Protestant vs Orthodox - who's closer?

[AlNg]

I can say “my grandma says XY”

Except possibly for some posters on this thread, I would be somewhat surprised to find out that anyone thinks that your grandma has the same authority as the website of the Orthodox Church in America. What are the credentials of your grandma?

If Catholics and Protestants are close, then why hasn’t unity been achieved?

I posted a link to a video of an Anglo-Catholic Mass.
Even though the Anglican Mass as posted in the link is quite respectful and really quite similar to a Roman Catholic rite, the Roman Catholic Church does not recognize the Anglican Sacraments. Anglo-Catholics believe that their Eucharist is valid. In fact, some of their clergy have been ordained with Old Catholic bishops participating.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Except possibly for some posters on this thread, I would be somewhat surprised to find out that anyone thinks that your grandma has the same authority as the website of the Orthodox Church in America. What are the credentials of your grandma?

Credentials don’t make arguments. You don’t know who wrote that on the site, hence you don’t know their credentials either. Appeal to authority we don’t both believe in is futile. Try to provide arguments instead of appealing to authority. I don’t think website of Orthodox Church in America by itself has any authority to decide whether or not Catholics are closer to them or Protestants. I do believe they can make great arguments for it, but unless there is a cause for what they say there’s no reason to address that.

I posted a link to a video of an Anglo-Catholic Mass.

So that’s why unity hasn’t been achieved. Because our Masses are similar?

What are the credentials of your grandma?

She can read entire alphabet which allows hear to read Unitatis Redintegratio and quote the passage which (in English) says the following:
" With the Orthodox Churches , this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist”
and also see that there is no such sentiment towards Protestant groups. Again, there is no argument in that document and it is not a shared authority (I believe in it being authoritative but you don’t) hence there is no point in using that.

 

[AlNg]

She can read entire alphabet

With the exception of some of the posters to this thread, most people would not equate the ability of your grandma to read the alphabet as authoritative as a statement from the website of the Orthodox Church of America stating that the Roman and Reformed Protestant churches are much closer to each other— historically, spiritually, theologically, culturally, psychologically —than the Orthodox Church is to either. After all, the Orthodox church of America has several parishes representing different ethnic groups - a partial list:

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Albanian Archdiocese​

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Bulgarian Diocese​

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Website: bdoca.org

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Archdiocese of Canada​

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Website: archdiocese.ca

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Diocese of Mexico​

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Website: ocamexico.org

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Diocese of the Midwest​

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Website: domoca.org

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Diocese of New England​

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Website: dneoca.org

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Diocese of New York and New Jersey​

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Website: nynjoca.org

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Romanian Episcopate​

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View parishes

Website: roea.org

Website: dosoca.org

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Archdiocese of Washington, D.C.​

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Website: wdcoca.org

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Diocese of the West​

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Website: dowoca.org

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Archdiocese of Western Pennsylvania​

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Website: ocadwpa.org.

 

[AlNg]

So that’s why unity hasn’t been achieved. Because our Masses are similar?

The unity has not been achieved with the Anglo-Catholic Church because even though the Anglican Mass as posted in the link is quite respectful and really quite similar to a Roman Catholic rite, the Roman Catholic Church does not recognize the Anglican Sacraments. Anglo-Catholics believe that their Eucharist is valid. In fact, some of their clergy have been ordained with Old Catholic bishops participating.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

even though the Anglican Mass as posted in the link is quite respectful and really quite similar to a Roman Catholic rite, the Roman Catholic Church does not recognize the Anglican Sacraments.

Yeah it isn’t issue of outward process… it’s an issue of central view of Eucharist, Priesthood etc as well as valid Orders.

Anglo-Catholics believe that their Eucharist is valid.

That makes sense. Otherwise they wouldn’t be Anglican or they would deny Real Presence.

In fact, some of their clergy have been ordained with Old Catholic bishops participating.

Which does not change the intention or view on Priesthood.

With the exception of some of the posters to this thread, most people would not equate the ability of your grandma to read the alphabet as authoritative as a statement from the website of the Orthodox Church of America

Technically both are not authoritative at all. Not even for Orthodox Christians in America. Unless some points are provided it’s an empty statement with no facts or reasons supporting it.

 

[GKMotley]

What usually occurred, following the 1932 Bonn Agreement, was joint Anglican/OC (or PNCC) episcopal consecrations. Which (theoretically) would infuse and join each Church’s episcopal lines. This is not as frequent as it once was.

Not Anglo/Catholics only. Anglicans would generally maintain their sacraments were valid. Though, of course (It’s Anglicans, after all), some Anglicans don’t believe that of some other Anglicans.

 

[AlNg]

it’s an empty statement with no facts or reasons supporting it.

Perhaps you are speaking about some of the other arguments presented in this thread.

Not Anglo/Catholics only. Anglicans would generally maintain their sacraments were valid.

Of course. And the Roman Catholic church does not. It seems to me that this would be one reason why there is no unity between the two Churches, Anglican and Catholic.

So that’s why unity hasn’t been achieved. Because our Masses are similar?

No. That is not the reason why unity between Anglican and Roman Catholic has not been achieved.

