Protestant vs Orthodox - who's closer?

[Montrose]

All in all, I think it’s mostly a case of selecting whichever translation is appropriate to the audience/interlocutor with minimal opportunity for misinterpretation.

When Catholics talk about worship it can only mean worship of God. The Church has made it very clear that we worship only God otherwise we are committing idolatry which is a sin against the First Commandment.
It is irrelevant that the word worship in English can mean other things.

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

It is irrelevant that the word worship in English can mean other things.

Clearly it’s not irrelevant when you have been contradicted by four other people on this thread.

 

[Vico]

Catholics worship God alone. We do NOT worship Mary or the saints. That would be a mortal sin against the First Commandment.

Not according to the Catholic Church, Catholic Encyclopedia

When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first …

Cabrol, F. (1912). Christian Worship. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15710a.htm
Nihil Obstat. October 1, 1912. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

The Church has made it very clear that we worship only God otherwise we are committing idolatry which is a sin against the First Commandment.

Where has the Church made this clear?

 

[Montrose]

Where has the Church made this clear?

For a start:

CCC 2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God.

Which is not “worship” we talk about when we venerate Saints. But yes, this part applies

The commandment to worship the Lord alone

I guess distinction in English is quite confusing.

In the end if we venerate Saints we worship God’s work with them. St. Ignatius of Loyola warns us to have utmost respect when talking to God or His Saints in prayer.

 

[JonNC]

"Unfortunately, many non-Catholics appear unable or unwilling to recognize these distinctions. They confidently assert that Catholics “worship” Mary and the saints, and, in so doing, commit idolatry. This is patently false, but the education in anti-Catholic prejudice is so strong that one must patiently explain that Catholics do not worship anyone but God—at least given the contemporary use of the term. The Church is very strict about the fact that latria , adoration—what contemporary English speakers call “worship”—is to be given only to God."

I understand the difference between dulia and latria, but I think one can forgive other non-Catholics for their confusion if they see Catholics not agreeing on the distinction, as we see here.

 

[Montrose]

I understand the difference between dulia and latria, but I think one can forgive other non-Catholics for their confusion if they see Catholics not agreeing on the distinction, as we see here.

It is non-Catholics who don’t understand but not because they don’t see Catholics not agreeing on this matter, apart from you. Catholics understand that we worship God alone and do not worship Mary and the other Saints.

 

[BlessedYoungCatholic]

Definitely Orthodoxy. I had a friend who was raised by an orthodox mother and catholic father, and she made these points: Both of the teachings on doctrine are relatively similar because Protestants teach the bible and values can be interpreted how ever some one pleases too. While for orthodoxy and catholicism it comes from our clergy. Also the only major thing orthodoxy and Catholicism differ on is Authority which can be called schismatic. (besides other minor doctrine issues)They also view the Eucharist as the body and blood of Christ while Protestants view it as symbolic which can be deemed as heretical. Oh in case any of you were wondering my friend identifies as Roman Catholic.

 

[JonNC]

Both of the teachings on doctrine are relatively similar because Protestants teach the bible and values can be interpreted how ever some one pleases too.

Please see the Lutheran confessions.

While for orthodoxy and catholicism it comes from our clergy.

Same here. Through scripture and the confessions, of course.

They also view the Eucharist as the body and blood of Christ while Protestants view it as symbolic which can be deemed as heretical.

Lutherans believe and have always believe that the Eucharist is the true body and blood of Christ.
Belief that it is merely symbolic is heterodox.

Regarding practice and doctrine, use of the term Protestant is folly.

 

[GKMotley]

Lutherans believe and have always believe that the Eucharist is the true body and blood of Christ.
Belief that it is merely symbolic is heterodox.

And those motley Anglicans…

 

[AlNg]

Catholics worship God alone. We do NOT worship Mary or the saints.

According to the prayers for August 20 (the after feast of the Dormition of the Theotokos) in the August Menaion published by Holy Transfiguration Monastery in Brookline, MA (and advertised for sale at a Melkite Catholic church) we read:
". . . Then the Apostles, seeing thee, O Virgin, were filled with grace, and with exceeding great reverence, they all then sacredly worshipped thee and cried out with firm faith: O rejoice, thou who hast brought forth Great Mercy for the world."

