Protestants as "brethren"

[ScottH]

Every denomination has its idiotic beliefs IMHO. As a Presbyterian- I can tell you that we have quite a few.

1. Salvation at the moment of infant baptism (gimme a break)
2. Our setup gives the session (elected members) tons more power than the pastor himself. (or in some Presby churches- “herself”) But- what if the session is comprised of lukewarm believers?
3. “Calvinistic Hardness”- which sometimes predicates a lack of compassion towards others. However- we don’t find John Calvin’s name in the Bible.
4. Our ruling councils and Synods have now become a mockery of the faith, ceding power and lending credence to anti-Israel movements, pro “universalism” movements, the “More Light” Presbyterians (aka the “Gay Is Okay Presbyterians”) (check out www.mlp.org and understand what I’m talking about.) Its to the point where good, Bible believing pastors have to fight to get ordained. My own was chastized during ordination for referring to God as “Him”. (Two female evaluators would prefer that my pastor use a non-sex specific pronoun for God).

(Ah…radical feminism.)

Many of us Protestants are hurting, and disgusted with the turn that many of our denominations have taken. My own church is what we call a “Confessing Presbyterian Church.” Its a movement that started in Germany when a Presby pastor refused to swear allegiance to Hitler, and he was killed- along with much of his session. Now, Presbyterians who refuse to bow to the ruling synod and general assemblies for their new stances are called “confessing church members” in that same vein. My church refuses to send its yearly $22 per head dues to the General Assembly, and instead sends it to a non-denominational ministry that does outreach to homosexuals (i.e. ministers to them with the intent to teach them that it is sin, and they need to repent.)

Many churches in my denomination aren’t as stalwart. One in particular in Pittsburgh had a guest minister 2 years ago on Easter Sunday- a member of the “Jesus Seminar”- a man who believes Christ body was dragged away by dogs- which is why he appeared to dissappear.

This same huge Presby Church in Pittsburgh had a guest trans-sexual minister for July 4th sunday services last year.

So I can’t in good conscience lob any stones at RCs. But I also am unwilling to jump ship from my own small church because I am among a special bunch- ones that also work very closely and have a very good relationship with the RC church in our town. We are currently working with them for Baccallariat festivities for our town’s graduating seniors- and we all treat one another as parts of the body- just in different buildings. Its rare.

But I would urge all of you to pray for us all. Your compassion would probably win more converts than your criticism. I know many of you are kind- just like many protestants are kind… yet its the few uncompassionate ones on both sides that make the most noise. I personally have a very special ministry to young people and people who refuse Christ because science is their God- and they think science proves that there is NOT a God. This ministry isn’t limited to denominational walls. I just happen to go to a Presby church on Sundays, and have a great friend who is the pastor who also helps with the creation ministry I’m in. He’s also close friends with the local RC priest, and we all enjoy each other’s company.

I recently bought a viewing license for my church- so we could show “The Passion Of The Christ”. Tons of members from the RC Church were invited and came. We had dinner together afterwards, and prayed together. When they have an open event at their church, we go there too.

As for my own outreach ministry, I’ve had Roman Catholic kids who had problems with their faith due to “Discovery Channel” issues- and we helped them and pointed them right back to their own RC church, but with renewed faith and vigor. We aren’t out to win “converts” to anything but Christ.

In that- I hope you all would consider me brethren, and fighting for the same cause you are.

 

[Ignatius]

ScottH:

As for my own outreach ministry, I’ve had Roman Catholic kids who had problems with their faith due to “Discovery Channel” issues- and we helped them and pointed them right back to their own RC church, but with renewed faith and vigor.

We aren’t out to win “converts” to anything but Christ.

Your last sentence says it all. You truely are a “brother in Christ”.

God Bless.

 

[Angainor]

I voted for “they are sowers of discord”.

There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven: … a time to plant and a time to uproot, … a time to tear down and a time to build. Ecclesiastes 3:1-3

 

[ScottH]

Angainor:

I voted for “they are sowers of discord”.

There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven: … a time to plant and a time to uproot, … a time to tear down and a time to build. Ecclesiastes 3:1-3

And to you I would say come to my home and have dinner with me and my wife. Bring your family. We would pray together. There will be no discord.

 

[Michael_Howard]

Angainor:

I voted for “they are sowers of discord”.

There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven: … a time to plant and a time to uproot, … a time to tear down and a time to build. Ecclesiastes 3:1-3

I believe the Reformers themselves were the real sowers of discord. The 21st century Protestant church has little resemblence of ‘Luthers kingdom’ which is far to Catholic for most Protestants tastes today. I think the majority of Protestant denominations are quite charitable in many instances. I think their idealogies are quite dangerous though, leaving souls stripped of sacrificial grace and the true power over sin, and this I have contention with.

I am much more hesitant to say that Protestants who have a valid baptism will be just fine if they reject the Catholic church. Without the true sacrament of confession, they better make darn good use of their Valid Baptism and live a life free of mortal sin which is nearly impossible in my opinion. I am not that easy on those who reject sacramental grace. With that said, my first concern is with the dessenters in our house. While we are so busy battling with our seperate bretheran the wolves are devouring the flock! At the current rate God may reduce His church to a handful of stones soon!

Catholics need to wake up to the fact that the ship has holes blown in it from all sides and is filling up with water at an alarming rate. All is not well here. Yet God in His mercy has used faithful Protestant converts who love the word of God and Christ to repair some of the damage done by the dissenters in the Church. God in His mercy has used the Reformation to help us heal by bringing in some very gifted scholars and theologians into the church. For this I am grateful. We as Catholics need to repent of our arrogance, humble ourselves and see what we can to to help repair the seamless garment that has been rent in so many directions.

