Protestant said praying to Mary isn’t in the bible

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I’m not Catholic, but even I know Pope Francis is a very humble man and is only worth that much money because he’s the head of the Church and as the head, the art work, jewels, etc., bestowed on the Church over the millenia happen to be included in that wealth. Personally, I don’t think he has a lot or even wants a lot materially.
 
So your main disagreement as a jewish believer, that Jesus cannot be the Messiah, is that you believe the New Heaven and earth will immediately at Christ’s First Coming?

Where does it say in your scriptures Jewish friend, that the New heaven and New Jerusalem will be immediately at Christ’s First Coming?

Where does it say that there will not be a waiting period between Christ’s First coming and Second Coming?
 
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It says it in Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel. You need to go read them. I feel no need to defend my faith. It needs no defense.
 
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Please quote, we have quoted for you.

Where does it say specifically: that the Everlasting New Heaven will be immediately at Christ’s First Coming?
 
Please read my post. I have no need to defend my faith as it needs no defense. Jews do not evangelize. Not interested in a pointless back-and-forth with anyone. I did not ask you to quote. Read the original Hebrew, although it says what I’ve indicated in English as well.
 
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Constant Learner: ‘I have no need to defend my faith.’

No need to defend your Jewish faith that you believe Jesus is not the Messiah because He will have a Second Coming to fulfill the jewish prophecies? ,

Have a read of this document:

The Old Testament does mention a First and Second Coming of the Messiah,

www.gotquestions.org

Does the Old Testament truly predict a second advent of the Messiah? | GotQuestions.org

Does the Old Testament truly predict a second advent of the Messiah? Do the Hebrew Scripture teach that the Messiah’s ministry will be divided into two advents?
www.gotquestions.org
 
YoungCatholicGuy said:
Where does it say specifically: that the Everlasting New Heaven will be immediately at Christ’s First Coming?
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What prophecy says specifically that it won’t? It doesn’t. See how pointless the whole thing is? Just enjoy your faith and stop challenging others or trying to change them.
 
Good article on why it’s a myth that the Church is so wealthy and lives in luxury.
http://catholicbridge.com/catholic/isnt-church-rich.php

Also quite hypocritical for fundies to accuse the Catholic church of living in luxury when they have their own huge lavish megachurches across the country. They aren’t exactly what I’d call “poor”.
 
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Basically if God decided to send the Messiah, fulfill 300 prophecies of the jewish scriptures, decided to return to Heaven and fulfill the remaining prophecies of the New Heaven and New Earth at His Second Coming, that your jewish beliefs say ‘he cannot be the Messiah because He is fulfilling the prophecies in 2 parts?’

Who else in history has fulfilled 300 prophecies of the jewish scriptures and is Not the Messiah?
 
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ConstantLearner said:
enjoy your faith and stop challenging others or trying to change them.
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And therein lies a fundamental difference between Judaism and Catholicism. We most certainly will not. As Catholics we believe that our faith contains the fullness of truth. It would make no sense for us not to try to brings others to it. Why would we let people continue to believe in what we think is wrong? We are called to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ to all nations. Choosing to let people continue to believe in what we view is wrong and, in some cases, evil, would be uncharitable.
 
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In answer to the your opinion of Jewish scriptures mentioning only 1 Coming of Christ:

Jewish Scriptures do mention two Comings of Jesus:

A careful look at Old Testament prophecies shows an underlying assumption of two advents. Micah 5:2 and Isaiah 7:14 predict the first advent. Separately, Isaiah 53:8–9 predicts a suffering and dying Messiah, who will be given life and greatness according to Isaiah 53:11–12. Daniel 9:26 describes the Messiah being killed after His appearance. At the same time, prophets such as Zechariah (Zechariah 12:10) say this same “pierced” Messiah will be seen again by His enemies.

Many Old Testament prophecies foretell the ultimate triumph of Christ, which will occur at the second advent. These include statements from the books of Zechariah (Zechariah 9:14–15; 12:10–14; 13:1; 9:14–15); Amos (Amos 9:11–15); Jeremiah (Jeremiah 30:18; 32:44; 33:11, 26); and Joel (Joel 3:1); which describe the Messiah coming in triumph to lead Israel into salvation. Note that these are in the context of passages such as Deuteronomy 30:3–5 and so are predictions of the time of Messiah’s final victory.

Also, Scripture records Jesus making direct comparisons to Old Testament prophecies when making His own claims to a second advent. For example, His words in Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 parallel the descriptions of Isaiah 52:15 and Isaiah 59—62.

All in all, the Hebrew Scriptures indicate that the Promised One would appear, be cut off, and then reappear in victory. The first advent has occurred; the second is still future. Both the New and Old Testaments predict a second advent of the Messiah.
 
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No, they do not mention two comings of the messiah.

