Protestants: Could you please do us all a favor??

[Peter_J]

Peter J, come now, you don’t really think that one bad church is going to make me assume that all Catholics are mean now do you?
I will never judge a church by one persons actions! If our Lord did that then surely we would all be dammed!
Thank you for your help but don’t worry, I am not put off by a little trouble!

:bounce:God BLESS you:bounce:

 

[Memaw]

SHW you state " We do know that there is no such thing as double predestination! God absolutely did not create some men with the express intent to destroy them against their own wills. A God who is Love cannot do this because it would be against His nature. God does not act contrary to His own nature." Then you state " We do not **know the mind of God. "

Now which is it. For someone who says we cannot know the mind of God how do you reach the other conclusion. Just curious Thanks**

Sad to say but some may not care to know the heart and mind of God or have Faith in HIM but they do have faith in their own mind. True Faith is a GIFT from GOD, but we do have to be open to it. He will not force HIMSELF on anyone. HE knocks on the door but we have to open it. God Bless, Memaw

 

[SHW]

SHW you state " We do know that there is no such thing as double predestination! God absolutely did not create some men with the express intent to destroy them against their own wills. A God who is Love cannot do this because it would be against His nature. God does not act contrary to His own nature." Then you state " We do not **know the mind of God. "

Now which is it. For someone who says we cannot know the mind of God how do you reach the other conclusion. Just curious Thanks**

We can reach this conclusion because we can and do know “some” things about the “nature” of God through reading Scripture because He reveals a good deal about Himself in Scripture and some information about Him was also passed down through the years in the Oral Traditions of the Church since not everything known about Jesus and His Father was written down in Scripture. [John 21:25, 2 Thessalonians 2:15]

And the things that have been revealed about Him show us that double predestination is impossible. Double predestination means that God created man with the intention of saving some and damning others without any regard to these persons’ own actions using their own free wills. This is impossible because we know that God is Love, God is Just, and God is Merciful. God is Holy, God is Perfect, God is Good, and He is Truth. (There are more.)

God is merciful.

Ephesians 2:4 “But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,”

God is perfect. He can do no evil. To do evil is against His nature.

Matthew 5:48 “Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.”

God is Holy. He can do no evil.

Rev. 4:8 "The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying: “ Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come!”

We know that God did not create “man” in order to destroy him. Everything that God created was very good. God is Good. This is His nature. He can do no evil. Therefore, He did not and cannot create good things for the “purpose” of destroying them. This is impossible because it goes against His Divine Nature which is “all good.”

God is good.

Luke 18:19 “So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.”

Jesus was asking him if he really understood that He was actually God because God is all Good. Goodness is His nature. In other words, Jesus was making the point that yes, He is good and He is God, but He wanted to know if that person understood that He was God.

Genesis 1:31 “Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”

God is Just.

Revelation 15:3 "They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying: “ Great and marvelous are Your works, Lord God Almighty! Just and true are Your ways, O King of the saints!

God can do no evil.

3 John 1:11 “Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. He who does good is of God, but he who does evil has not seen God.”

God is truth.

John 14:6 “Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

God’s Divine Nature: Good, Perfect, Holy, Merciful, Just, Love, Truth.

To condemn some persons arbitrarily without regard to the persons’ own actions (double predestination) goes against the very nature of God, because to do this would not be good, would not be perfect, would not be holy, would not be merciful, would not be just, and would not be love.
**
Therefore, “double predestination” is incompatible with God’s Divine Nature.**

We do not know and cannot know exactly how God includes man’s free will in His own preeminent Plan of Salvation in order to bring His Plan to fruition, but we do know that His Plan is perfect because He is perfect.

Isaiah 55:8-9 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.”

I think it was C.S. Lewis who said something like: “We know that God wants His best for us, but we want to know how painful His best for us is going to be.”

Suffering helps to perfect our characters. God sent His own Son to be an example for us so that we could learn how to become perfect through suffering so that we can become worthy to enjoy eternity in heaven with Him. [James 1:12, Revelation 3:4]

Hebrews 2:10 “For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.”

1 Peter 4:13 “but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ’s sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy.”

Adam was not a good role model because he sinned and as a result of his sin, he alienated us from God.

God loved us so much in spite of Adam’s sin that He sent His only begotten Son to restore our relationship with God by atoning for Adam’s sin and to personally show us what to do (obey God’s commandments and works righteousness) so that we can inherit eternal life. There is no greater love than this! [Acts 10:34-35, 1 John 5:3]

God is love.

