Protestants and Wine: A Question

[Kitty_Chan]

Glad to hear it.

good, so now you understand when I say I dont care if its grape juice, wine, apple, orange or whatever.

Its still the blood to me and no one will covince me of anything else. Its odd but it took alot to understand. we actually had to go backwards on what Baptists thought so I could compare and figure it out.

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

good, so now you understand when I say I dont care if its grape juice, wine, apple, orange or whatever.

Not really (understand why you believe this)

Its still the blood to me and no one will covince me of anything else. Its odd but it took alot to understand. we actually had to go backwards on what Baptists thought so I could compare and figure it out.

Well I have some used bath water, is that the blood of Christ to you to?

---

You say this in your profile…
Religion:
Believer in Christ. see Nicene Creed for details

Well I did that…Here is the Nicene Creed…
*We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through Him all things were made. For us men and our salvation He came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit, He was born of the Virgin Mary , and became man. For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day He rose again in fulfillment of the scriptures: He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son, He is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen. *

so what “part” do you believe in??

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Not really (understand why you believe this)

Well I have some used bath water, is that the blood of Christ to you to?

It seems silly I know but think about it from my perspective. I was in a Nazarene then a Baptist church. It took me forever to finally take communion to begin with as I took it with utmost seriousness. And when I did I only saw His Blood and Body.

For whatever reason it never came up that it was symbolic, I did have a exceptional Pastor at the Baptist. Maybe he focused on the important parts rather than arguing that its symbolic, I really dont know.

When I came to these boards I couldnt figure what the fuss was about? Didnt everyone think that it is the Blood? It was quite confusing to me. (Now, I understand once again thanks to Pax for hanging inthere with patience).

The bath water is over the top, Im not being disrespectful.

I didnt even know in that Baptist church it was supposed to be this symbolic deal, its always been real. Jesus said its Me, so I took Him at His word.

So for a second consider this, why would I think of it as symbolic when I know its not?

So keeping in mind the setting I was in, of course the discussions of what actually is put on the Lords table is irrevelant to me, as I only see what its supposed to be. No matter where it is.

as a side note I did go to my friends Catholic church and did partake of the Body and Blood there. we discussed it in the pew while everyone was lineing up. she said it was ok.

(what can I say she was mixed up, I know now it was wrong, but Lily here said it was ok because our hearts were right but now I know not to do it again.)

Does that help?

ps on the creed, all of it. when one doesnt have a home, one has to start somewhere.

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

I

The bath water is over the top, Im not being disrespectful.

SORRY

ps on the creed, all of it. when one doesnt have a home, one has to start somewhere.

just to clarify …you do believe this part of the Creed…*We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. *??

 

[Kitty_Chan]

just to clarify …you do believe this part of the Creed…*We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. *??

Before you jump to that, what about the rest of what I said?

also at least its still on topic.

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

It seems silly I know but think about it from my perspective. I was in a Nazarene then a Baptist church. It took me forever to finally take communion to begin with as I took it with utmost seriousness. And when I did I only saw His Blood and Body.

For whatever reason it never came up that it was symbolic, I did have a exceptional Pastor at the Baptist. Maybe he focused on the important parts rather than arguing that its symbolic, I really dont know.
But baptists dont believe it is really the body and blood of Christ. to them it is symbolic

When I came to these boards I couldnt figure what the fuss was about? Didnt everyone think that it is the Blood? It was quite confusing to me. (Now, I understand once again thanks to Pax for hanging inthere with patience).
**Confused here. Are you saying Catholics said it was symbolic and not really the body and blood? **

The bath water is over the top, Im not being disrespectful.
Sorry
I didnt even know in that Baptist church it was supposed to be this symbolic deal, its always been real. Jesus said its Me, so I took Him at His word.

So for a second consider this, why would I think of it as symbolic when I know its not?
**I dont know why would you? why do baptists think its symbolic when its not? **

So keeping in mind the setting I was in, of course the discussions of what actually is put on the Lords table is irrevelant to me, as I only see what its supposed to be. No matter where it is.
**Gotcha’ **

as a side note I did go to my friends Catholic church and did partake of the Body and Blood there. we discussed it in the pew while everyone was lineing up. she said it was ok.
eek: )
(what can I say she was mixed up, I know now it was wrong, but Lily here said it was ok because our hearts were right but now I know not to do it again.) but if you join the Church you can go everyday if you want

Does that help? Yes

ps on the creed, all of it. when one doesnt have a home, one has to start somewhere.

