Protestants and Mary

[teachccd]

That’s an excellent point. We can certainly view Mary in a biblical fashion and hold her in a high regard without having to adhere to Catholic dogmas. I believe that’s what many mainline Protestants do.

And that’s why they’re Protestant. There is actually a pretty good book written by a Protestant pastor regarding this very point. It is entitled, “The Real Mary Why Evangelical Christians Can Embrace the Mother of Jesus” by Scot McKnight.

Here we see the author using great logic as to why we don’t disregard Mary just because it makes one sound too “Catholic”. Scot McKnight does take issue with a couple of the dogmas to some degree but he does not put blinders on and recognizes the importance of not undermining God’s purpose for Mary. Good book to dialogue with Catholics.

 

[Justy90]

And that’s why they’re Protestant. There is actually a pretty good book written by a Protestant pastor regarding this very point. It is entitled, “The Real Mary Why Evangelical Christians Can Embrace the Mother of Jesus” by Scot McKnight.

Here we see the author using great logic as to why we don’t disregard Mary just because it makes one sound too “Catholic”. Scot McKnight does take issue with a couple of the dogmas to some degree but he does not put blinders on and recognizes the importance of not undermining God’s purpose for Mary. Good book to dialogue with Catholics.

I never said that recognizing Mary and giving her what she is entitled to (honor) is too Catholic. This is a good example of how Catholics seeming put all Protestants together in the same box. Misunderstanding at best, ignorance to put it in a more rigid way. Plainly speaking, I don’t really believe that Cathlolics sincerely care about what some Protestants believe and practice vs. what other Protestants believe. I think that in a Catholic perspective, a Protestant is a Protestant whether they are a high church Anglo-Catholic (they are seemingly more Catholic in worship style that Roman Catholics themselves) or a Quaker.

 

[TristanCross]

Even Islam huh? Great, you totally convinced me. Heretics like Muslims adore Mary. We should too…

 

[boblet]

Mary called God her Savior. Only sinners need the Savior.​

Dokimas

There is two ways at looking at being saved. I do not question that God saved Mary from her sin. Its explained by some very well known Christians that if someone is pulled out from a pit they were saved by that person, but if another person was stopped before they could fall into the pit then they were saved by that person as well. This analogy is like Jesus saving Mary from sin. She was saved before she could commit a Sin so in actuality God is her savior. She was just saved in a different way then most people. There are plenty of things written by Saints who were around maybe a hundred to three hundred AD that wrote things talking about how Mary was sinless. This is not something the Catholic Church just came up with out of no where. This is very well researched through all the manuscripts that the Catholic Church has. Not only the Bibles teachings but of others who were around at the same time and just after. And for the record I am not just a bias Catholic. As of right now I am a Non-Denominational Protestant Christian looking to join the Catholic Church because after a long time of actually studying the Catholic faith it is impossible to say that they are not the true church. Hope you are on this forum to learn and not to try and convince people they are wrong. God Bless.

-Bob

 

[teachccd]

I never said that recognizing Mary and giving her what she is entitled to (honor) is too Catholic. This is a good example of how Catholics seeming put all Protestants together in the same box. Misunderstanding at best, ignorance to put it in a more rigid way. Plainly speaking, I don’t really believe that Cathlolics sincerely care about what some Protestants believe and practice vs. what other Protestants believe. I think that in a Catholic perspective, a Protestant is a Protestant whether they are a high church Anglo-Catholic (they are seemingly more Catholic in worship style that Roman Catholics themselves) or a Quaker.

Sure…I can only go by the comments here and most Protestants do not see Mary as Catholics do. Sorry, they don’t…

 

[Justy90]

Sure…I can only go by the comments here and most Protestants do not see Mary as Catholics do. Sorry, they don’t…

You just see what you want to and hear what you want to. That’s no way to dialogue with your separated brothers and sisters.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Even Islam huh? Great, you totally convinced me. Heretics like Muslims adore Mary. We should too…

What do* you *believe about Mary? Do you have a different view?

