Protestant vs Orthodox - who's closer?

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And those motley Anglicans differ, from each other, and from Lutherans, in ways. And from Apostolicae curae, for that matter, but that is more uniform. To the extent anything can be said to be uniform in Anglicanism.
 
GKMotley said:
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Montrose:
Old Catholic Church (Union of Utrecht only)
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I think the RCC position on the OC/UU is changed, over some recipient of orders issues. I could be wrong.
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Those recipients of the female variety, I think.
 
Indeed. Including the derivative ordinations that might flow from any such invalid recipients of the episcopacy.
 
GKMotley said:
Indeed. Including the derivative ordinations that might flow from any such invalid recipients of the episcopacy.
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Honestly, and I know you may not agree, but I have more certainty of the validity of LCMS presbyter ordinations than those in the ELCA that has female bishops.
 
I’m uncertain of the LCMS ordinations, an issue with some Anglican parallels. It’s not a point I am well read on, though. But certainly the female bishops, wherever found, are fruitless trees.
 
BlueKumul said:
thought Orthodoxy is closer. They also worship saints and Mary the Mother of God.
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Yes you are right orthodoxy can pray to other gods (be for) GOD. Lessor gods are available for Catholics. More like spirits gods that people pray to.
Protestants only relay on GOD . and are taught this way.
So really it’s just a matter on what you are taught.
So If you pray to an approved Saint or Mary and you get a result you will probably pray this way in the future. And it will seem normal and right. And you will defend it.
I was taught to pray to the Holy spirit as Jesus suggested. And I have 25 years of getting actual answers that I wrote down in my prayer journal.
I consider getting actual answers important in this religious spiritual activity.
It is possible that the Holy spirit jobs out the prayers .to Saint and mary.
 
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Welcome to CAF.
Nme said:
Yes you are right orthodoxy can pray to other gods be for GOD. Lessor gods are available for Catholics. More like spirits gods that people pray to.
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I am not a Catholic in communion with the Bishop of Rome, but I can tell you that this statement is absolutely opposed to what Catholics believe about intercessory prayer.
In no way do they consider the Saints in Heaven as gods, lesser gods, spirit gods.
They ask the Saints In Heaven to pray for us, just as we ask each other on earth to pray for us.
Nme said:
Protestants only relay on GOD . and are taught this way.
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Catholics rely on God in no less a way as a “Protestant “.
 
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JonNC said:
I am not a Catholic in communion with the Bishop of Rome, but I can tell you that this statement is absolutely opposed to what Catholics believe about intercessory prayer.
In no way do they consider the Saints in Heaven as gods, lesser gods, spirit gods.
They ask the Saints In Heaven to pray for us, just as we ask each other on earth to pray for us.
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👍

Same for the Orthodox.
 
PilgrimMichelangelo said:
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JonNC:
I am not a Catholic in communion with the Bishop of Rome, but I can tell you that this statement is absolutely opposed to what Catholics believe about intercessory prayer.
In no way do they consider the Saints in Heaven as gods, lesser gods, spirit gods.
They ask the Saints In Heaven to pray for us, just as we ask each other on earth to pray for us.
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👍

Same for the Orthodox.
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Thanks. I have significantly less knowledge of Orthodox Christians, but yes.
 
JonNC said:
They ask the Saints In Heaven to pray for us, just as we ask each other on earth to pray for us.
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There is a prayer in the Eastern Catholic Church and in the Eastern Orthodox Church which says:
“Most Holy Theotokos save us.”
And in Eastern Orthodox (I am not sure about EC) it continues:
"With many temptations surrounding me, Searching for salvation, I have hastened unto you; O Mother of the Logos/Word, and Ever-Virgin, From all distresses and dangers deliver me. Most Holy Theotokos save us. "
http://saintandrewgoc.org/home/2019/8/5/most-holy-theotokos-save-us
 
About Eastern Catholicism…

Eastern Catholic (EC) churches vary in their traditions and spirituality. Because they are in communion with the Pope and the Latin Church, some will have that Latin influence on them and will be latinized. And others will go the opposite way and try to stay true to their original traditions (so say for example if it’s Byzantine Rite Catholic- they would try to be as close to be like the Eastern Orthodox).

