Protestant versus Catholic

[JonNC]

Not me I know its going to happen. Its just gonna take time, and alot of us comming together and having ALOT of GRACE poured into us from the Holy Spriit to make it happen.

And, rinnie, it already happens in the Church Triumphant.

But remember NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD.

Exactly!!

Jon

 

[rinnie]

Pastor Gary, again thanks for being so kind and having patience with me, and got a few more questions if you don’t mind. Usually people just blow me off when I ask them or get angry with me.

Here they are,

Matt 13:32 sin against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this age OR THE NEXT?

1 John 5:16-17 Distinction from deadly sins and ones not so deadly?

Rev. 21:27 Nothing unclean will be allowed to enter into heaven.

Matt. 12:32 You will have to account for every sin in judgement day, This one especially. Because here is how I see it. Now St Paul says he is working out his salvation with fear, etc. Now what I see him saying he has no clue what God may have not liked about his work, and he knows God may find fault. And it will happen on this day judgement day. Thats where I see them 2 scriptures tie together.

Thankx Buddy

 

[Bbigam]

And, rinnie, it already happens in the Church Triumphant.

Excellent point! There is no disunity of any type within the Church Triumphant. And when we are all there (those of us who, by the grace of God, make it there), the whole Church will indeed be in full unity. What a great day that will be!

 

[gcnuss]

Matt 13:32 sin against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this age OR THE NEXT?

I believe it is possible for one to reject God and to remain obstinate in that rejection. Such a person would not care for forgiveness as that would bring them into God’s nearer presence, IMHO.

1 John 5:16-17 Distinction from deadly sins and ones not so deadly?

All sin works to separate us from God. The concept of deadly (mortal) sin versus not so deadly (venial) sin is reasonable. We live it out in our civic lives where crimes such as murder or treason, etc., may be considered capital offenses while jaywalking or illegal parking are considered in a different light. The more serious offenses separate us from God or from society. The lesser offenses impair our relationships with God or society but don’t separate us. That’s a far too simplistic explanation, but I hope you see where I’m going.

Rev. 21:27 Nothing unclean will be allowed to enter into heaven.

No problem with this. The only question is what the soul needs to be cleansed of and what it takes to accomplish that cleansing. Revelation also tells that that the great multitude in heaven is clothed in robes that have been made white in the blood of the Lamb. Is it possible that the blood of the Lamb is all that is needed to get us ready to enter heaven?

Matt. 12:32 You will have to account for every sin in judgement day, This one especially. Because here is how I see it. Now St Paul says he is working out his salvation with fear, etc. Now what I see him saying he has no clue what God may have not liked about his work, and he knows God may find fault. And it will happen on this day judgement day. Thats where I see them 2 scriptures tie together.

Indeed we will have to answer for our sins, but we do not have the power to justify ourselves before God. There is only one who can do this and that is our Lord. Something that has come to my mind – I don’t know if I am misinterpreting it – is a phrase from the Chaplet of Divine Mercy with I sometimes watch on EWTN. Trusting my memory, one of the responses is “I offer you the body and blood, soul and divinity of your dearly beloved Son, our Lord Jesus Christ.” It has occurred to me that when I am called to account on the day of judgment, that would be my only response – I will not be able to justify myself by anything that I can give but I will have to rely on that which has been given for me. I haven’t studied the theology of the Chaplet to learn if that is what it intends, but it resonated that way with me.

I don’t know if I have answered your questions or not. I certainly hope that I haven’t confused things too much.

 

[Protestant101]

True, Peter did deny Christ not once but 3 times. Makes us wonder what our lesson was here, not just Peter’s, do you not agree?

But you are right how many of us do the right thing? But here is a point to ponder also. Peter did indeed deny Christ 3 times as I stated. But Why? Because Peter was being human and was scared. Would we not all be?

But what did Peter do after he denied Christ? He cried did he not? He repented and he was sorry. I have heard it is told through ST that Peter cried so hard that he actually had welts on his face for what he did.

But see God knew Peter. God picked Peter. God even warned him he was going to betray him. But God knew Peters heart didn’t he.

And when Jesus came back what did he say to Peter 3 times. Get it 3 times. He told Peter 3 times to lead the Church and Peter knew why. He denied Christ 3 times but was forgiven wasn’t he. See God did not have to use the WORDS Peter I forgive you. But he did get his point across.

Jesus prayed for Peter. And Peter still was weak at times. Because like us he is human. But Peter did what was asked of him. And he did real good!!

