Protestant vs Orthodox - who's closer?

[Margaret_Ann]

These are the fasting regulations for the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church:

https://royaldoors.net/2017/01/fast...scribed-ukrainian-greek-catholic-church-2015/

I’m Ukrainian Greek Catholic but have cousins who are RO. They are in their 60s & 70s and still keep the traditional Communion fast from midnight as well as all four fasts of the year.

Besides the fact that fasting is good for the soul, it’s also good for the body. When we fast, we naturally detoxify our bodies.

 

[AlNg]

These are the fasting regulations for the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church:

These regulations seem quite lenient in comparison with what I read about some of the E. Orthodox fasting rules:
“Unless a fast-free period has been declared, Orthodox Christians are to keep a strict fast every Wednesday and Friday. The following foods are avoided:
Meat, including poultry, and any meat products such as lard and meat broth.
Fish (meaning fish with backbones; shellfish are permitted).
Eggs and dairy products (milk, butter, cheese, etc.)
Olive oil. A literal interpretation of the rule forbids only olive oil. Especially where olive oil is not a major part of the diet, the rule is sometimes taken to include all vegetable oils, as well as oil products such as margarine.”"
That is every Wednesday and Friday of the year.
http://www.abbamoses.com/fasting.html

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

That is every Wednesday and Friday of the year.

With exceptions such as Bright Week, (and if you are in the Patriarchate of Antioch the Forty Days of Pascha).

 

[AlNg]

With exceptions

Of course, there are the exceptions listed on the link given. Thank you for that.

 

[George720]

Catholic Answers Insider Newsletter just came out with an article on the subject of the OP of this thread, and were quite positive and optimistic about the prospects for their .reconciliation with Protestant Christians…

I pray they are right - Mothers and estranged daughters need reconciliation, and the Daughter here is, with the collapse of Christianity in the West, very much on the ropes and about to be lost altogether… Only the Apostolic Churches have the strength to stand under the demonic weight of our spiritual adversaries… The problem with the Reformation is that, like Adam after his Fall, they are born without the Apostolic Grace of the Mystery of Baptism into Christ, and hence rely on the strength of personal conviction/faith through personal effort to endure in the face of temptation… And in this struggle to endure, without the discipling of the Apostolic discipleship handed down, they have progressively slipped more and more under the lordship of sin, and in this process, they have lost their children more and more, until now they are no longer even a majority in the US…

They need conversion, and Apostolic Baptism into Christ, and discipling by Christ’s Body…

And if they can receive this from Rome due to their natural “affinity in opposition” engendered by their ‘illegitimate’ birth from this “Mother”, and therein attain reconciliation with Her, then May they be Blessed!

And if not, then may they find ANY Apostolic Church for ontological entry into Christ through the hands of the Apostles from the beginnings…

And before we get all puffed up, we all know the difficulty in these times of keeping our own children in the arms of our Holy Mother, the Church…

geo

 

[George720]

Bithynian:

blessing the congregation using the dikirion and trikirion.

Interesting visual but wrong Rite…

I think he just meant an EO Anglican Church in the Eastern Rite…

And indeed they came close, and then withdrew from us, opting not to come under the Orthodox Homophoron, and it was not all that long after that and we find in that Communion practicing homosexual Bishops…

Actions have consequences…

geo

 

[Bithynian]

and then withdrew from us,

Not only from the EO, but also from the Catholics as well. During the 1960s, Michael Ramsey (100th Abp of Canterbury) was happily expouding upon the primacy of St Peter, and he was encouraging Anglicans to reflect upon the myriad ways in which the Bishop of Rome may assist them in their Christian vocations.

This largely underscores the problem: Anglicans were far too unrealistic with their ecumenical dialogue to the extent that they had an enthusiastic finger in every pie (so to speak) and were criticised (both by Anglicans and others) of saying different things to different churches. At one point telling the EO ‘yes, you’re so right about how wrong the Filioque is’ and then turning around and saying to the Catholics ‘yes, you’re so right about how important the Filioque is to our shared patrimony’.

There’s still this certain over-enthusiastic ecumenism amongst liberal Anglo-Catholics, a sort of hope that they will be recognised as a sui iuris particular church (like the EC) by the Pope, or that their autocephaly will be retroactively recognised by a tomos from the Ecumenical Patriarch. It’s so unrealistic that it borders on the delusional, and I’m not sure how they reconcile this ‘hoping against hope’ (Rom 4:18) with their theology being heterodox in several respects (the episcopate, sexual morality, etc.). Robert Duncan, an ACNA Abp, excoriated liberal Anglicanism for its paganism.

 

[GKMotley]

I watch liberal Anglicans from a distance. I don’t recognize your final paragraph. ++Duncan, while not in the conservative Continuum, is not in the liberal Communion, either, and can be expected to condemn establishment Anglicanism for its oddities. Even given his own commitment to ordination of females, the fissure in the ACNA.