1 John 4:8 “He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.”

 

[distracted]

SHW you state " We do know that there is no such thing as double predestination! God absolutely did not create some men with the express intent to destroy them against their own wills. A God who is Love cannot do this because it would be against His nature. God does not act contrary to His own nature." Then you state " We do not **know the mind of God. "

Now which is it. For someone who says we cannot know the mind of God how do you reach the other conclusion. Just curious Thanks**

there are some things we can know about God… from the Bible, the Church… even “intuition”…

for example the Bible says that God is love…

true, most humans don’t have a clue what real love is… Granted… (very granted )

but still, I doubt anyone would argue that a loving God would NOT create someone and condemn him to Hell regardless of what he did… created him just to go to Hell… :hypno:uch:

I think we can all universally agree that this doesn’t sound like any God we would care to belive in…

 

[humble_in_doubt]

We don’t know exactly how God “works” His will/plan, but we do know that God’s plans do not force a person to be saved against his own free will and we do know that God does not prevent a person from being saved against his own free will. How God actually manages this is up to speculation and I find nothing objectionable about Augustine’s theory. He was a brilliant man, much smarter than I will ever be.

We do know that there is no such thing as double predestination! God absolutely did not create some men with the express intent to destroy them against their own wills. A God who is Love cannot do this because it would be against His nature. God does not act contrary to His own nature.

Frankly most Christians, including most protestants would agree with you. I personally, however, believe the bible does reveal double predestination. I do also think it’s absurd for Christians to toss away tradition and ignore it’s value. However, even then you wind up with an Augustinian outlook; and he basically taught double predestination (with some nuance that distinguished him from reformers like Calvin – but much less nuance than most believe, particularly Catholics).

Augustine harmonizes the tradition (and the theology of men like Justin Martyr) with double predestination fairly well, departing with Martyr to some degree (but only because Augustine was a theologian rather than just an apologist, so Augustine had a much deeper understanding of predestination and grace). However, he did retain the early idea of prescience, he just gave us a deeper understanding of its application.

Think about this way. God wants all men to be saved and come to knowledge of the truth (you believe this is true because the bible says so). However, when you read this phrase in concert with the rest of scripture you might read it something like this. God desires all men to be saved, and hates the destruction of anyone; unfortunately the destruction of some is necessary for the salvation of many.

In other words in the bible God’s view is always towards the end game. We might say his will and purpose is building his kingdom. Some argue on behalf of free will; as would I (if I were still a bible believing theist that is). However, I think the only way to reconcile scripture in a consistent way is if we view free will as god’s ultimate goal rather than our present reality.

Take Romans 10:14, where Paul tells us one must have exposure to the gospel message if they are to believe (and cognizant faith is always presented as a non-negotiable requirement for salvation). We of course know that not all are exposed to the gospel … so where’s their prevenient grace?

That god would like all to be saved doesn’t need to mean he would like us all to make the right choice. It could just mean god is benevolent and he always hates the destruction of anyone or anything. God’s purpose in creation is salvation not destruction (any other intent would violate his holy character). However, we’re still left with the reality that without the destruction of some no one could be saved at all; and god could not not form us into what the bible says he ultimately wants his elect to become (something like minor gods).

I’m not sure if I’m explaining this well (it is a complex topic – hard enough to wrap our minds around let alone explain in a cognizant manner). My conclusion is god’s reasoning probably goes something like this. He wanted to build this kingdom full of creature who transcend physical death, have total free will, but who also freely love him. This is important because the bible explains that god sustains the universe and all its life, therefore to rebel against god (according to scripture) is to really sabotage ourselves (since he sustains us). Apparently there was no better or kinder way to do this (and since the Christian must believe that god is all knowing and all powerful, you must believe his plan is the most perfect plan possible & his ultimate goals are the best and most altruistic goals possible). In other words destroying some is not an act of evil or wickedness, since the only other choice would have been to create us less than free or not create us at all.

 

[Memaw]

Frankly most Christians, including most protestants would agree with you. I personally, however, believe the bible does reveal double predestination. I do also think it’s absurd for Christians to toss away tradition and ignore it’s value. However, even then you wind up with an Augustinian outlook; and he basically taught double predestination (with some nuance that distinguished him from reformers like Calvin – but much less nuance than most believe, particularly Catholics).

Augustine harmonizes the tradition (and the theology of men like Justin Martyr) with double predestination fairly well, departing with Martyr to some degree (but only because Augustine was a theologian rather than just an apologist, so Augustine had a much deeper understanding of predestination and grace). However, he did retain the early idea of prescience, he just gave us a deeper understanding of its application.

