincere. Also, I don’t believe I have ever given the impression that I thought you were anti-catholic. If I did, I apologize. Mea Culpa.

As relating the issue of purgatory, I have not participated much on this because, frankly, I am not well versed on the subject. I realize that it was my post in the other thread that prompted you to start this one, but my point there (in the other thread) did not relate to purgatory per se, but rather the validity of the Deutero’s.

As to digging and examination, that is all fine and good, but it should be done in the correct context and framework. To discard the validity 2000 years of Catholic teaching and understanding of scripture simply because it doesn’t make sense to you is not the correct way to go about it.
Maybe the problem isn’t that the Bible is So Deep, but rather that it is so deep for someone who is unable to, “Take it to the Church” and listen to her.

Peace
James

 

[JonNC]

Jon,
There is a common theme I find in most if not all Ex-Catholics, and the opposite in most if not all ex-Protestants.

When I say who cares about what Luther said, what I mean is not to attack the man, but his doctrine. He claimed all authority is in the Bible. That not only means the Church has none, which is absurd and nonscriptural, but it also means he has none, I have none and you and the pope have none. So who cares what Luther says, or anyone says. No one has authority to teach in God’s name. There can be no ordained offices to teach or preach with authority. It is me and my Bible alone, me alone with my Bible alone. But the Bible shows us Peter teaching with authority, Paul an apostle authoritatively teaching and writing to local churches and giving orders with authority. Two of the four gospels are written by non-apostles, disciples of apostles, with authority that was given them by apostles. History holds for us some of what the next generation of men ordained by apostles taught. We have their writings and words, Ignatius, Polycarp, Justin, Cletus, etc. They had positions of authority. To deny their teachings is heresy. They were the guardians of the deposit of faith.

Back to the common theme. I have met a number of ex-Protestants. All of the ones I met, other than ex-Mormons, are extremely grateful for their Protestant upbrinnging and experience. They always praise their parents for raising them to seek and love God and for teaching them to pray and taking them to church and so on. Leaving their local churches was a difficult and painful experience, because of the love they found there and friendships. Often they try for awhile to remain with a foot in both boats, but I have never seen that work. They go from something they saw as good to something they found to be better, fuller or richer.

Ex-Catholics are the opposite. They are bitter and revile everything Catholic. They reject Mary and despise her prayers. They fume and fulminate about how horrible their Catholic experience was.

How is it that those coming in the door love the same thing those leaving hate? Often ex-Catholics have had a bad experience, were hurt by someone, betrayed, scandalized or otherwise wounded.

I think It goes to what some have said in this forum:
Those leaving your church may be wanting out of the structure, seeking less structure (more personal “freedom”) offered in SS protestantism.
Those n-C’s like me who are considering the CC, may be looking for the structure.
That’s a really broad brush, but what do you think?
Once again, hope no one else here minds our mildly off-topic exchange.
Jon

 

[wanner47]

I think It goes to what some have said in this forum:
Those leaving your church may be wanting out of the structure, seeking less structure (more personal “freedom”) offered in SS protestantism.
Those n-C’s like me who are considering the CC, may be looking for the structure.
That’s a really broad brush, but what do you think?
Once again, hope no one else here minds our mildly off-topic exchange.
Jon

As to my experience, I wasn’t looking for more structure – I was looking for the Truth.

I’m reminded of a C.S. Lewis quote:

“Above all you must be asking which door is the true one; not which pleases you best by its paint and panelling. In plain language, the question should never be: ‘Do I like that kind of service?’ but ‘Are these doctrines true: Is holiness here? Does my conscience move me towards this? Is my reluctance to knock at this door due to my pride, or my mere taste, or my personal dislike of this particular doorkeeper?’” – Mere Christianity

 

[Cathdefender]

Why can’t Protestant answer the question? Simple answer,…
BECAUSE HE CAN’T! Defend your faith Protestant 101 and answer the question…we are all waiting.:coffeeread:

 

[JonNC]

As to my experience, I wasn’t looking for more structure – I was looking for the Truth.

I’m reminded of a C.S. Lewis quote:

“Above all you must be asking which door is the true one; not which pleases you best by its paint and panelling. In plain language, the question should never be: ‘Do I like that kind of service?’ but ‘Are these doctrines true: Is holiness here? Does my conscience move me towards this? Is my reluctance to knock at this door due to my pride, or my mere taste, or my personal dislike of this particular doorkeeper?’” – Mere Christianity

As I said, it was a very broad brush. I very much understand what you are saying. And I think there are ex-catholics that looked at it the same way you do. Why, then, do they, as Grandfather noted, seem to have such hostility toward things Catholic, while ex-protestants seem to hold fondness toward their former protestant church? Once again, broad brush.

