J
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Lilyflower
Guest
Thanks for reminding me to get back on track.
usccb.org/comm/archives/2006/06-212.shtml
As a Lutheran, I believe that I am cleansed by the grace of God, through Jesus Christ. If, as Father Tavard says, the above is Catholic teaching today, the only significant difference seems to be the punishment aspect, in that I believe Christ bore that on the Cross for me.
thoughts?
Jon
Lutherans have never used the term consubstantiation, because it is sometimes used in regard to a spiritual presence, which we deny. Luther said “in, with, and under”, but this was after the Apology of the Augsburg confession. Wish he would have left it alone.
I’ll speculate: it seemed too “Catholic”.
Jon
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Lilyflower
Guest
po18guy
Well-known member
Christ certainly paid the price, but it is up to us to accept or reject His salvation. To accept means to follow the teachings of the church He founded. The elephant in the living room of non-Denom Christians remains post-baptismal sin. How is it dealt with? We all die with some level of personal sin. You cannot enter heaven with sin, since nothing impure may enter the Kingdom. How is it cleansed? It cannot be automatic, or we need not keep Christ’s commands. He gave the Apostles power over sin. It was for a reason that he did this, and it is exercised to this day as reconciliation.
However, very few collapse and die in the confessional, so how is their remaining sin cleansed? It must be after death and prior to entering the Kingdom, right? From this point, the early doctrine of purgatory developed. The Lord’s grace is so immense that He certainly allows for the just to be “showered off” before they enter through the gate.
Christ’s peace.
Elaborate.I suggest you re-read the reference you supplied.
Blessings and peace
Jon
So, this is an instantanious thing, and the “showering” is by the grace of God through Jesus Christ, and because of His atonement. Is this a different explanation than what Luther opposed with indulgences and such in his 95 Theses?
Jon
C
Cathdefender
Guest
Still waiting for Pro101 to answer the question. Defend your faith if you feel it is the true faith of Christ.
:coffeeread: Boy, all this coffee isn’t good for me…
:coffeeread: Boy, all this coffee isn’t good for me…
po18guy
Well-known member
Frankly, I’ve never read the 95 theses. I have but a simple, layman’s explanation of what it is believed, and taught, to be. Simply put, no one knows, but from what we do know, it must be an after death purgation. Some people think it is related to time, but I believe it is more akin to pain, as our sins have caused pain in this life, as well as offending God.
I may read up on the 95, just to know.
The sale of indulgences continues to this day, but you must turn on the TV to see it. Several of the televangelists will promise you graces, whatever, in exchange for your “love gift” Indulgences are a valid concept. Selling them for gain, not so valid. No different from selling any other grace, or Sacrament. They are gifts from God, but indulgences are merited through faith and sacrificial behavior, not purchased, and certainly not sold.
Christ’s peace.
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Lilyflower
Guest
The reference is to the ‘here and now’ at the moment of death. We ALL know that we must occupy a place at the moment of death seeings we are still physical bodies in space and time. Thus we must also be at the moment of death!
A Po18guy has already pointed out, logic dictates there has to be an ‘accounting’ and a purifying of sins committed not confessed and reconciled, else there would not be any need to keep Christ’s commands else no matter what we do, we would be guarranteed forgiveness.
Actually the concept of purgatory is more in keeping with Christ’s sacrifice than the alternative which by definition makes a mockery of Christ’s atonement by suggesting His teachings were really not necessary. There is no need to keep the law as law-keepers and law-breakers are all atoned for anyhow.
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grandfather
Guest
G
grandfather
Guest
Jon,
Thanks, all, for your explanations.
Jon
Here is an explanation of the pains or punishment of purgatory that made sense to me. If I recall I read it in a work by Fr. Reginald Garrogou-Lagrange. He was a Dominican theologian who was John Paul II’s professor when studying for his doctorate.
