Protestant vs Orthodox - who's closer?

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Of course it was a lesser event.

By the way I just checked and during Fourth Crusade there were apparently 2000 Greek civilians slain by Crusaders. There is no mention that former Crusaders would prioritize Clergy. It is quite plausible that since they did not get paid they wanted to “get” the payment out of city by their own hands. They didn’t quite sell anyone to slavery (not to Muslims for sure). That is hardly something that can be defended, but nevertheless reasons were gravely different than animosity towards certain religious group as with Massacre of Latins.

During Massacre of Latins, 4000 were sold to slavery to Muslims and concerning 60 000 Latins in the city, they were forced to flee or were killed. Even if 10% were killed it’s 3 times what happened during Fourth Crusade. 4000 sold to slavery during Massacre of Latins means twice as many as were slain during Fourth Crusade.

And lastly, " Latin clergymen received special attention, and Cardinal John, the papal legate, was beheaded and his head was dragged through the streets at the tail of a dog.". This was surely religiously motivated event.

Of course Orthodox today share no guilt in that. It would be useless to dwell on the past and let this be a stumbling block in unity in Truth… but…

lesser event?

 

[AlNg]

Photius was historically honored by Roman Church as a Saint

Correct. But was there a Vatican stamp honoring him as there was for Martin Luther? And was there a Vatican stamp honoring Vladimir Putin who supported the rebuilding and restoration of hundreds of Orthodox Churches in Russia? No, but in a Catholic Church there is a mural of Putin burning alive in hell.
If Protestantism is so far from Roman Catholicism, why does the Vatican have a stamp honoring the founder of Protestantism?

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

If Protestantism is so far from Roman Catholicism, why does the Vatican have a stamp honoring the founder of Protestantism?

Not because they are close for sure

But was there a Vatican stamp honoring him as there was for Martin Luther?

Vatican can do some weird stuff. I don’t know what to tell you. I mean in the end it’s just stamp. Early Church Fathers read Plato and they even recommended his books… they read Aristotle and recommended his books. Does that meany they were fond of ancient Greece or Pagan religions? Of course not.

Vatican is Vatican. Center of the Church perhaps, but not Church itself. Fact there isn’t stamp for Photius doesn’t mean anything. There are no stamps for many Saints I bet.

And was there a Vatican stamp honoring Vladimir Putin who supported the rebuilding and restoration of hundreds of Orthodox Churches in Russia? No

Wow. Must mean we hate him. In all seriousness a monk who started religious movement is one thing but another thing would be honoring a living President of some foreign country. Was there stamp honoring any American President? Would that be a problem too? And fact Putin built Orthodox Churches isn’t directly related to Catholicism…

but in a Catholic Church there is a mural of Putin burning alive in hell.

Which is obviously wrong, but culturally motivated. Animosity doesn’t impact difference.

 

[AlNg]

culturally motivated

Perhaps the Vatican stamp honoring Martin Luther is culturally motivated, No? Would it because the Protestant and Roman Catholic cultures are so close, as distinct from the Russian Orthodox culture or even the Greek Orthodox culture?

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Perhaps the Vatican stamp honoring Martin Luther is culturally motivated, No?

I doubt that… I mean Martin Luther has hardly to do with culture.

Would it because the Protestant and Roman Catholic cultures are so close, as distinct from the Russian Orthodox culture or even the Greek Orthodox culture?

Yes, that is a point that was already made. Roman Catholics are Western and Protestants are Western- that is their similarity. It gets overshadowed by similarities with Orthodoxy though.

And even then title thread says “Catholic” not “Roman Catholic”. Eastern Catholics count too. Also thread says “Orthodox” not “Eastern Orthodox”. We should also count Oriental Orthodoxy and Western Orthodox Rite. If you compare all these, you can see that Catholicism is much closer to Orthodoxy than Protestantism.

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

Perhaps the Vatican stamp honoring Martin Luther is culturally motivated, No? Would it because the Protestant and Roman Catholic cultures are so close, as distinct from the Russian Orthodox culture or even the Greek Orthodox culture?