 

[Maximian]

Yes, well phrased

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Perhaps you are speaking about some of the other arguments presented in this thread.

Fact American Orthodox Church says we aren’t close doesn’t mean we aren’t. There needs to be something supporting that statement.

And the Roman Catholic church does not. It seems to me that this would be one reason why there is no unity between the two Churches, Anglican and Catholic.

Yes of course.

 

[GKMotley]

Of course. And the Roman Catholic church does not. It seems to me that this would be one reason why there is no unity between the two Churches, Anglican and Catholic.

Absolutely. That is one reason.

 

[AlNg]

Fact American Orthodox Church says we aren’t close doesn’t mean we aren’t.

In reading the OP, it appears that there are other people who believe that the Roman Catholic and Protestant churches are closer to each other than is the Orthodox church to either. This is not just the opinion of the website of the Orthodox Church of America.
As pointed out above, historically there was little difference between Serbia and Croatia except that one chose Orthodoxy and the other chose Roman Catholicism. And yet we see the terrible hostility and wars that occurred between them. How does one account for this except for the religious difference. And if it is the difference in religion that is at the root of these hostilities, then perhaps it is an indication that the two religions are not as close as one might like them to be.

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

After all, the Orthodox church of America has several dioceses and parishes throughout the world - a partial list:

I think you misunderstand the OCA. These diocese, with the exception of Mexico and Canada are ethnic jurisdictions in the United States of America. The OCA does not have parishes worldwide, and she is not recognized as autocephalous by the entire Orthodox Church, but only by a handful of autocephalous Churches.

Plus the statements on her website that you have gleaned are not authoritative documents passed by her Holy Synod, but are basic level answers for converts that have the intention of gaining new members and showing Orthodoxy to be the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, without getting into the nitty gritty details of theology. Think of it like advertising copy for Orthodoxy, not an authoritative tome on any one matter.

 

[AlNg]

These diocese, with the exception of Mexico and Canada are ethnic jurisdictions in the United States of America . The OCA does not have parishes worldwide,

True. You are right. This was my error. I meant to say parishes in the US representing some ethnic groups from different parts of the world. (But not all ethnic groups of course and not from every part of the world). I have since corrected the post to reflect that.

 

[JonNC]

Yes, well phrased

Except, of course, it is false. Why?
Because Protestantism isn’t theological anything. Protestantism is merely a Generalized grouping of different traditions/ communions/ denominations which, often enough, have Little or no historic connection to each other other than the fact they are Christians.

 

[Maximian]

Protestantism is merely a Generalized grouping of different traditions/ communions/ denominations which, often enough, have Little or no historic connection to each other other than the fact they are Christians.

Or, to put it another way, it is theological anarchy, founded on relativism…

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

Protestantism is merely a Generalized grouping of different traditions/ communions/ denominations which, often enough, have Little or no historic connection to each other other than the fact they are Christians.

Or, to put it another way, it is theological anarchy, founded on relativism…

Except, of course, that it is not. If “Protestants” were relativists, there would be no need for any of them. They’d simply be one communion, maybe even part of the Catholic Church, and simply be free to disagree with each other and the Pope.
The reason there are traditions/ denominations/ communions is they are not relativist.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

The reason there are traditions/ denominations/ communions is they are not relativist.

Perhaps that is true for limited amount of Protestant denominations (such as Lutherans)… however many others simply do not care. You need to accept core tenets (5 solas) and fact Scripture is only authority and you’re free to go. In Slovak Lutheran Churches, any Christian can commune at Lord’s Supper (Catholics, Orthodox, other Protestants…). There isn’t exact sense of unity or uniformity of faith in Protestantism at large (exceptions exist of course).

Even then there is some sense of relativism in Protestantism. For example belief that True Church is everywhere where “God’s Word is truly preached” is somewhat relative… or that there is no communion between all true members of Christ’s Church etc.

 

[Vico]

BlueKumul:

They also worship saints and Mary the Mother of God.

Catholics and Orthodox do NOT 'worship saints and Mary". We venerate them. Worship is reserved for God alone.

This distinction is important, since many Protestants wrongly accuse Catholics of Mary-worship and saint worship.

This is always a matter of language use. Worship includes adoration of God and veneration of saints.

Modern Catholic Dictionary

Acknowledgment of another’s worth, dignity, or superior position. In religion, worship is given either to God, and then it is adoration, or to the angels and saints, and it is called veneration. …

 

[Maximian]

Protestants” were relativists, there would be no need for any of them. They’d simply be one communion, maybe even part of the Catholic Church,

I don’t think you have understood the nature of relativism or why it is incompatible with Catholicism.

The whole point of relativism is that it enables one to take almost any position according to one’s perception of the circumstances or the meaning of a teaching. That is exactly why it leads Protestants to fragment, since each sect has its own idea of truth which is only relative to the actual truth.

 

[JonNC]

In Slovak Lutheran Churches, any Christian can commune at Lord’s Supper (Catholics, Orthodox, other Protestants…). There isn’t exact sense of unity or uniformity of faith in Protestantism at large (exceptions exist of course).

In (Roman) Catholic churches, Orthodox Christians may commune. Does that make the Catholic Church relativist?