The days of ++Ramsey and Paul VI were interesting ones.

 

[Bithynian]

I don’t recognize your final paragraph.

You’re very right. My apologies: I recollected the name incorrectly. It was Abp Foley Beach, ++Duncan’s successor, who wrote of ‘neo-pagan Anglicanism’ in the essay that he contributed to The Future of Orthodox Anglicanism.

 

[GKMotley]

As to that point, yes. ++Duncan and +Iker represent the opposing faces on female presbyters in the ACNA, with ++Beach having to perform the balancing act. No idea how that is going to work out.

 

[littlesoul33]

I think Orthodox are closer. (neither of us worship Saints or Our Lady though, unless you mean the old meaning of the term “worship” which just means respect/veneration. But not actual worship - adoration… that is only for God).

They can’t receive Communion in our churches though. Maybe in danger of death I’m not sure. But only Catholics can receive Communion in the Catholic Church. We should not receive Communion in Orthodox churches either (again, unless danger of death, perhaps).

 

[George720]

Anglicans were far too unrealistic with their ecumenical dialogue to the extent that they had an enthusiastic finger in every pie (so to speak)

Their choices were Russia and Rome, and given their apostasy from Rome, perhaps they should have sought reconciliation with Rome first, but their total apostasy has caused the Apostolic Grace of the Church to withdraw from them… England was never a Sui-juris Church, which is what it perhaps should have been, as was the Russian Church from Constantinople… And the Serbian Church from Constantinople…

But this line of Church establishment was never followed in the West… Spain never became autocephalous, nor any other geographical, and after the Great Schism, this was primarily due to the role Rome sought to and successfully did to maintain Her Papal Superiority and Supremacy over all of Europe…

You see, the discussion on the Marriage of Henry would then have been a matter of other autocephalous Churches withdrawing Communion from the CoE… Or not…

What happened in 1054, with all its false starts, was the withdrawal of Communion of all the Eastern autocephalous Churches’ Communion, except Antioch until quite late, from Rome’s presumption of Papal Supremacy from Her rightful Papal Primacy…

Central rulership of the entire Church from one Petrine Jurisdiction was never a feature of the early Church… Rome had no way of, for instance, administrating India… The Primacy of Peter among the Apostles was never one of having authority over them, but of leading them by example - And he fell in this, not only at the Crucifixion, but even against Paul for hypocrisy in the Faith of Christ… Demonstrating the Power of the Holy Spirit in a non-Petrine Apostle to correct the Petrine Peter himself…

The problem the Reformation could not overcome was their scorn for what they called “Sacramentalism”… They disconnected themselves from Rome in this scorn, and thereby lost their “plug-in” to the “Power Grid” that Christ established in the flesh and on this earth in the Apostolic Church, His Body… Whose Head He IS…

So may they find their way back home, and we should encourage them, to the roots of their God in His one, holy, catholic and Apostolic Church…

geo

 

[Goblin_Taters]

From the Catholic perspective, Orthodox are closer to Catholicism than are Protestants. According to the CCC, the communion between the Orthodox Churches and the Catholic Church "is so profound ‘that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist’ " (838, CCC, https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm) The Orthodox Churches are considered true churches with apostolic succession, while the Protestant churches are ecclesial communities, without apostolic succession and without valid orders.

The Orthodox Churches in general do not see so close a communion with Catholicism, and some Orthodox would even consider Catholics and Protestants closer to each other than either to Orthodoxy.

 

[CoffeeFanatic]

I pray thee , listen.

There are around six different Greek words that are usually translated into English as ‘prayer’. These words encompass supplications, intercessions, thanksgiving, et cetera. Prayer to the saints IS NOT WORSHIP! I Timothy 2:4 upholds the practice of intercession for others, and we are quite cognizant of the fact that Christ’s mediation is what makes intercession possible.

 

[mcq72]

I’ve never worshiped Mary a day in my life. And I hope you don’t either!!

Yes, but is she all seeing, ever present and maybe close to all knowing?

 

[mcq72]

The problem the Reformation could not overcome was their scorn for what they called “Sacramentalism”… They disconnected themselves from Rome in this scorn, and thereby lost their “plug-in” to the “Power Grid” that Christ established in the flesh and on this earth in the Apostolic Church, His Body… Whose Head He IS…So may they find their way back home,

I dare say on any given Monday at the office water cooler, you could not distinguish between a saint who communed “sacramentally” or not the day before at " church". True also at the restaurant for after church brunch.

If by being " plugged in" to “Power Grid” you mean unity, perhaps. But even Jehovah Witnesses have such unity, even liturgical, all hearing same message round the world.