 

[Angainor]

me:

I voted for “they are sowers of discord”.

ScottH:

And to you I would say come to my home and have dinner with me and my wife. Bring your family. We would pray together. There will be no discord.

That is very kind, but I fear I was misunderstood. Rereading my post, I can see that I failed to express my point thoroughly enough.

I am Protestant. By saying I voted for “Protestants are sowers of discord”, I was trying to wear that accusation as a badge of honor. That is why I quoted Ecclesiastes.
There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven: … a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them …
It is not that I am happy that discord exists, but I would also not be proud of accepting harmony for the sake of harmony and at the expense of truth.

I suppose it is a little like Luther’s quote that Catholics are fond of using. Something about “sinning boldly”. I think Catholics take that quote out of context.

 

[But_for_Grace]

Part of me wants to say no, they are not our brothers, they are children of the devil, sowers of lies and discord seeking to destroy the Church of Christ. The division in the Church grieves me to the core of my soul. BUT…

I must bow to the decisions of our Holy Mother Church! If I do not humble myself to this, if I do not, as St. Paul exhorts us, obey those who are placed by God as rulers over us (paraphrasing) then I am dividing myself from the body of Christ. Did not Jesus say that we would be known to be His disciples by our love for one another? Of course he did. Every person is a child of God made for a purpose. Every one of, Catholic and Protestant, is subject to sin (and lets not bring up the subject of Mary in this thread, it would only muddy the waters even more). Every one of us is justified by the death of Christ on the Cross, baptized for the forgiveness of sins. In this we are all brothers and sisters.

We all need to repent of our sins. Is the Catholic Church the origional church founded on the teachings of the apostles? Yes, it is centuries older than any other church. Has it kept the faith? Yes, I find the same doctrine in the modern catholic church as I do in the Ante-Niecene Church Fathers. Does that mean that I lord over our brethern? No, because if we treat them with hatred, than we are not acting as we should for hatred is opposed to love.

1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not abideth in death.
1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer. And you know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in himself.
1Jo 3:16 In this we have known the charity of God, because he hath laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. (Douay-Rheims Bible)

Hate = Murder = lack of eternal life

Hatred causes us to disregard others as people, which in turn causes us to deny their value. In doing this we implictly deny the dignity given to all men as being created by God. Hence hatred leaves us in a state of sin. Paul tells us not to let the sun go down on our anger, but anger is not hatred. If we are to love our enemy how could we think that it would be acceptable to hate someone God created?

Wis 15:1 But thou, our God, art gracious and true, patient, and ordering all things in mercy.
Wis 15:2 For if we sin, we are thine, knowing thy greatness: and if we sin not, we know that we are counted with thee.
Wis 15:3 For to know thee is perfect justice: and to know thy justice, and thy power, is the root of immortality. (Douay- Rhiems Bible)

 

[Deus_Vult]

James_2:24:

Do you consider Protestants as “brethren” in anyway… even “separated brethren?”

James 2:24,
I am curious why you quote Martin Luther on your profile and your handle is then James 2:24 (You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.) The reason I find it interesting is…Luther, on his own ‘authority’, removed 7 books from their rightful place in the Old Testament, and placed them in an appendix. They had references in them which did not agree with ‘his’ teaching, mainly 2 Maccabees and Purgatory. He also wanted to remove the last four books of the New Testament, Hebrews, JAMES, Jude, and Revelation, and he succeeded in removing them from their rightful place and put them into an additional unnumbered appendix.
Here is a quote from a Lutheran scholar:
Heinrich Bornkamm’s LUTHER AND THE OLD TESTAMENT, Trans. by Eric W. and Ruth C. Gritsch. Edited by Victor I Gruhn. Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1969. page 189:
“He did not make his distaste evident through his arrangement for printing, although he characterized the last four writings of the New Testament (Hebrews, James, Jude, Revelation) as inferior by not numbering them in the Table of Contents, just as the Old Testament Apocrypha, and by separating them from the main writings of the New Testament by a clear space.(394)”
The footnote, number 394, reads as follows: “394 From the New Testament of September, 1522, to the last edition of the Bible in 1546…”
Luther included the four books, Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation, in his NT, but only in an unpaginated appendix, clearly separated from the rest of the NT. We know that this continued from the first printing of Luther’s NT until he died in 1546, and then his Bible was reconfigured by his followers.
James 2:24 must have proved an embarassment to him in his teaching of ‘Sola Fides’, as it says, “You see that by works a man is justified, and NOT by faith ONLY.” Also, James 2:26 says, “Faith without works is dead.”
Luther added the word ‘alone’ to his translation of Romans 3:28 because that verse also contradicted his teaching of ‘Sola Fides’, “For we reckon that a man is justified by faith alone independently of the works of the law.”

Of course Lutherans would like to consider Roman Catholics as part of their brethren…they have to or they would have a hard time trying to justify their false beliefs. Even Martin Luther himself said:“We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of GOD, that we received it from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of it at all.” But we do not have to consider them our brethren for the spliting of Gods Church…I am reminded in scripture that:
***Unity in the Body of Christ ***

*1As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. *

 

[twiztedseraph]

I dunno I voted for the discord one. As much as I love the protestants, they’re praise and worship in particular. I cannot properly call them “seperated” brethren without feeling as if I’m using a euphamism. We call them Christian and respect them as true children of God, despite the fact they rejected and or perverted divine truth. Yet somehow they are able to make themselves look the friendlier side of Christianity, and still ingrain it (sometimes subconsciously) into their children, their churches, that Catholicism is evil. I mean look at them they splinter, they rupture, they come up with the most perverse doctrines, look at wordfaith! Still I love protestants, I cannot even look at their doctrine. Their music is pretty good, though gregorian chant still kicks it!