Jon

 

[JRKH]

As I said, it was a very broad brush. I very much understand what you are saying. And I think there are ex-catholics that looked at it the same way you do. Why, then, do they, as Grandfather noted, seem to have such hostility toward things Catholic, while ex-protestants seem to hold fondness toward their former protestant church? Once again, broad brush.

Jon

I shall crack the mold a bit here. I left the Church for more than 30 years but never once thought of it as evil, or my experiences bitter. As said earlier about protestants coming into the faith, I was greatful for my education in Parochial School, my devout parents and family and for that structure that taught me to Love Jesus.
Not everyone who leaves does so for hate. Sometimes it is just laziness.

I left because of the discipline, pure and simple. I left because of laziness. I sought my own way. I didn’t join another church because none “got it right”, yet I didn’t think the Catholic Church got it right either. I dug and prodded and read the Gospels until I got it broken down to the basics of basics. Then as I built my faith back up, I found I missed the “discipline”, the sacraments, the Eucharist. So I came home. It took some prayerful times and work, but it is indeed worth it.

Peace
James

 

[distracted]

I find it ironic that, on the one hand those who favor women priests complain that the Catholic Church is sexist, while on the other hand your church is criticized by some for placing to much emphasis on the BVM.

Jon

The Catholic Church, in this world, can’t win…

yet it already has… with some people… and in Heaven, where it is important…

I am glad you are open-minded about the Church… (refreshing after all i have been through :whacky: ).

 

[distracted]

A. It’s just a parable.
B. The rich man was in hell.

Just a parable?? Jesus didn’t “just tell parables” for no reason…

I do not believe the rich man was in Hell… I am not sure the Church takes a definite stand on that scripture passage… but i have heard @ least one Catholic priest say it refers to Purgatory… I have heard people’s (protestnat & Cathoic) visions of Hell… and this passage DOES NOT describe what they describe…

one website that has a few accounts of Hell that i find very questionable is wwwSpiritLessons.com …

but a better source (for me) as to what Hell is like is from the Diary of St. Faustina…

She, unlike those @ SpiritLessons.com… is a confirmed saint… and consideirng how long it takes the Church to declare someone an actual saint… that is saying a lot…

 

[JonNC]

I shall crack the mold a bit here. I left the Church for more than 30 years but never once thought of it as evil, or my experiences bitter. As said earlier about protestants coming into the faith, I was greatful for my education in Parochial School, my devout parents and family and for that structure that taught me to Love Jesus.
Not everyone who leaves does so for hate. Sometimes it is just laziness.

I left because of the discipline, pure and simple. I left because of laziness. I sought my own way. I didn’t join another church because none “got it right”, yet I didn’t think the Catholic Church got it right either. I dug and prodded and read the Gospels until I got it broken down to the basics of basics. Then as I built my faith back up, I found I missed the “discipline”, the sacraments, the Eucharist. So I came home. It took some prayerful times and work, but it is indeed worth it.

Peace
James

James,
Refreshingly honest. It sounds like your reversion has been a blessing to you.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

I am glad you are open-minded about the Church… (refreshing after all i have been through :whacky: ).

Thanks for that.
Jon

 

[distracted]

Just as I thought - you have no choice but to admit that you have to use non-Biblical sources to “defend” purgatory.

that is totally un-true… there ARE Scriptures concerning the afterlife/Purgatory. The word Purgatory may not be in the Bible… but the word Bible isn’t there either… Accepting Christ as personal savior isn’t there either… (etc, etc.)…

and besides, you Protestants are wrong to put God in a box (a small book, namely the Bible).The Bible itself says that if all that Jesus did and said were written down, all the books on Earth could not contain it all … The Catholic Church (the One Christ established) has the fullness of Christ (what He wanted us to have… what He knew we NEEDED to have)…

of Scripture which says only the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from sin.

How do you know that it is not the Blood of Jesus that cleanses in Purgatory?? Jesus is the one who cleanses from sin, whether here on Earth or wherever…

can never match the blood of Jesus!! God will give His glory to NO OTHER!! !:tsktsk:

Who said anything contrary to that??

 

[grandfather]

The name’s James not Joe.