 

[lil_flower_luv]

I suggest the Catholics here read “Refuting the Attack on Mary: A Defense of Marian Doctrine” by Father Mateo.

Quick Description: “Relying on sacred Scripture and the writings of the early Church Fathers, Fr. Mateo offers this concise and compelling defense of the Catholic Church’s teachings on the Blessed Virgin Mary. Addressing the arguments used by critics of the Catholic faith, he explains and justifies the Catholic account of Mary’s perpetual virginity, her Immaculate Conception, her Assumption into heaven, and her numerous titles including Mother of God and Queen of Heaven. Carefully argued and easy to understand, this guide to Catholic Marian beliefs will aide general readers and scholars alike.”

amazon.com/Refuting-Attack-Mary-Doctrine-Doctrine/dp/1888992085

 

[leighfus]

To my fellow Cristians who don’t have the same teahings as the RCC as regards the Blessed Mother. We all know that Christ is the Savior, The “Lord of Lords” and “King of Kings”, but have you ever thought of Mary in the context that Her body is part of Christ’s physical body? And that is one of the reasons why she holds such a high status in the Church? Evan Islam pays her due homage!

Jesus loved Mary, but did not elevate her above His other followers. In Matthew 12:46-49 we read, "While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, ‘Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.’ He replied to him, ‘Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?’ Pointing to his disciples, he said, ‘Here are my mother and my brothers.’ " Jesus didn’t say that to disrespect Mary. He said that to show she was not to be given preferential treatment above His other followers. Again, in Luke 11:27-18 we read, “As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, ‘Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.’ He replied, ‘Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.’” How did Jesus respond when a woman on the crowd heaped praise on Mary? He corrected the woman. “Blessed RATHER are those…” He didn’t do this to disrespect Mary. He did this because He doesn’t want us venerating any human person. Veneration is to be reserved for God alone. When people pray to any person besides God (whether it be to Mary or another saint), they are committing a blasphemy that no doubt pains Christ and grieves the Holy Spirit.

 

[leighfus]

Jesus loved Mary, but did not elevate her above His other followers. In Matthew 12:46-49 we read, "While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, ‘Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.’ He replied to him, ‘Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?’ Pointing to his disciples, he said, ‘Here are my mother and my brothers.’ " Jesus didn’t say that to disrespect Mary. He said that to show she was not to be given preferential treatment above His other followers. Again, in Luke 11:27-18 we read, “As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, ‘Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.’ He replied, ‘Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.’” How did Jesus respond when a woman on the crowd heaped praise on Mary? He corrected the woman. “Blessed RATHER are those…” He didn’t do this to disrespect Mary. He did this because He doesn’t want us venerating any human person. Veneration is to be reserved for God alone. When people pray to any person besides God (whether it be to Mary or another saint), they are committing a blasphemy that no doubt pains Christ and grieves the Holy Spirit.

 

[gcnuss]

And that’s why they’re Protestant. There is actually a pretty good book written by a Protestant pastor regarding this very point. It is entitled, “The Real Mary Why Evangelical Christians Can Embrace the Mother of Jesus” by Scot McKnight.

You might also be interested in A Protestant Pastor Looks at Mary by Charles Dickson. Dickson is (or was – I don’t know if he is still living) a Lutheran pastor who seeks to encourage better understanding between Protestant and Catholics about Mary. From the book’s back cover:

Now Lutheran pastor Dr. Charles Dickson take a fresh look at the important questions surrounding the meaning of Mary in every Christian’s life. By struggling to bridge the gap between the Protestant and Catholic views, Dr. Dickson brings all Christians to a greater understanding of this unique woman who was chosen to be the Mother of the Savior.