When you think of punishment the image that comes to your mind is pain or discomfort being meted out. Purgatorial pain is not like that. Garrigou-Lagrange taught that the pain is caused by seeing the results and consequences of your sin. Imagine that you were driving your car and ran over a child and the child was crippled for life. You were not paying attention and could have avoided the accident if you were. How would you feel? The internal anguish of knowing you caused harm and pain to a child and made the child suffer and there was nothing you could do about it would cause you to suffer. Now imagine at judgement you see the consequneces of your sins, the harm you have caused by them as they echo across all time. Garrigou-Lagrange taught that these pains can be experienced in this life. They are accompanied with great remorse, self loathing, anguish. You know you are forgiven. You know God loves you. You are redeemed, pardoned, ransomed. You even forgive yourself, but coming face to face with the evil you have done and seeing the damage and pain it brings on others has to be suffered through.
Now imagine that when the moment of death comes you are attached to some sin. You are not yet perfected. I hope that does not happen to you, but suppose it does. Maybe you have not forgiven someone else who hurt you. There is some lingering resentment of some petty grudge. I knew a Baptist minister who I had a lot of respect for, knowing he helped many people. He had a tough life healthwise and died fairly young. He had narcolepsy for over twenty years and serious bouts with cancer, chemo, radiation, three of four times. He had a fungus that got into his brain or nervous system. A year or two before he died his wife left him for another man. In his last days she wanted to see him and say she was sorry. He was in a hosptial bed and was told she was in the building. He gave orders to not allow her in the room. She sat in the waiting room for days. She wanted to ask for forgiveness and he refused it. He made her suffer and then he died. He died with his soul clinging to bitterness and anger. He hoped for mercy and refused it to another sinful soul. I was praying that he would relent and some kind of reconciliation would happen. It did not. That was the condition and attitude he willed for his soul and it remained until his last breath. I hope he is heaven bound, but he could not enter heaven a place where there is no imperfection, in that state. It is not like souls undergoing purification long to be in heaven and are prevented from entering by armed guards. They do not want to be in a place while they remain unready. They want all the dross removed, burned off. The minister would not want to be in God’s presence full of the impurity of resentment and rancor, having withheld mercy. Seeing what he did will cause him pain, self inflicted pain. Call it torment. You can see why Catholics pray for a holy death.
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Protestant101
Guest
Well; that “process” has to take place somewhere. Would it be in the grave? Or maybe in heaven? The catacombs of Vatican City? Gotta be more to it than that? Are you reflecting official Catholic teachings in that comment?
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Vincent
Guest
It’s probably simplistic to think of it as a place in the sense of a location in a Cartesian coordinate system, for example, since the human soul is a spiritual reality, which takes no space. John Paul II can therefore say that “‘Purgatory’] does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence.”
Yet, there is a sense in which could say that it is a “somewhere” by analogy. Benedict XVI describes it as a transforming encounter with Christ after this life: “The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves.” We might say that this transitional experience takes “place” “where” one relates to Christ, that is, “in” the heart.
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Cathdefender
Guest
Pro101, still waiting…:coffeeread:
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distracted
Guest
Purgatory is also here on Earth… doing what Jesus commands is difficult - it involves going against our very natures… and when we do that, we are purging our souls… Saints have said that it is better to do one’s Purgatory here on Earth rather than in t he next life… It is far more painful in the next life, from what i have heard…
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Cathdefender
Guest
I don’t think earth is purgatory (who really knows), because life can be beautiful. God’s earth is beautiful if you make your life that way. There are a lot of terrible things that happen in the world and I don’t know why, but I thank God every day I am alive and enjoying my health, that I am blessed without illness at least right now.
So we can look at it as half empty or half full.
D
distracted
Guest
if you are enjoying life too much, you are not doing what Jesus said to do… we are not put here to only enjoy life… though we are not prohibited from enjoying it sometimes…
Jesus said we would be hated by all becaue of Him (living as He wants, telling others about Him)… not always so “beautiful”…
and it certainly isn’t beautiful for the unborn… and mnay others…
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