 

[Anesti33]

Lutherans believe and have always believe that the Eucharist is the true body and blood of Christ.
Belief that it is merely symbolic is heterodox.

What about the Eucharistic banquet? Do Lutherans believe it is a sacrifice? Per Apostolicæ curæ, from a Lutheran perspective, do Lutherans believe they have a valid Apostolic Succession?

(Isn’t it folly to use “Lutherans” in discussing doctrine and praxis, given the plethora of Lutheran confessions?)

 

[Anesti33]

“Worship” is a funny word. Nobody uses it to mean dulia anymore. But that is a valid archaism. So do not impute much drama to the use of “worship” in old literature about Mary or the saints.

 

[Montrose]

According to the prayers for August 20 (the after feast of the Dormition of the Theotokos) in the August Menaion published by Holy Transfiguration Monastery in Brookline, MA (and advertised for sale at a Melkite Catholic church) we read:
". . . Then the Apostles, seeing thee, O Virgin, were filled with grace, and with exceeding great reverence, they all then sacredly worshipped thee and cried out with firm faith: O rejoice, thou who hast brought forth Great Mercy for the world."

It always amazes me that non-Catholics think they know better than Catholics what the Church teaches so let me tell you again.

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TEACHES THAT WE WORSHIP GOD ALONE.

Worshipping anyone/anything else would be a sin against the First Commandment.

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

It’s so hard to give up a cherished belief in our own correctness, especially when we have been proven obstinate and contradicted by people from our own Latin Rite Church as well as those living the ancient Eastern Christian tradition…

I personally always ignore the salient points and keep hammering away with my own, hoping that in the end I will prevail simply by stating my position long enough and loud enough…seems to be good strategy.

 

[BlueKumul]

Same as me. My mother was Polish (lapsed Catholic, virtually atheist) and my father was Belarussian (Orthodox, not very serious but always called the Church of Moscow “Holy”)

 

[JonNC]

What about the Eucharistic banquet? Do Lutherans believe it is a sacrifice? Per Apostolicæ curæ , from a Lutheran perspective, do Lutherans believe they have a valid Apostolic Succession?

Not in the same way Catholics do. It is, a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving, on our Part.

Many Lutherans do indeed share apostolic succession through Anglican lines. Others practice presbyter ordination, which was practiced even in the Catholic Church in the 1400’s. Presbyter ordination is valid.

Isn’t it folly to use “Lutherans” in discussing doctrine and praxis, given the plethora of Lutheran confessions?)

There is only one set of Lutheran confessions. In terms of doctrine, all Lutherans confess the real presence as found in the Augsburg Confession and the Apology.

 

[Montrose]

Anesti33:

What about the Eucharistic banquet? Do Lutherans believe it is a sacrifice? Per Apostolicæ curæ , from a Lutheran perspective, do Lutherans believe they have a valid Apostolic Succession?

Not in the same way Catholics do. It is, a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving, on our Part.

Many Lutherans do indeed share apostolic succession through Anglican lines. Others practice presbyter ordination, which was practiced even in the Catholic Church in the 1400’s. Presbyter ordination is valid.

Isn’t it folly to use “Lutherans” in discussing doctrine and praxis, given the plethora of Lutheran confessions?)

There is only one set of Lutheran confessions. In terms of doctrine, all Lutherans confess the real presence as found in the Augsburg Confession and the Apology.

The Catholic Church recognizes the validity of the apostolic successions of the bishops, and therefore the rest of the clergy, of the Eastern Orthodox , Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East , Old Catholic Church (Union of Utrecht only), and Polish National Catholic Church.

 

[JonNC]

The Catholic Church recognizes the validity of the apostolic successions of the bishops, and therefore the rest of the clergy, of the Eastern Orthodox , Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East , Old Catholic Church (Union of Utrecht only), and Polish National Catholic Church.

Yes. I know, but it is appropriate for a Catholic to point it out and hold that position.
As you would expect, Lutherans will disagree with that limit.