I’m from the Syro-Malabar Church (SMC), we employ the East Syriac Rite liturgy. We are unique in that our counterpart is the Assyrian Church of the East (Not Orthodox -not in either OO or EO communion). The Assyrian Church tried to be in communion with the Syriac Orthodox back in the late 90s- but it failed through. The Coptic Pope who is the supposed head of all OO churches had disagreements and the Assyrian Church didn’t agree w/ some things.

The SMC was under Latin jurisdiction from 1599 (Synod of Diamper) till 1887 when Pope Leo XIII separated us from Latins. Your average SMC laity is heavily latinized. So much so that back in India, your average laity would call themselves “RC” for “Roman Catholic”. Whether me, my parents or grandparents, we were taught prayers such as the angelus, rosary, litany of BVM, and the divine chaplet- which are all part of Latin spirituality.

For the pro-Latin faction within the SMC- it’s a matter about identity. Are we Catholic (Latin) or East Syriacs? pro-Latin eparchies do the Mass just like the Ordinary form (OF). externally it would look just like the OF. The problem with the Church of the East (CoE) was that it was considered heretical by both EO/OOs and Rome. It’s the odd one among the apostolic churches, and they are currently a dying church. So for the pro-Latin SMCs breaking communion with Rome or being like the CoE doesn’t make much sense.

On the other hand- the other EC church in India- the Malankara Syrian Catholic Church - has had it more easy to stay true to their traditions possibly because 1. they joined in communion w Rome in 1930, rather recent and 2. their counterpart churches are OO - Syriac Orthodox and Malankara Orthodox churches.
 
Forgive me but can you elaborate on what “presbyter ordination” is? I couldn’t find anything really on a Google search. On a different forum I sometimes visit someone was saying that in confessional Lutheran Churches the District President could be considered a bishop in a way but I don’t know.
 
Vanny said:
Forgive me but can you elaborate on what “presbyter ordination” is? I couldn’t find anything really on a Google search.
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Lutherans rely on a couple of historical facts.
  1. bishops and priests ( presbyters) were originally one order.
  2. in times when no Bishops were present to ordain, priests were permitted to ordain. The Cistercian abbots in the 1400’s.
    At the time of the Reformation, bishops would not ordain priests for Evangelical Catholic parishes, so they began to rely on presbyter ordination, ordination by priests.
While valid, I don’t believe it was ever intended to be a permanent solution. More liberal Lutherans have worked with liberal Anglicans - ( ELCA with TEC, and PorVoo in Europe).
The obvious partners for confessional Lutherans like LCMS would be continuing Anglicans, but both would require closer doctrinal agreement.
Vanny said:
On a different forum I sometimes visit someone was saying that in confessional Lutheran Churches the District President could be considered a bishop in a way but I don’t know.
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Well, they are in many respects, and more. The standard in the LCMS is that the district president and area pastors participate, laying on of hands, etc.
 
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JonNC said:
so they began to rely on presbyter ordination, ordination by priests.
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I guess that’s what happened in India.

After an event called the Coonan Cross Oath in 1653, the Syriac Christians divided up into 2 factions. one Catholic (their leader bishop was ordained by a Latin bishop), and the other faction went the Oriental Orthodox (OO) route. The OO side bishop was initially ordained by 12 priests. I guess that’s a form of presbyter ordination? a couple of years later, the OO side bishop was ordained by Syriac Orthodox bishop.
 
I am WELS- I think they may do that but I am not sure. I will have to check. I hope so.
 
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I apologize I did not realize that some protestant denominations reject the idea of moral relativism. Both Catholics and orthodox believe in Tradition and Scripture which is held fast, but Let me rephrase what I said on the Eucharist. Catholics and orthodox members hold the belief that the Eucharist is the sacrifice of Jesus’ Body and Blood to perpetuate the sacrifice of the cross. We also believe in transubstantiation that the bread and wine truly become the blood and body of our lord. It is not symbolic it is what we say Jesus said. Have a good day and it was interesting hearing from a Lutheran’s perspective!! Thank for replying!! Dominus Vobiscum
 
Catholic Don’t worship Mary and the saints we simply just honor them. Dominus vobiscum
 
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