Think about this way. God wants all men to be saved and come to knowledge of the truth (you believe this is true because the bible says so). However, when you read this phrase in concert with the rest of scripture you might read it something like this. God desires all men to be saved, and hates the destruction of anyone; unfortunately the destruction of some is necessary for the salvation of many.

In other words in the bible God’s view is always towards the end game. We might say his will and purpose is building his kingdom. Some argue on behalf of free will; as would I (if I were still a bible believing theist that is). However, I think the only way to reconcile scripture in a consistent way is if we view free will as god’s ultimate goal rather than our present reality.

Take Romans 10:14, where Paul tells us one must have exposure to the gospel message if they are to believe (and cognizant faith is always presented as a non-negotiable requirement for salvation). We of course know that not all are exposed to the gospel … so where’s their prevenient grace?

That god would like all to be saved doesn’t need to mean he would like us all to make the right choice. It could just mean god is benevolent and he always hates the destruction of anyone or anything. God’s purpose in creation is salvation not destruction (any other intent would violate his holy character). However, we’re still left with the reality that without the destruction of some no one could be saved at all; and god could not not form us into what the bible says he ultimately wants his elect to become (something like minor gods).

I’m not sure if I’m explaining this well (it is a complex topic – hard enough to wrap our minds around let alone explain in a cognizant manner). My conclusion is god’s reasoning probably goes something like this. He wanted to build this kingdom full of creature who transcend physical death, have total free will, but who also freely love him. This is important because the bible explains that god sustains the universe and all its life, therefore to rebel against god (according to scripture) is to really sabotage ourselves (since he sustains us). Apparently there was no better or kinder way to do this (and since the Christian must believe that god is all knowing and all powerful, you must believe his plan is the most perfect plan possible & his ultimate goals are the best and most altruistic goals possible). In other words destroying some is not an act of evil or wickedness, since the only other choice would have been to create us less than free or not create us at all.

Your right, you did not explain that very well. Aren’t you glad you grew up big enough to tell GOD how HE thinks and does. Now that you have it all figured out, what in the world are you gonna do with it??? Pardon me if I don’t put my faith in you. God Bless, Memaw

 

[SteveGC]

humble in doubt,

could you point me to this preponderance of scripture pointing to the evidence of double predestination and the necessary destruction of some for the salvation of many?

Thanks.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

humble in doubt,

could you point me to this preponderance of scripture pointing to the evidence of double predestination and the necessary destruction of some for the salvation of many?

Thanks.

I cited them (ad nausea) above.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Your right, you did not explain that very well. Aren’t you glad you grew up big enough to tell GOD how HE thinks and does. Now that you have it all figured out, what in the world are you gonna do with it??? Pardon me if I don’t put my faith in you. God Bless, Memaw

ooooo … can always count on you for profound insight into the mysteries of life and our universe

 

[SteveGC]

I cited them (ad nausea) above.

Ah. Found it now. Must’ve scrolled too fast. Thanks.

 

[Memaw]

ooooo … can always count on you for profound insight into the mysteries of life and our universe

At least you admit that there are some ‘mysteries of life’ that even you can’t explain!! God Bless, Memaw

 

[humble_in_doubt]

At least you admit that there are some ‘mysteries of life’ that even you can’t explain!! God Bless, Memaw

nope … like you said b4, I got it all figured out

 

[moondweller]

nope … like you said b4, I got it all figured out

Yep, you and Darwin.

 

[Worthy5]

Yep, you and Darwin.

Moondweller, just wanted to check again as I am still doing my research. Here is my questions to you. All language is subject to multiple interpretations and contexts. And then there is that nasty translation problem with the Bible. Are we reading the Bible in the original Greek and Hebrew? If so, why not? If not, how can we even make the attempt to discern revelation at all.

How can divine revelation be known from indeterminate written language? Further, The Bible cannot justify itself-how do we know the Bible is what it says it is-divine revelation? Where does it state in the Bible that you or I have any authority to interpret the Bible at all or to say the Bible is what is proclaims to be? What is the justifications for your asserted claims? Just curious Thanks

Sorry if this is repeated. I know you responded somewhat but I was curious if you had more information. Thanks again.

 

[Spiritoftruth]

Ah, it’s good to see evangelazation is alive and well. Yes the love of God marches on.

 

[Memaw]

nope … like you said b4, I got it all figured out

And what are you going to do with you after you die??? Just curious, God Bless, Memaw

 

[moondweller]

Moondweller, just wanted to check again as I am still doing my research. Here is my questions to you. All language is subject to multiple interpretations and contexts. And then there is that nasty translation problem with the Bible. Are we reading the Bible in the original Greek and Hebrew? If so, why not? If not, how can we even make the attempt to discern revelation at all.