Stamps are just that, stamps, why would the making or unmaking of a stamp lead anyone to see similarities and contrasts between Orthodox, Catholic and Protestants? Seems a little irrelevant to things like ecclesiology, the sacraments, dogma, doctrine, etc.

 

[AlNg]

Stamps are just that, stamps,

Actually no. To have a stamp issued in your name is a great honor, but to have a mural painted of a living person burning alive in hell is a disgraceful thing.

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

Actually no. To have a stamp issued in your name is a great honor, but to have a mural painted of a living person burning alive in hell is a disgraceful thing.

Forgive me, but as usual, you seem to be missing the point, in favor of being argumentative.

As my grandmother used to say, you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink.

You should listen to OrbisNonSufficit, he makes excellent points, especially about your confusing culture and religion.

The Ukrainian Catholics should not have put a mural of Putin burning in hell in their Church, but neither should the Orthodox print slanders against the Latins in the Lives of the Saints, nor should they have martyred St. Joasaphat. This is a fallen world and there is not one who is righteous, no, not one, for “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” These tiresome polemics do little good to heal the schism, foster charity, or grant clarity to real issues of theology between the Orthodox and Catholics.

But this is again, off topic.

To answer the OP, the Orthodox are closer to the Catholics, because we share the same dogmatic theology, Apostolic Succession, Mysteries etc.

 

[BlueKumul]

Is Cerularius revered as a founding figure of Orthodoxy the way Luther is revered in Protestantism?

 

[AlNg]

But this is again, off topic

I thought that the topic was which is closer, Protestant or Orthodox. Although it is claimed that Orthodox are closer, there are unpleasant events which indicate not so close as you might think.

And even then title thread says “Catholic” not “Roman Catholic”. Eastern Catholics count too.

Although the thread says Protestant, Anglicans count too as Protestants. And yet the Anglican Mass and Anglican teachings and traditions are quite close to the Catholic. The Anglican Mass is even somewhat similar to the Traditional Catholic Mass.

I don’t see concentration camps being set up for the Anglicans as they were for some of the E. Orthodox within the past 100 years.

 

[BlueKumul]

When it comes to culture, Russia (Orthodox) is rather closer to France (Catholic) than Guatemala, which is also Catholic. So culture must be kept separate from religion.

 

[GKMotley]

And yet the Anglican Mass and Anglican teachings and traditions are quite close to the Catholic. The Anglican Mass is even somewhat similar to the Traditional Catholic Mass.

St. James is an Anglo-Catholic parish, in a jurisdiction that is included in the Anglican Continuum. Don’t know about the 2nd video, Church of the Advent.

Remember that it is difficult to generalize about Anglicans, as in “…Anglican teachings and traditions are quite close to the Catholic”. Depends on which Anglicans. Some, yes. Others, not so much.

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

I thought that the topic was which is closer, Protestant or Orthodox. Although it is claimed that Orthodox are closer, there are unpleasant events which indicate not so close as you might think.

Methinks we are not using the same definition of “closer”, do you mean closer in what we believe and practice, or closer in relationship?

I don’t see concentration camps being set up for the Anglicans as they were for some of the E. Orthodox within the past 100 years.

Again, you are using the blood feud relationship between Croats and Serbs to try to denigrate the Catholic Faith (which does not condone that actions of the Croats) and paint a picture of poor, suffering victim Orthodoxy (which is simply not true).

By the way, I was an Anglican who converted to Orthodoxy. @GKMotley is right, these are Anglo-Catholic parishes and do not reflect the diversity of practice and belief found within the Anglican Communion/Continuum. In her high church ideals and praxis the Anglican Church is much closer to the Orthodox (in some ways) than any other version of Protestantism. However, at her core, the Anglicans remain always the Via Media, both Catholic and Reformed, and therefore in the end, the Catholic Church is always closest to the Orthodox Church in dogma, doctrine and praxis as opposed to Canterbury.