 

[Radical]

In your honest opinion then, why was the ark of the covenant lined in gold and why was Uzzah killed for touching it (cf. 2 Samuel 6)? The wood was acacia wood which was of the finest wood. You cannot tell me that the specifics given for the ark’s construction were for no avail. The ark was the mark of the Lord’s intimate presence among His people. It was kept in the Holy of Holies. So, again, I ask you why were not the tablets just set in an old shoebox?

to display God’s level of righteousness and holiness. You will likely recall that Moses could not look directly at God at that time…but no one had a problem with looking directly at Jesus

In second Samuel chapter 6 we find that David lept before the ark and in Luke chapter 1 we find John the Baptist who also lept in front of Mary.

David lept and danced before the ark as it was moved into Jerusalem vs John moving in a womb…not exactly a grand parallel

David asks in 2 samuel 6:9, “How is it that the ark of the Lord can come to me?” In Luke 1:43, Mary exclaims, " And why is it granted that the Mother of my Lord should come to me?"

David wondered how he would get the ark to Jerusalem if people were killed in moving it vs. Elizabeth wondered why she was given this honour…not exactly a grand parallel

In 2 Samuel 6:11 we find that the ark remained in th house of Obededom the Gittite for three months and in Luke 1:56 we see Mary staying with Elizabeth for three months.

actually it is 3 months vs about 3 months…apart from that, was Elizabeth a Gittite?..not exactly a grand parallel

Questionable parallel?? I think not.

understood…as indciated, I find your similarities less than convincing and many contrasts also exist. For example, the ark would have been placed in the Holy of Holies, but Mary wouldn’t have been allowed near that place…she would have been restricted to the Women’s Court.

You are right that a great emphasis was put on Mary as the Mother of God and her perpetual virginity.

Perhaps you misunderstood me. The earliest ECFs rarely mention Mary at all and when they do they only mention Mary’s virginity at conception and say nothing about her perpetual virginity…

The ECF’s can be quoted numerous times on those two dogmas. Would you say that God required her to be sinful?

No, it is just that all humans are sinful…it is part of our nature.

Is it not possible for God to preserve Mary from original sin through the merits of Christ’s death thus her still requiriung a savior, as someone mentioned above?

sure, it is possible…just not likely

God required a special ark for His written word. Could He not require a special lady for His living Word? In your honest opinion, could this at least be feasible?

sure, it is feasible, but I note that the authors of the NT went to the bother of connecting OT verses and prophesies with events in Jesus’s life, but none presents Mary as the new ark. The author of Hebrews discusses the tabernacle and the ark and explains that it is an illustration, but never explains that the ark was an illustration of Mary. God did select a special woman (but, given the early silence wrt the matter, I don’t see that he selected a sinless woman.) feasible, but highly unlikely.

 

[happilycatholic]

Mary called God her Savior. Only sinners need the Savior.

 

[JonNC]

Sure…I can only go by the comments here and most Protestants do not see Mary as Catholics do. Sorry, they don’t…

teachccd,
I can absolutely agree here. It is also true that Orthodox see Mary somewhat differently than Catholics do. My point would be that even though we view her somewhat differently, that fact shouldn’t undermind an understanding that we all view her with great respect and admiration for how she responded to God’s plan for salvation, and see her as perhaps the best role model for obedience and devotion to our Lord and Savior.

Jon

 

[elvisman]

I don’t think the writers would use the same word differently. James and John were brothers. Andrew and Simon (Peter) were brothers. Thus, I’m saying, by using the same Greek word, Jesus had actual brothers (half brothers).​

Hope that clears things up.