P.S. Peter was converted the first moment he saw Jesus and left his boat and followed Christ!

Yes; I agree with most of your post rinnie! I didn’t mean to denigrate or criticise Peter in any ways; I was just trying to illustrate our very human condition, and Peter’s experience was a good example to use. We need to be careful of what we “brag” about.

 

[gcnuss]

Okay that would make sense then, Kinda.

See to us when the person is separated from the body, the moment of death, the soul departs from the body right away. Thats why its ashes to ashes dust to dust. Just like when God breathed life into Adam.

So in a way from what you wrote you either have a different belief of the soul leaving the body or you feel that the person has a certain time period for God to accept them or deny them Not sure what you are saying. Sorry sometimes I need people to explain things a llittle better to me. But its better to ask then to misunderstand

See in the CC that person is commited to Gods care after that last breath is taken. It is then that the person is judged. Long before the funeral. You are either deemed worthy of heaven or you are not.

I agree that the soul exits the body at death. We need to remember, though, that funerals are largely for the sake of the living. The focus of the funeral is on the promise of the resurrection to reassure the mourners that death is not final – Christ has overcome sin, death, and the devil – that the one who has died has moved from the Church Militant to the Church Triumphant, or to the Church Suffering, a term I have heard used to describe the souls in Purgatory.

Then as you know purgatory sets in. If you are worthy you may still need the final Bath

But how long and etc is between you and God. Thats why we pray for the souls of purgatory if people only knew what 1 prayer from us could do Its amazing. You could cut a person out of 2 or more years of Purgatory time just guessing but I think you get my point by just one prayer.

Anothewords a person may be very close and that one Prayer that took us a second could do alot.

Here’s where I run into difficulty. Do prayers offered for the souls in Purgatory erase some or all of the stain of sin that must be removed, thus hastening the cleansing process? I suppose that this is a difference between us in that we would say that death places all control in God’s hands.

Now the Prayers in Thanksgiving for the Saints I agree with, and we are exactly the same there. But we believe when our loved ones reach heaven they become Saints.

But we can never assume. So I am 99.9% sure my Brother and Papa are in heaven. But I still cannot play God. So I pray for them, and ask God if they are in heaven to give that prayer to the next person on the List Or let God choose who he wants to give it too.

I like that. If my loved one no longer has need of my prayers, pass them out to those in need.

I think I’ll quit for now. It’s getting late and my brain cells seem to want to shut down.

God’s blessings to you.

 

[rinnie]

Yes; I agree with most of your post rinnie! I didn’t mean to denigrate or criticise Peter in any ways; I was just trying to illustrate our very human condition, and Peter’s experience was a good example to use. We need to be careful of what we “brag” about.

Oh no problem buddy, I did not think thats what you were trying to do. I was just showing how we can find alot of US in Peter if we try.

ANd yes I agree never get too sure of ourself, If we do God has a way to humble us. OR as I tell my Kids a way of knocking you down a couple pegs. But its always for the better. LIke a Parent correct’s its children GOd will always Correct us.

 

[rinnie]

gcnus, Will get back to you later next week. It’s the fourth and everyone is comming over.

Hey you guys wanna come over. Welcome. Mind as well. Everyone else is

Go the pool cleaned, the food cooked, the beer is ICE COLD and the Weather is BURNING HOT. ITs going to be over 90 for the next 4 days.

Have a blessed and wonderful 4th you will ALL be in my prayers. And if not to busy maybe send the rinster a prayer or two Hope you all have a wonderful 4th. Talk to ya soon.:kiss4you:

 

[VetA]

i told you not to respond!:tsktsk: your just gonna get yourself in trouble once again. then i have to wait to converse with you again. Jesus loves you. and wants you come to him. i will not give up, until i get a message that you have received the love of Christ into your life. and that you have nothing but love for his Church. as St. Augustines mother prayed for him. i will pray for you. and return your venom with Charity. you are my pet project, and i will persist in prayer for your soul. i hope one day to see you at the feet of Jesus. i for one, am my brothers keeper. and you my friend, are going to be my brother. you just dont realize it yet. i have faith. Peace

he didnt listen to you and done gone and got himself banned

 

[gcnuss]

…the beer is ICE COLD…

Ah, a “traditional” Lutheran beverage. Sorry I can’t make it.:crying:

 

[rinnie]

Hi gcnus, What a week!:tanning: Boy did it fly.

Now to get back to what you asked. I do not think anyone can answer how much our prayers really help in this world or in purgatory just that prayers work. We just know that if we pray for someone and ask God to help them when we are not able, he can and does.