Before you jump to that, what about the rest of what I said?

also at least its still on topic.

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

You say this in your profile…
Religion:
Believer in Christ. see Nicene Creed for details

Well I did that…Here is the Nicene Creed…
*We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through Him all things were made. For us men and our salvation He came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit, He was born of the Virgin Mary , and became man. For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day He rose again in fulfillment of the scriptures: He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son, He is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen. *

so what “part” do you believe in??

ps on the creed, all of it. when one doesnt have a home, one has to start somewhere.

just to clarify …you do believe this part of the Creed…*We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. *??

I am a bit confused as on another thread you profess to be a Protestant.

Im protestant

So what is it?? Protestant or Catholic??

 

[Kitty_Chan]

But baptists dont believe it is really the body and blood of Christ. to them it is symbolic

I havent a clue as to the reasons, its pretty plain to me. Even when I went to my sons Baptist church several weeks ago, they had communion. I noticed his Pastor said it was symbolic, I can remember but maybe mine yrs ago didnt state that, in fact Im pretty sure he just said the cermony.

When I came to these boards I couldnt figure what the fuss was about? Didnt everyone think that it is the Blood? It was quite confusing to me.

Confused here. Are you saying Catholics said it was symbolic and not really the body and blood?

no Catholics said it was the blood, and some said it was only symbolic.

dont worry about the bath water, its ok.

So keeping in mind the setting I was in, of course the discussions of what actually is put on the Lords table is irrevelant to me, as I only see what its supposed to be. No matter where it is.

Gotcha’

great, thanks, I didnt want to leave you confused.

but if you join the Church you can go everyday if you want

For now, I will go occasionally with my friend, her hubby doesnt go, so I go to support her. (also why I stay here, she is mixed up on things sometimes, so I can actually explain stuff to her)

 

[Kitty_Chan]

I am a bit confused as on another thread you profess to be a Protestant.

So what is it?? Protestant or Catholic??

good question, I guess cause Im not a member of the catholic church that makes me protestant.

I tend to think of myself sitting on the park bench outside both sides. so from the “outside” I tend to see both sides of it all.
Theres things I agree and disagree with in each side.

A quote out of a U2 song actually explains it well

Home its hard to know what its like when youve never had one

but in the journey I make alot of friends along the way.

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

good question, I guess cause Im not a member of the catholic church that makes me protestant.

I tend to think of myself sitting on the park bench outside both sides. so from the “outside” I tend to see both sides of it all.
Theres things I agree and disagree with in each side.

A quote out of a U2 song actually explains it well

Home its hard to know what its like when youve never had one

but in the journey I make alot of friends along the way.

Well if your Protestant may I kindly suggest you dont tell your brethren that you believe the Nicene Creed They dont like it when their members state…We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.…or if you really believe what the Creed says may I suggest joining the Church…I am sure that your local Parish has RCIA.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Well if your Protestant may I kindly suggest you dont tell your brethren that you believe the Nicene Creed They dont like it when their members state…We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.…or if you really believe what the Creed says may I suggest joining the Church…I am sure that your local Parish has RCIA.

Im not sure if they dont like it… Third Day a christian southern rock band wrote a song basically singing it.

I think the main difference is when it says catholic not Third Day but in church they say

catholic (universal)

meaning all churches that believe in the rest of the creed are actually under one church.

Now, you could be upset about that or just smile and if Im enough of a quick study realise who wrote that creed?

Something I learned from the SDA’s, see to them any church who worships on Sunday is Catholic. (I know I hear the arguements)

But I find it interesting sitting here on the bench that there is this thread running through all the churches. That while they claim they are different and appear to be. When the rubber hits the road they fall in line with that creed.

Exactly how Gods gonna pull the string and drag us all together is His plan.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

It’s been brought up so many times before that I figured I’d ask for a little guidance in this area: Some of my Baptist friends from my old church keep defending the never drink position, and when I mention that Jesus drank wine (as well as virtually every biblical character preceeding him), some insist, “Well, we really don’t know whether the ‘wine’ was fermented or not…” and that’s usually the end of it.

Any historical info to help me out here? As well as passages? (How much wine did Our Lord actually produce at the wedding at Cana, by the way? A deacon at my parish made it sound like it was an enormous amount…)

Thanks!