Thank you for sharing your testimony about the hospital. It is very moving.

 

[JRKH]

JRKH;3777868:

The name’s James not Joe.

I believe that was my testimony, not Protestant’s. It was meant to demonstrate that there is valid spiritual experience that we learn from outside scripture. The doctrine sola scriptura denies this, even though Protestants can have such experience.

Hmmmm…
Well what I responded to was under Protestant101’s name related to his nursing experience.

Peace
James

 

[grandfather]

I think It goes to what some have said in this forum:
Those leaving your church may be wanting out of the structure, seeking less structure (more personal “freedom”) offered in SS protestantism.
Those n-C’s like me who are considering the CC, may be looking for the structure.
That’s a really broad brush, but what do you think?
Once again, hope no one else here minds our mildly off-topic exchange.
Jon

I don’t know what it is like to be a non-Catholic looking in, or curious, or drawn to Catholicism. I was baptized Catholic at a week or two old and have never embraced another religion. I suspect that there are a number of things that draw different people to the Church, but they are secondary. It is the Holy Ghost, God who works on our souls, whether that is to become part of His Church or repent of our sins. I have observed something interesting in converts. As they get closer to the big decision they have objections, things they don’t get, or struggle with embracing or accepting. They have to work through them. For many it is falling in love with Mary. They think that somehow this takes something away from Jesus that belongs to Him. Protestant keeps writing about God not sharing His glory with anyone. Everything that God touches bears His glory. His fingerprints are on all of creation. We see it in the splendor of a waterfall or flower or the galaxies. We give glory to God, because He made us and our souls echo what He puts in us. God glorifies His saints and they give glory to Him. Jesus tells us to love one another. Do you think we should love each other and not His mother? Love one another, but don’t love my mother. Anyway, whatever it is that impedes the soul being drawn to the Church ends up becoming a great treasure to that same soul. How could I say if you need the structure of Catholicism, because I have never lacked it and don’t know what not having it is like. I don’t even know what it is for sure, never think about it and probably take it for granted. It may be like having eyes. We don’t think about what it is like to see everyday. We have sight and use it. I love God’s Church and love being part of her and thank God for the sacraments, the saints, the devotions, doctrines, the ancientness and newness, all the smells and bells, the beauty of His house. It is all mine. I hope it will be yours, and Protestant101’s.

 

[po18guy]

Hi Grandfather,
Since we’ve drifted off the thread’s topic, a couple of thoughts.

Your comments are not brutal, but mind compared to some of the other posts by Catholics and n-c’s alike on this thread.

I care about what Luther said! I’m a cradle Lutheran. My baptism and faith in Christ came in the Lutheran Church. To the extent that I am evaluating where I am now, I would not be here had it not been for the Lutheran Church. In fact, being Lutheran, and reading Luther more critically lately has lead me here. I may swim the Tiber someday, and if I do, I must give some credit to Luther for my early “swimming” lessons.

Blessings,
Jon

Well said, Jon. Your experience parallels very well that of many who have converted. They are uniformly thankful to their prior church and congregations for bringing them along so far. You’ve visited the Coming Home Network? (www.chnetwork.org/)

Christ’s peace.

p.s. the vociferousness of replies here, on all sides, stems from what is perceived as insult or attack. You can see how easily such misunderstandings occur using a “sola scriptura” format. The human elements of speech are not present in the solely written word. If this was a conference call, discourse would be much more civil in nature.

 

[po18guy]

I don’t know what it is like to be a non-Catholic looking in, or curious, or drawn to Catholicism. I was baptized Catholic at a week or two old and have never embraced another religion. I suspect that there are a number of things that draw different people to the Church, but they are secondary. It is the Holy Ghost, God who works on our souls, whether that is to become part of His Church or repent of our sins. I have observed something interesting in converts. As they get closer to the big decision they have objections, things they don’t get, or struggle with embracing or accepting. They have to work through them. For many it is falling in love with Mary. They think that somehow this takes something away from Jesus that belongs to Him. Protestant keeps writing about God not sharing His glory with anyone. Everything that God touches bears His glory. His fingerprints are on all of creation. We see it in the splendor of a waterfall or flower or the galaxies. We give glory to God, because He made us and our souls echo what He puts in us. God glorifies His saints and they give glory to Him. Jesus tells us to love one another. Do you think we should love each other and not His mother? Love one another, but don’t love my mother. Anyway, whatever it is that impedes the soul being drawn to the Church ends up becoming a great treasure to that same soul. How could I say if you need the structure of Catholicism, because I have never lacked it and don’t know what not having it is like. I don’t even know what it is for sure, never think about it and probably take it for granted. It may be like having eyes. We don’t think about what it is like to see everyday. We have sight and use it. I love God’s Church and love being part of her and thank God for the sacraments, the saints, the devotions, doctrines, the ancientness and newness, all the smells and bells, the beauty of His house. It is all mine. I hope it will be yours, and Protestant101’s.