You’re dead wrong.
In the Septuagint, the normal Greek words for “brother(s) “adelphos” and “adelphoi” were used much more liberally than the normal meaning. It was applied to cousins, uncles, nephews and kinsmen alike. The Aramaic word, “ach”, encompasses the meanings for brother of same parents, half-brother (same father), relative, kinship, same tribe, and even a fellow countryman. The attempt by some Protestants to apply one word for all of these meanings in 21st century English is ludicrous. Just as languages differ – so do the meanings of different words.**

It can be illustrated that Jesus himself and the Apostles studied and quoted from the Septuagint. The fact is that many passages in the New Testament are directly correlated to these 7 books from the Septuagint. Some examples include: Matt. 27:42/Wis. 2:18-20, Luke 24:4/2 Macc. 3:26, John 10:22/1Macc 4:36 & 52-59, Rom. 11:33/Judith 8:14, 1 Cor. 10:20/4:7 and 1 Pet. 1:6-7/Wis. 3:5-6.

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Furthermore, there was no term for the word “cousin” in the Aramaic language that our Lord spoke. When the Old Testament was translated into Greek in the centuries before the birth of Christ (the Septuagint), the words “adelphos” and “adelphoi” were used in places where “ach” was. This is why we have many examples in the Septuagint of the following:

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In Gen. 14:14, Lot is called Abraham’s "brother", even though he was the son of Haran, Abraham’s brother (Gen. 11:26–28). In Gen. 29:15, Jacob is referred to as the “brother” of his uncle Laban.

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Brothers Kish and Eleazar were the sons of Mahli. Kish had sons of his own, but Eleazar’s daughters married their "brethren”, the sons of Kish - who were actually their cousins (1 Chr. 23:21–22).

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There is another problem for Protestants who try to prove that Mary had other children and list the names given in the bible. They give the names of these adelphoi, James, Joseph (Joses), Jude (Judas), and list the passages that mention these adelphoi, (Matt. 12:46; Matt. 13:55; Mark 3:31–34; Mark 6:3; Luke 8:19–20; John 2:12, 7:3, 5, 10; Acts 1:14; 1 Cor. 9:5).

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According to the 2nd century document, The Protoevangelium of James, these brothers and sisters of the Lord were Joseph’s children from another marriage. However, there is stronger Scriptural evidence that would debunk the myth of these “siblings”.
The “other Mary” at the foot of the cross is described as being the mother of James and Joses and Salome. She is also described as being Mary’s (mother of Jesus) “sister” (adelphe) (John 19:25).

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The 2nd century historian Hegesippus explains that Clopas was the brother of Joseph, the foster-father of Jesus. James would thus be Joseph’s nephew and a cousin of Jesus, who was Joseph’s putative son.

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What do the Scriptures have to say about the women standing at the cross and their children?

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Matt. 27:56** says,* “…among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph*, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee”.**
Mark 15:40** states, "There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome").**

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Finally, John 19:25 tells us, "But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene".

Hope that clears things up.

 

[elvisman]

Jesus loved Mary, but did not elevate her above His other followers. In Matthew 12:46-49 we read, "While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, ‘Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.’ He replied to him, ‘Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?’ Pointing to his disciples, he said, ‘Here are my mother and my brothers.’ " Jesus didn’t say that to disrespect Mary. He said that to show she was not to be given preferential treatment above His other followers. Again, in Luke 11:27-18 we read, “As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, ‘Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.’ He replied, ‘Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.’” How did Jesus respond when a woman on the crowd heaped praise on Mary? He corrected the woman. “Blessed RATHER are those…” He didn’t do this to disrespect Mary. He did this because He doesn’t want us venerating any human person. Veneration is to be reserved for God alone. When people pray to any person besides God (whether it be to Mary or another saint), they are committing a blasphemy that no doubt pains Christ and grieves the Holy Spirit.

I love when Protestants point to this passage and try to use it against Mary. They seem to think that Jesus had some sort of animosity towards her or that we shouldn’t show her any special respect or honor. You couldn’t be more wrong.
When Jesus answered the woman who said, “Blessed is the womb that carried you and the breasts at which you nursed.” with, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!" - This was a commendation NOT an insult against his mother. It because Mary’s example is the fact that she heard the word of God and did ****it. **
Just like Adam and Eve, who were born without the stain of original sin by reason of the merits of Jesus Christ, so was Mary. Jesus selected from all women in history to be His mother.