It likely could have been a rather enormous amount… It could have been an enormous feast! It stands to reason that Our Lord would perform his first public miracle among a larger party.

Psalm 104:15 comes to mind: “And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man’s heart.” I dunno about you, but when its real wine, not grape juice that “gladdens my heart”.

At the Wedding Feast of Cana there is some “drink for thought” as well. Why would it be odd that the “best is served last” to the attendants?

In strictly profane comparison to my colllege drinking days, we drank good beer first, and then swill when our hearts were appreciably “gladdened”!

Also discussion of drunkeness itself in the Bible implies that wine is normally fermented - how does a man get drunk to be in the sin of drunkeness but for the alcohol?

From there a anti-wine party may insist that yes there was real wine, but this was not that. I guess I would like to see from scripture, rabbinical or historic sources that there was a history, tradition or practice of consuming fresh-squeezed grape juice before the fermentation made the alcohol appreciable. I really don’t think it can be provided.

My dad used to make wine. Anyone ever tasted the freshly squeezed juice? Yech.

 

[peary]

It’s been brought up so many times before that I figured I’d ask for a little guidance in this area: Some of my Baptist friends from my old church keep defending the never drink position, and when I mention that Jesus drank wine (as well as virtually every biblical character preceeding him), some insist, “Well, we really don’t know whether the ‘wine’ was fermented or not…” and that’s usually the end of it.

Any historical info to help me out here? As well as passages? (How much wine did Our Lord actually produce at the wedding at Cana, by the way? A deacon at my parish made it sound like it was an enormous amount…)

Thanks!

**This should end their babble: **

winepros.org/wine101/history.htm

 

[Randb]

My Baptist friend said there wasn’t a word for grape juice when translating was being done , so they used the word WINE!!! So that makes complete sense of their belief as to it not being WINE that Jesus drank & changed into WINE at Cana! See they always have reasoning for their beliefs.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

My Baptist friend said there wasn’t a word for grape juice when translating was being done , so they used the word WINE!!! So that makes complete sense of their belief as to it not being WINE that Jesus drank & changed into WINE at Cana! See they always have reasoning for their beliefs.

Um…well…err… well there you have it then!

Who can argue with that logic!?!

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

My Baptist friend said there wasn’t a word for grape juice when translating was being done , so they used the word WINE!!! So that makes complete sense of their belief as to it not being WINE that Jesus drank & changed into WINE at Cana! See they always have reasoning for their beliefs.

 

[ralphinal]

There wasn’t a word for bathroom, cafeteria, or television either. i wonder what else we can’t trust in our translations.

 

[peary]

Originally Posted by **Kitty Chan **
Heres a thought why cant it be either? Welch did make his juice top quality to replace wine. It bothered them to drink alcohol.

If we are not to be stumbling blocks to one another, why is it insisted that someone drink alcohol when they have said they will not? The alcohol bothers them plain and simple.

The wine and the juice are both the blood whether one thinks of them symbolicaly or not. They are both still the blood and thats what the whole point is.

**The Scriptures tell us - and even substantiated at Mass - that wine is the “fruit of the cup, the work of human hands.” Wine is NOT grape juice, which is changed through an artificial procedure that does not go through natural fermentation which produces alcohol which is a natural by-product of fermentation. Jesus did not take “grape juice”. He took wine. It is important to stay within the context of Scripture on this. When Jesus performed some sort of ritual, it was for all eternity.

And I can never understand how members of those denominations that use grape juice have no problem drinking beer and other alcoholic beverages outside of church. How hypocritical. **

 

[Joe_Kelley]

My Baptist friend said there wasn’t a word for grape juice when translating was being done , so they used the word WINE!!! So that makes complete sense of their belief as to it not being WINE that Jesus drank & changed into WINE at Cana! See they always have reasoning for their beliefs.

Probably because there wasn’t any grape juice at that time. Unless the grape juice is pasteurized it immediately starts fermenting and becomes new wine.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Probably because there wasn’t any grape juice at that time. Unless the grape juice is pasteurized it immediately starts fermenting and becomes new wine.

Excellent point. As I said earlier, anyone who has tasted the juice of freshy pressed would be at a loss to explain why people would desire to drink that… rather than wait a bit and have decent wine!