Beautifully said.

 

[JonNC]

To a number of you,
Thanks for your kind, supportive words. As a cradle Lutheran whose father was a Lutheran pastor, even getting to here has been a struggle.

Grandfather,

Originally Posted by grandfather
I have observed something interesting in converts. As they get closer to the big decision they have objections, things they don’t get, or struggle with embracing or accepting. They have to work through them. For many it is falling in love with Mary. They think that somehow this takes something away from Jesus that belongs to Him. Protestant keeps writing about God not sharing His glory with anyone. …
God glorifies His saints and they give glory to Him. Jesus tells us to love one another. Do you think we should love each other and not His mother? Love one another, but don’t love my mother.

On the issue of Mary, I am past that because I read, guess who?, Luther, whose love of the Blessed Virgin is documented. One of my problems right now is that I see a Lutheran Church (mine, not the ELCA, which is a whole other story) that isn’t Luther’s. Luther’s is much closer to what I hear coming from folks like you.
And Mary is an excellent example.
I look at Transubstantiation and “in, with, and under” in the light of the Apology of the Augsburg Confession which says;

The Tenth Article has been approved, in which we confess that we believe, that in the Lord’s Supper the body and blood of Christ are truly and substantially present, and are truly tendered, with those things which are seen, bread and wine, to those who receive the Sacrament.

and I say, why the quibble? And then I say, if there isn’t a quibble, why the division? But I ramble on.

Thanks again for your kindness.
Jon

 

[Lilyflower]

Yes, you are correct, and I took that into consideration when I made the post. I actually believe that this is what most Catholics intend, by their use of the word “Purgatory.”

I am often asked by Non-Catholics ‘where is purgatory?’

It isn’t anywhere! That is the honest answer. Yes we believe in it, but the fact still remains it is not located anywhere.

It is a process not a place.

 

[po18guy]

To a number of you,
Thanks for your kind, supportive words. As a cradle Lutheran whose father was a Lutheran pastor, even getting to here has been a struggle.

Grandfather,

On the issue of Mary, I am past that because I read, guess who?, Luther, whose love of the Blessed Virgin is documented. One of my problems right now is that I see a Lutheran Church (mine, not the ELCA, which is a whole other story) that isn’t Luther’s. Luther’s is much closer to what I hear coming from folks like you.
And Mary is an excellent example.
I look at Transubstantiation and “in, with, and under” in the light of the Apology of the Augsburg Confession which says;

and I say, why the quibble? And then I say, if there isn’t a quibble, why the division? But I ramble on.

Thanks again for your kindness.
Jon

Jon, the sad fact is that even Lutherans have abandoned Luther for the most part! Luther was Catholic. He rebelled against, not so much the church, but corrupt members of that church. The unfortunate result was the shattering of unity in the Body of Christ. All this while Satan’s body remains united in evil. Is it any wonder why our world looks as it does? It has become a battle of ants (denominations) against the evil Behemoth. We will prevail, but there would be far less trouble were Christ’s mystical body united in love.

The following is not in scripture, so millions of Christians have never heard this. The Apostle John, in his last years, had to be carried to church on his mat, not being able to walk. He would often say only “Love one another” as his exhortation to the congregation. This is preserved in tradition, but lost to those who are bible only.

Jon, the deeper into church history you delve, the more you will be drawn to the Catholic church. It is about obedience to Christ. It is denying yourself, taking up your cross daily, and following Christ. We welcome you, who have a seeking heart. Knock, and it will be opened unto you.

Christ’s peace.

 

[grandfather]

On the issue of Mary, I am past that because I read, guess who?, Luther, whose love of the Blessed Virgin is documented. One of my problems right now is that I see a Lutheran Church (mine, not the ELCA, which is a whole other story) that isn’t Luther’s. Luther’s is much closer to what I hear coming from folks like you.
And Mary is an excellent example.

All that I know about Luther’s theology on the Eucharist comes from what Catholic’s have written or said. They accuse Luther of believing consubstantiation.