How can divine revelation be known from indeterminate written language? Further, The Bible cannot justify itself-how do we know the Bible is what it says it is-divine revelation? Where does it state in the Bible that you or I have any authority to interpret the Bible at all or to say the Bible is what is proclaims to be? What is the justifications for your asserted claims? Just curious Thanks

Sorry if this is repeated. I know you responded somewhat but I was curious if you had more information. Thanks again.

Sorry, Worthy, all human language is so obscure and lost in translation that I can’t possibly understand a word you’re saying. :hypno:

 

[1beleevr]

spiritoftruth:Yes, my Christian brother; those of us in externally focused churches, are taking the Love of God to the streets of Amerrica! Ther is a hunger for God, which has been magnified by the recent economic crisis! So let’s put on the full armor of God and advancethe Kingdom:thumbsup:

 

[SHW]

Frankly most Christians, including most protestants would agree with you. I personally, however, believe the bible does reveal double predestination. I do also think it’s absurd for Christians to toss away tradition and ignore it’s value. However, even then you wind up with an Augustinian outlook; and he basically taught double predestination (with some nuance that distinguished him from reformers like Calvin – but much less nuance than most believe, particularly Catholics).

You are free to believe what you wish to believe.

Augustine harmonizes the tradition (and the theology of men like Justin Martyr) with double predestination fairly well, departing with Martyr to some degree (but only because Augustine was a theologian rather than just an apologist, so Augustine had a much deeper understanding of predestination and grace). However, he did retain the early idea of prescience, he just gave us a deeper understanding of its application.

I do not know if what you think Augustine taught about predestination is what he actually did teach, but I will not be researching his teaching in order to find out since it does not matter in order to make my own point.

Augustine was free to express his opinion just as his Catholic contemporaries were free to express their opinions about predestination since the Church had not made any formal pronouncements about it.

However, the Church has since ruled that double predestination cannot be believed by Catholics.

Fr. Ray Ryland writing in Catholic Answers magazine explains the Catholic teaching about Predestination:
"The key to the doctrine of predestination is given in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

“To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore He establishes His eternal plan of ‘predestination,’ He includes in it each person’s free response to His grace” (No. 600).

In other words, what God foresees and wills takes into account how we use our freedom in responding to Him or in rejecting Him. God’s foreknowledge in no way detracts from our freedom.

Sacred Scripture assures us that “God our Savior … wills all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth” (1 Tm 2:3-4). Moreover, Christ Jesus “gave himself as ransom for all” (1 Tm 2:5).

The Church teaches that God “predestines” us both to good works and to eternal happiness in heaven. That is His plan for our lives. We are free to reject Him, but even our rejection itself is somehow a part of God’s overall plan.

God always holds out the grace of conversion to sinners, even as He foresees who will reject that grace and be forever lost. The Church also teaches that apart from special revelation no one can know with absolute certainty whether he or she belongs among the elect in heaven.

You should ponder Romans 8:28-30. It is Scripture’s fullest statement of the working of predestination in the lives of the elect. “Elect” refers to those persons who will respond to God’s infinite grace. And remember: The freedom of the elect will always be unimpaired."

Think about this way. God wants all men to be saved and come to knowledge of the truth (you believe this is true because the bible says so). However, when you read this phrase in concert with the rest of scripture you might read it something like this. God desires all men to be saved, and hates the destruction of anyone; unfortunately the destruction of some is necessary for the salvation of many."

It is not necessary to destroy “some” in order to save “others/many.” This is incorrect thinking. God is almighty/omnipotent. The only things that God cannot do are things that are against His Divine Nature. In other words, God cannot do evil because He is all good.

We will have to agree to disagree on this. I do believe the Church’s teaching on predestination.

After all, Jesus founded His own one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church and He promised to lead it into all truth by the power of the Holy Spirit and He promised to be with His Church always until He returns. The Holy Spirit prevents His Church from teaching error in matters of faith and morals and Scripture interpretation in its official pronouncements. He promised that the gates of Hades would never prevail against His Church. If His Church ever teaches error, then the gates of Hades will have prevailed. Jesus cannot lie so this means that His Church cannot ever teach error.

 

[Worthy5]

Sorry, Worthy, all human language is so obscure and lost in translation that I can’t possibly understand a word you’re saying. :hypno:

I am sorry you feel that way. I was hoping you could provide some insight. Thanks again