Look at Job, his kids were bad remember. But Job continued to pray for his kids and ask for Gods mercy. And remember what God said to Jobs friends, ask Job to pray for you because he was in the grace of God at the time and they were not. Because remember what God said ask Job to pray for you I will answer Job’s prayers.

Now you are completely correct in saying that by his death on the cross Christ accomplished all by the cross. But answer me this how is the redemption applied to us?

Scripture says that it is applied to us over the course of time. Through the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy. Romans 5:3-5

Santification involves suffering does it not? Purgatory is the FINAL phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying Redemption that he accomplished by his death on the cross.

Because think about it, Christ did not Do it all for us, he made it POSSIBLE for us. What I mean by that is he gave us a role also. He did not just say there, everyones saved by my death on the cross. If so then EVERYONES getting in, and the protestants are right. We have nothing to do in this life to do, God did it all for us. Did he not give us good works to do. Remember faith without good works are fruitless.

Now you kind of misuderstood what I was asking you in Matt 12:32 Christs refers to the sinner who WILL NOT be forgiven in this age or in the age to come. Now think about that? If there is only heaven or hell at the time of death, And if you are deemed to Hell thats it, how can you be forgiven in the age to come? Where is the age to come if not hell? Heaven? That would not make sense. Because in heaven you are free from sin, and forgiven and deemed righteous and are completely clean. Because nothing unclean can enter heaven. So if you are forgiven in the age to come, where is that? Hell? Scripture also says no. So where is the age to come that your sins can be forgiven. Purgatory to us. What do you call that Place?

Now in order to enter heaven you must be Completely not only from sin, but from the stain of sin. It is through repentance that we gain grace needed to enter heaven. Yes we have been forgiven and our soul is spiritually ALIVE. But thatis not sufficient for gaining entrance to heaven, it needs to be cleansed completely.

Now in 2 Thes. 2:13 God chose us to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit. So right there, it is not a option something that might be required it is a requirement that must be acquired 12:14 Heb. 12:14 we must strive for the holiness without it no one will see the lord!

You have it different then us. We do not see our suffering in sanctification taking away from Christ’s suffering on the cross, It was the CROSS that PRODUCES our sanctification which results in our suffering because although our suffering is painfull it yields that peaceful fruit of righteousness (Heb. 12:11)

Like my Dad always told me our suffering is brought on either by our sin or others, But either way we are going to suffer. He always told me when I suffer, Jesus was perfect and they crucified him, What do you think they will do to you? But on the other hand it is in that suffering that we are not being punished per say (which I disagree with Papa on that, I believe God punishes us but it is in that suffering, punishment, etc that we gain understanding. Papa said we all have to carry our cross and pain for all of our sin. In either this world or the next. (see where he got that)

But are we not put here to carry our cross? Our we not put here to suffer. My Papa says :sad_yes: and to make it worse he says the closer you are to God the more you are going to suffer. Because this is not your world, just like its not Gods world. If it was we would not have killed him. But he knew when he came this was not his world. It was a world full of hate, and sin and thats why he came to take that all away and open heaven.

Papa says this is the devils world and thats why when people cheat, and lie, and steal and keep getting more not to worry about it. Because this is their world and this is the short world, to hang on and no matter how bad it seems that we sometimes will have to wait to see God in heaven to get our reward. But he said thats okay because that the world that lasts forever. This one is short:shrug:

 

[Protestant101]

gcnus, Will get back to you later next week. It’s the fourth and everyone is comming over.

Hey you guys wanna come over. Welcome. Mind as well. Everyone else is

Go the pool cleaned, the food cooked, the beer is ICE COLD and the Weather is BURNING HOT. ITs going to be over 90 for the next 4 days.

Have a blessed and wonderful 4th you will ALL be in my prayers. And if not to busy maybe send the rinster a prayer or two Hope you all have a wonderful 4th. Talk to ya soon.:kiss4you:

Why didn’t you invite me too?

 

[Protestant101]

Because think about it, Christ did not Do it all for us, he made it POSSIBLE for us. What I mean by that is he gave us a role also. He did not just say there, everyones saved by my death on the cross. If so then EVERYONES getting in, and the protestants are right. We have nothing to do in this life to do, God did it all for us. Did he not give us good works to do. Remember faith without good works are fruitless.

Not all Protestants teach this…

 

[rinnie]

Not all Protestants teach this…

Good

 

[rinnie]

Why didn’t you invite me too?