I do not see any more righteous, holy, sacrificial living amongst “sacramentalists” than not. The Spirit is not limited to being bound only to declared sacraments. So there are more ways to qualify " power " than in unity. Kindred spirits do find others to be unified with, and are not “homeless”.

Reformers may have had some scorn about the abuse of the sacraments and other religious practices, just as Jesus did in His day. In fact, the religious gave Him the most problems. The un religious were quicker to accept His healing, having no covering for their Christ illumined shame or lack.

 

[George720]

If by being " plugged in" to “Power Grid” you mean unity

I mean being Baptized into Christ ontologically according to the Great Commission Christ gave to His Apostles… I agree that if unity is meant, then the Power Grid, as I referred to it, is utterly meaningless…

On any given Monday at the office water cooler, you could not distinguish between a saint who communed “sacramentally” or not the day before at " church".

I dare say you could not - But Saints are not normally found at water coolers, though it can happen, obviously… Their work is constant prayer and intercession to God in behalf of those in need… Most Christians are not Saints, but are believers struggling in the Faith… The Saints are the ones who have succeeded and are succeeding in that struggle - eg The mature [perfected] in the Faith that Christ discipled His Disciples to disciple the Nations (ethnoi)…

You see, Protestants generally do not understand nor do they affirm the ontology of Baptism into Christ given by Christ to His Apostles… And the problem with that is the fact that repentance mostly fails, and they find themselves awash in their sins, as Paul describes in Romans 7, speaking of himself as “knowing the Law” - eg as a religious Jew but not a Christian… Struggle against sin is the hidden daily regimen of those Baptized into Christ, and without that Baptism, as Paul indicates - eg for those “knowing the Law” - one has very little chance of overcoming sins…

You see, the Gospel is this: Repent and be Baptized (into Christ) for the Kingdom of Heaven (Christ) is at hand (here and now)… Baptism into Christ, in the early Church, came after a repentance that normally required some 3 years of the praxis of the Faith of Christ… And by it, one was entered BY Christ, Who IS the Head of His Body, the Ekklesia, INTO Christ as a member of His Body…

In a word, Protestants lost the “High Church” understanding of the Faith of Christ…

geo

 

[George720]

I do not see any more righteous, holy, sacrificial living amongst “sacramentalists” than not. The Spirit is not limited to being bound only to declared sacraments.

Any man on earth CAN consecrate himself to God because he is created in the Image of God, and he will find God’s Grace, and God will have Mercy on whom He WILL have mercy… For these, Christ did not incarnate…

And living a pious life of itself will often attract God’s giving of His Grace… Grace indeed abounds in the Protestant Faith… But you see, without Baptism into Christ, one has the Faith of all those spoken of in Hebrews 11, of whom the world is not worthy, and these did not attain the Promise until Christ Incarnated for them…

Christ Himself established His one, holy, catholic and Apostolic Body upon this earth, against which the Gates of Hell shall not prevail… Her martyic history affirms these holy words of Holy Writ… He instructed His Apostles to disciple ALL the ethnoi, teaching them to carefully obey/observe ALL that He had commanded them, Baptizing them…

My Brother, look to the Apostolic Churches for discipling… The rest is human guesswork based on Biblical writings in a language not understood by those telling you what it means… The Ekklesia is the foundation and the holding forth of the Truth…

Christ did not fail…

May God continue to bless your Walk…

geo

 

[mcq72]

My Brother, look to the Apostolic Churches for discipling

Quickly if I may, “apostolic is as apostolic does” ( a Gumpism, as in Forest Gump, " stupid is as stupid does". An institution does not guarantee “apostolicity”. Where apostolicity is, there is the ecclessia, at least( so is the Spirit, in Truth).

 

[George720]

I agree - Never scorn anyone at the water cooler! He or she could be a Saint or an Angel…

Where apostolicity is, there is the ecclessia, at least( so is the Spirit, in Truth).

The Ekklesia of Christ was commissioned by Him, was trained by Him, and was established by Him… And is so to this very day and hour…

I mean, if you are arguing that anyone who is a Paul IS the Ekklesia, I would have to agree, and then would simply ask you to show us this Paul… We can, you see, show you Saints, rare though they be, and you can encounter them yourself, if you are willing to need them… There are Protestants who KNOW God, no question… I have encountered them… They are recognizable on sight, usually… And they are pillars of their Churches…

And God will have Mercy on whom He WILL have Mercy… But the Church He established on this earth, even through Paul, was given through Paul through the Baptism of Christ at the hands of His Servant, Ananias, as was his healing from blindness and the washing away of the scales, as it were…

iow - Paul received his Apostolic Baptism according to the Great Commission of Christ PRIOR TO his Christian ministry… Biblically, it is foolishness to scorn this Baptism… No one scorned it, except for that Court Jester who mocked it openly in the Court as he enacted it, only to find himself converted in tears and beheaded the same day…

geo