 

[elvisman]

You don’t have a high enough opinion of Jesus’ ability to deal with sin, IMO. Jesus touched sinners all the time. The Jewish religious leaders tried to point out Jesus was a sinner because He touched sinners. What a small problem for Jesus to be inside Mary and Mary being a sinner.​

I don’t think Mary is the 2nd Eve. There is no Biblical reason to believe so. I answered someone else on this point. Maybe you can refer to this for my reasoning.​

Not only did Jesus call Mary woman, but in John 2 He said, “Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me?” IMO, not exactly what you’d think Jesus would say to Mary if your understanding of Mary is correct.

WRONG.
Interesting how Protestants will point to the fact that Jesus calls Mary, Woman – not Mother. In John’s Gospel, Jesus never refers to his mother as “mother” (John 2:4, 19:26). Whenever he addresses his mother, he calls her “Woman”. The anti-Catholic will point to this as proof that there was nothing special about Mary or that Jesus didn’t hold her in very high regard. This couldn’t be further from the truth. This correlates directly to the Woman in Gen. 3:15 and in Rev. 12.

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Jesus defeats death on Calvary (Skull place) and fulfills the prophecy in Gen. 3:15 about the offspring of the woman. Mary is present at the foot of the cross while this is happening, and what does Jesus call her in John 19:26? He calls her “WOMAN”, because the prophecy about the head of the serpent being crushed in Genesis is taking place on Calvary.**

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Mary is the WOMAN. Mary is the New Eve.
In about 155 AD, Justin Martyr (in his Dialogue with Trypho) made the Mary-Eve parallel by saying:**
*“Christ became a man by a virgin to overcome the disobedience caused by the serpent …For Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent, and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the powers of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her would be called the Son of God. And she replied: ‘Be it done unto me according to thy word.” *

Just like Eve was called "the mother of all the living” (Gen 3:20), Mary becomes “the mother of all living in Christ”.

 

[teachccd]

You might also be interested in A Protestant Pastor Looks at Mary by Charles Dickson. Dickson is (or was – I don’t know if he is still living) a Lutheran pastor who seeks to encourage better understanding between Protestant and Catholics about Mary. From the book’s back cover:

Thank you. I will definitely seek out that book…teachccd

 

[teachccd]

teachccd,
I can absolutely agree here. It is also true that Orthodox see Mary somewhat differently than Catholics do. My point would be that even though we view her somewhat differently, that fact shouldn’t undermind an understanding that we all view her with great respect and admiration for how she responded to God’s plan for salvation, and see her as perhaps the best role model for obedience and devotion to our Lord and Savior.

Jon

Thank you for your view. I do, however, encounter many fundamentalist Christians who do not hold our views on Mary. Some hold no regard for her and even try to bring her down with disrepect. There is such an array of opinions in the non- Catholic sector of Christianity. It really is sad how divided we’ve become. Really sad…teachccd

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

To my fellow Cristians who don’t have the same teahings as the RCC as regards the Blessed Mother. We all know that Christ is the Savior, The “Lord of Lords” and “King of Kings”, but have you ever thought of Mary in the context that Her body is part of Christ’s physical body? And that is one of the reasons why she holds such a high status in the Church? Evan Islam pays her due homage!

However, Jesus did not base relationships on flesh and blood - He based them on obedience to His Father in Heaven (by which words He was not referring to St. Joseph). He leaves family ties behind, by universalising them. Maybe that’s why their is no Resurrection appearance to the mother of Jesus - because she is important not as His mother, but as a disciple with the Apostles (Acts 1.14).​

“Without faith it is impossible to please God…” (Hebrews 11) - Faith, not flesh and blood, is what is needed to please God. Having relationships of flesh and blood is not how Christ’s followers do the Father’s Will.