 

[AlNg]

the blood feud relationship between Croats and Serbs

Well, what is the difference between Croatian culture and Serbian culture. Some linguists will say that the languages are the same, as one is said to be a dialect of the other. Except of course, that one is written in the latin script and the other in the cyrillic script. It is true of course, that there are a few words that are different, but if you read international documents such as the rights of man, etc., one in Croatian and the other in Serbian, you will see they are extremely close when written in the latin script. but now you say that there is a blood feud between them? How did this “blood feud” you are speaking of come about? They were originally one tribe which migrated to the region, in about 700 AD, No? They were the same then, but what caused the “blood feud” split between them? Was it not that one chose the Greek Orthodox religion and the other chose the Roman Catholic religion? Was not that choice a major factor in the “blood feud” that you mentioned? If so, and considering the other unpleasant events between Catholics and Orthodox does it not indicate that perhaps Orthodox are not as close to Catholics as one might think at first.

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

Orthodox are not as close to Catholics as one might think at first.

Again you refuse to answer my question as to the definition of the word “closer”, and obstinately refuse to listen to anyone’s reasoning but your own.

I am using the word with regards to belief and practice, not in regards to our post-Schism relationship.

The relationship between Serbs and Croats is one poor example of Orthodox-Catholic relations, while here in America, for example we enjoy a cordial relationship. In the Middle East there is intercommunion between Catholics and Orthodox, especially in Syria, Lebanon, etc. One localized group fighting ought not to override nor determine the entire course of our Churches search for unity in charity and truth.

 

[AlNg]

One localized group fighting ought not to override nor determine the entire course of our Churches search for unity in charity and truth.

True. But there is a question as to why it is so. Serbs and Croats originally were the same tribe, no? What is the reason for the blood feud that you mentioned?
BTW, if the two churches (RC and EO) are so close, why after 900 years has unity in charity and truth not been achieved?

Again you refuse to answer my question as to the definition of the word “closer”

It has already been indicated by the OP. If you would kindly read the first post, you will see that that there is more than one way of looking at what is meant by it.

Here is an answer from an Orthodox site:

Question​

Would you say that the Orthodox Church is closer to the Roman Catholic Church than to the Protestant churches?

Answer​

It is hard to answer that question easily without giving the wrong impression. The Protestant churches, as you know, came out of the Roman Church when this body was already separated from the Eastern Orthodox Church. Thus, as one Russian theologian put it in the last century, it is probably true to say that the Roman and Reformed Protestant churches are much closer to each other—historically, spiritually, theologically, culturally, psychologically—than the Orthodox Church is to either.
https://www.oca.org/questions/roman...er-to-the-roman-catholic-church-than-to-the-p

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

BTW, if the two churches (RC and EO) are so close, why after 900 years has unity in charity and truth not been achieved?

We are close, but not that close.

If Catholics and Protestants are close, then why hasn’t unity been achieved?

Thus, as one Russian theologian put it in the last century, it is probably true to say that the Roman and Reformed Protestant churches are much closer to each other—historically, spiritually, theologically, culturally, psychologically—than the Orthodox Church is to either.

What’s the argument? The reason? Who is the Russian theologian?

Also saying “Churches are closer culturally” is again dangerously close to making Churches cultural and that borders Phyletism.

 

[AlNg]

saying “Churches are closer culturally” is again dangerously close to making Churches cultural and that borders Phyletism.

The Orthodox site has a statement that says that the Roman and Reformed Protestant churches are much closer to each other—historically, spiritually, theologically, culturally, psychologically—than the Orthodox Church is to either.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

It’s relevant to them. They claim to be in the Catholic Church.

I could claim to be 7 feet tall but it doesn’t mean I am.

It doesn’t mean you’re not, either. I don’t know you.
One of the things that stands in the way of unity is triumphalism on all sides.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

The Orthodox site has a statement that says that the Roman and Reformed Protestant churches are much closer to each other— historically, spiritually, theologically, culturally, psychologically —than the Orthodox Church is to either.

And without any arguments, that is appeal to authority. And “Orthodox site” isn’t competent authority even in Orthodox circles.
You need to find reasons why does website state that. I can say “my grandma says XY” and it doesn’t really contribute to conversation.