You were invited You ALL were. It was a real good time. Spent most of the time in the Pool playing volleyball! Jamey Johnson on CD I invited him but he didn’t come:bighanky: He is at the Butler county fair tonight. My son actually invited me to Go with him and his friends. But we didn’t fall for it this time Knew the old we love you Mom now pay the tab story.

If you like Waylon and Hank Jr you would LOVE us. And of course Straight too

 

[rinnie]

Ah, a “traditional” Lutheran beverage. Sorry I can’t make it.:crying:

Thats okay Love I will get you some WINE from Father at Church The GOOD STUFF

 

[Protestant101]

Thats okay Love I will get you some WINE from Father at Church The GOOD STUFF

Did you recover from that wine yet Rinnie? LOL, I know I would have to. I am sure you have tea at your house if I ever make it over?

 

[schaick]

the perpetual virginity of Mary is not optional to believe…

Where and when did GOD or Jesus say that for my salvation I must believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary?

 

[qui_est_ce]

Now you are completely correct in saying that by his death on the cross Christ accomplished all by the cross. But answer me this how is the redemption applied to us?

Scripture says that it is applied to us over the course of time. Through the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy. Romans 5:3-5

Santification involves suffering does it not? Purgatory is the FINAL phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying Redemption that he accomplished by his death on the cross.

Because think about it, Christ did not Do it all for us, he made it POSSIBLE for us. What I mean by that is he gave us a role also. He did not just say there, everyones saved by my death on the cross. If so then EVERYONES getting in, and the protestants are right. We have nothing to do in this life to do, God did it all for us. Did he not give us good works to do. Remember faith without good works are fruitless.

Now you kind of misuderstood what I was asking you in Matt 12:32 Christs refers to the sinner who WILL NOT be forgiven in this age or in the age to come. Now think about that? If there is only heaven or hell at the time of death, And if you are deemed to Hell thats it, how can you be forgiven in the age to come? Where is the age to come if not hell? Heaven? That would not make sense. Because in heaven you are free from sin, and forgiven and deemed righteous and are completely clean. Because nothing unclean can enter heaven. So if you are forgiven in the age to come, where is that? Hell? Scripture also says no. So where is the age to come that your sins can be forgiven. Purgatory to us. What do you call that Place?

Now in order to enter heaven you must be Completely not only from sin, but from the stain of sin. It is through repentance that we gain grace needed to enter heaven. Yes we have been forgiven and our soul is spiritually ALIVE. But thatis not sufficient for gaining entrance to heaven, it needs to be cleansed completely.

Now in 2 Thes. 2:13 God chose us to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit. So right there, it is not a option something that might be required it is a requirement that must be acquired 12:14 Heb. 12:14 we must strive for the holiness without it no one will see the lord!

You have it different then us. We do not see our suffering in sanctification taking away from Christ’s suffering on the cross, It was the CROSS that PRODUCES our sanctification which results in our suffering because although our suffering is painfull it yields that peaceful fruit of righteousness (Heb. 12:11)

Like my Dad always told me our suffering is brought on either by our sin or others, But either way we are going to suffer. He always told me when I suffer, Jesus was perfect and they crucified him, What do you think they will do to you? But on the other hand it is in that suffering that we are not being punished per say (which I disagree with Papa on that, I believe God punishes us but it is in that suffering, punishment, etc that we gain understanding. Papa said we all have to carry our cross and pain for all of our sin. In either this world or the next. (see where he got that)

But are we not put here to carry our cross? Our we not put here to suffer. My Papa says :sad_yes: and to make it worse he says the closer you are to God the more you are going to suffer. Because this is not your world, just like its not Gods world. If it was we would not have killed him. But he knew when he came this was not his world. It was a world full of hate, and sin and thats why he came to take that all away and open heaven.

Papa says this is the devils world and thats why when people cheat, and lie, and steal and keep getting more not to worry about it. Because this is their world and this is the short world, to hang on and no matter how bad it seems that we sometimes will have to wait to see God in heaven to get our reward. But he said thats okay because that the world that lasts forever. This one is short:shrug:

Hi Rinnie-
This is an awesome explanation of Catholic Teaching on sin, suffering, Purgatory, and redemption. :yup::bounce: Do you mind if I copy and paste it to my files?:harp::heaven:

 

[qui_est_ce]

Where and when did GOD or Jesus say that for my salvation I must believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary?

[BIBLEDRB]matt 1:25[/BIBLEDRB]