“A shoot shall come out from the stump of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of his roots. The spirit of the L-rd shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the L-rd. His delight shall be in the fear of the L-rd. He shall not judge by what his eyes see, or decide by what his ears hear. But with righteousness he shall judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the earth; he shall strike the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked. Righteousness will be the belt around his waist, and faithfulness the belt around his loins. The wolf shall live with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the kid, the calf and the lion and the fatling together and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze, their young shall lie down together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play over the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put its hand on the adder’s den. They will not hurt or destroy on all My holy mountain; for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the L-rd as the waters cover the sea.” Isaiah 11:1-9

"The days are surely coming, says the L-rd, when I will raise up for David a righteous branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will dwell securely. And this is name by which he will be called: The L-rd is our righteousness. Jeremiah 23:5-6 (See also Jeremiah 30:7-10 and 33:14-18)

“My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes. They shall live in the land that I gave to My servant Jacob, in which your ancestors lived; they and their children and their children’s children shall live there forever. And My servant David shall be their prince forever. I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them; and I will bless them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary among them forevermore. My dwelling place shall be with them; I will be their G-d and they shall be My people. Then shall the nations know that I the L-rd, sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is among them forever-more.” Ezekiel 37:24-28 (See also Ezekiel 34:23-31)

Is life like that? Did Jesus, who I respect greatly, bring that about? No, certainly not. And these are the three major prophets.

The whole thing is pointless. You are going to believe what you want to believe, you are going to continue to attack Judaism. I am not going to defend it since it needs no defense, but no one is going to cause me to say Catholicism is right and Judaism is wrong. I’m not trying to change you. Jews do not do that.

You’re off-topic. Why not drop this pointless nonsense since none of us is going to change and get back to the topic: Is praying to Mary in the bible. No, it is not. At any rate even if I were interested, this is not the place to argue this.
 
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MT1926 said:
So respond to him by saying I want believe your interpretation of these scriptures, against the papacy, but you still haven’t given me any Biblical evidence to believe your interpretation is the correct one.
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I’d go back a little further and ask him how he knows which scriptures are ‘God breathed’ because unless you can agree what is and what isn’t sacred scripture you can never get to a true interpretation.

The Bible doesn’t give you a table of contents, it doesn’t even give you the criteria to determine what is sacred scripture. Without the Church you can’t have sacred scripture. And that church must have been founded by Jesus and if so it couldn’t have ‘disappeared’ for thousands of years. So the church founded by Jesus must still exist and be readily visible because an invisible church can’t be found by anyone.
 
Jewish Scriptures mentioning Two Comings of the Messiah;

11 Psalms celebrate the person and work of the coming Messiah, but even though he would be rejected (Ps 118), and betrayed (Pss 69, 109), die and be resurrected (Pss 22, 16), he would come as Conqueror and Enthroned Ruler (Pss 2, 110), as Planner and Groom (Pss 40, 45), and as Triumphant King (Pss 68, 72).

In addition to the previous 15 direct references to the coming Messiah, there are some 39 predictions of the Messiah in the Old Testament prophets. A sample of these announcements before they happened would include these facts. First, it was predicted that Messiah would be born of a virgin (Isa 7:14; cf. Mt 1:33). His birthplace would be Bethlehem (Mic 5:2; cf. Mt 2:1, 6), and John the Baptist would be his forerunner (Isa 40:3-5; Mal 3:1; cf. Mt 3:3, Mk 1:3; Lk 3:4-6).

It was further announced ahead of time that Messiah would enter Jerusalem [what turned out to be Palm Sunday] in Triumph as the crowd shouted “Hosanna” (Zech 9:9-10; Ps 118:25-26; cf. Mt 21:9; Mk 11:9; Lk 19:38; Jh 12:13). But in less than a week, he would be betrayed [by one of his own disciples, Judas, as it turned out] (Ps 69:25; cf. Acts 1:20).

Messiah’s side would be pierced (Zech 12:10; cf. Jh 19:37), and he would suffer vicariously for the sins of the world (Isa 53:6, 9, 12; cf. I Pt 2:21-25; Rom 4:25). Even more dramatically accurate was the fact that Jesus would be killed with the “wicked” ones (Isa 53:9a, note the plural noun in Hebrew) [as he hung between two thieves], yet he would be buried with the rich one (Isa 53:9b, note its singular form in the Hebrew).

But that was not the end of the matter for the predictions about Jesus in the Old Testament, for Messiah would return to earth a second time (Daniel 7:13; cf Mk 13:26; Lk 21:27), and he would one day rule in the city of Jerusalem as King of kings, as the nations would go up to that city to be taught in his ways, never more to “train for war anymore” (Isa 2:3-4).
 
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You are arguing from the Jewish faith, that if God decided the Messiah was to have two comings, that therefore Jesus cannot be the Messiah?

The Old Testament mentions two comings of the Messiah, so therefore Jesus (who already has fulfilled 300+ Jewish Prophecies of the Messiah), IS THE MESSIAH.
 
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Rosie11 said:
No no Mary was the mother of the flesh , Not of God she was the mother of the flesh in which he came through the line of King David … so is he in heaven calling King David great grandad??? Ofcorse not In the beginning was God not Mary , Mary is calling Jesus her Lord and saviour she is not “the queen of heaven”

Why not go directly to the person who can actually save you? Mary can’t save me in the slightest it was Jesus who Paid the price of my sins
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false claim based on personal imagination,now you s dividing Jesus body and spirit its pure heresy and Blasphemy its not in scripture as in said in 2 Peter 1:20 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 because no prophecy ever came by human will, but men and women moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
Rosie11 said:
Why not go directly to the person who can actually save you? Mary can’t save me in the slightest it was Jesus who Paid the price of my sins

Now the “she was a meditator”
Let me make the very very clear THATS BLASPHEMY UNTO THE LORD GOD 1st Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”
Your right I never knew as much as I thought about the RC church because I wouldn’t be found dead saying such a thing that’s pure heresy
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Too confusing to most Christians who have little understanding of basic catholic faith All Prayers go to God, there is no dispute of one God (Holy Trinity) or Mediator between God and men Jesus Christ Catholic worship God (HOLY TRINITY) and not Mary but we only honor her as the Mother of God ,as He does too But saints and Angles are like friends to help us, and intercede for us Mother Mary being the Mother of God, How much more powerful will be, her intercession before God .AS she was born without original sin and she was sinless throughout her life, who bore sufferings, being Holy, assumed into Heaven Body and Soul ,in John 2:2-5 Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3 When the wine gave out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” 4 And Jesus said to her, “Woman, what concern is that to you and to me? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.” .Thus even thought it was not the appointed time and note many places in the Bible Jesus done everything on the appointed time as per the will of God, but Through her intercession she quickened the miracle and everyone’s surprise and everyone glorified Jesus and they believed John 2:11 Jesus did this, the first of his signs, in Cana of Galilee, and revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him Revelation 21:27 But nothing unclean will enter Heaven, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life. But when Jesus is born she had to be without Original Sin a pure vessel to contain Jesus in the womb … Lord Jesus (GOD) had to be born in a women who is sinless.
 
The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the “central mystery of [our] faith” ( Catechism of the Catholic Church 234). It is therefore the most fundamental. If we get it wrong, then everything else gets obscured or perverted.

The Catechism summarizes the Trinity in this way:

We do not confess three Gods but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity.” The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire. . . . In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), “Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature” (CCC 253).

While this description is succinct and precise, it can be overwhelming for laypeople who are not used to technical terms such as consubstantial or essence . They might resort to one of the following inferior ways of sharing the truth of the Holy Trinity that we should all work hard to avoid. Jealousy and partition are the weapons of the Devil
  • The people of some other churches turn firebrands when they speak about Catholics.
James 3:14-18 - But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false to the truth. This wisdom is not such as comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, devilish.

Galatians 5:10 - "He who is troubling you will bear his judgement, whoever he is."
  • He who has not sinned should cast the first stone. If there is wrong doing, forgive and pray. Let us be good Catholics in love and in unity.
What is the price paid by Jesus for the Church?

Acts 20:28 - "Shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of His own Son."

Mark 14:24 -Jesus said to His disciples: "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many."

Colossians 1 :18 - "He is the head of the body, the Church."
  • The Catholic church is the church which Jesus established by shedding His blood, by dying on the Cross.
  • Some people found out the mistakes in the Catholic Church, they judged the church, blamed it and thought that their own newly established church would be superior. Thus thousands of Churches came into being. But no one who established a new church has laid down his life poured out his blood for it!.
  • The spirit of separation is not from God. It sprung from the selfishness and self-centeredness of man.
Who are they who stand against the Church established by Jesus?

Mathew 16:18 - "I tell you, you are Peter; and on this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" said Jesus.
  • Already then Jesus has said : "The powers of hell will fight against the church which I have built, but they will be defeated."
  • Fight by whom? The fight goes on through some weaklings …?
 
Rosie11 said:
I’m going to totally disregard the book of Maccabees as they were added to the Old Testament by the Roman Catholic Church and not kept in the Torah (Old Testament ) by the Jews
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The Jews didn’t keep the New Testament either. What’s his point?

And which Jews had the authority to determine what was and what wasn’t sacred scripture? Because the Pharisees held to one list and the Sadducees and Essenes also had their own list. So there was no Jewish agreement on what was and what wasn’t sacred scripture.

I’m still waiting for him to tell us how he knows what is and what isn’t sacred scripture. Can’t use the Jews as reference because they couldn’t agree among each other.
 
Rosie11 said:
All them short quotes doesn’t mention purgatory your twisting it and trying to imply it speaks of purgatory but never does mention it I could go through each and everyone but I’d be here for hours
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Does he believe in the Trinity? Because that’s not mentioned in scripture either. Perhaps he doesn’t realize that the purpose of scripture is to teach concepts, not limit vocabulary.
 
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