Protestants, did Jesus Christ gave us a Church with authority?

[cazayoux]

The unbelievable denial is rampant.
Of course idulgences were sold of course the pope not only knew but approved it.
It is because of this and many other abuses the the Catholic Church has lost much of its authority.
God takes authority away from wicked men. Many of the popes and leaders of the Catholic Church were wicked in the middle ages.

No denial here.
Yes, alms-giving is considered a good and wholesome thing to do.

Tobit 12:8-9
[8] Prayer is good when accompanied by fasting, almsgiving, and righteousness. A little with righteousness is better than much with wrongdoing. It is better to give alms than to treasure up gold.
[9] For almsgiving delivers from death, and it will purge away every sin. Those who perform deeds of charity and of righteousness will have fulness of life;

This is exactly what indulgences are about, increasing in holiness through prayers, fasting, almsgiving and righteousness.

However, the church recognized the abuses by clergy (gaining based on reasons other than repentance for the sinner) and members (using almsgiving in place of repentance), and rightfully removed alsmgiving from the normative practice for indulgences.

Do you see almsgiving as a bad thing?
Do you think the church did the right thing in light of the abuses?

michel

 

[Tomster]

The Holy Spirit!

That sounds very Protestant to me. Could you elaborate?

 

[guanophore]

Was it right and of Christ the way indulgences were sold to the people during this people? Did not the way this was done have the highest approval in the church i.e. the pope?

The Pope is not the “highest approval” in the Church. That belongs only to Jesus, who is the Head of the Church. If the Pope engages in wrongdoing, he is out of order.

The unbelievable denial is rampant.
Of course idulgences were sold of course the pope not only knew but approved it.
It is because of this and many other abuses the the Catholic Church has lost much of its authority.

No, the abuses resulted in many people rejecting the authority of the Church, and understandibly so. People living in sin do provide a bad witness to Christ. However, there is no amount of sin that can nullify Christ.

God takes authority away from wicked men. Many of the popes and leaders of the Catholic Church were wicked in the middle ages.

This is quite true, but the authority was not given in the first place to “wicked men” but the Church, the Holy and pure bride of Christ.

Eph 5:25-27
“Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 in order to make her holy by cleansing her with the washing of water by the word, 27 so as to present the church to himself in splendor, without a spot or wrinkle or anything of the kind — yes, so that she may be holy and without blemish.”

Eph 5:29-31
" For no one ever hates his own body, but he nourishes and tenderly cares for it, just as Christ does for the church, 30 because we are members of his body. "

Jesus loves his own body, and He tenderly cares for it,for He cannot deny Himself. Though sinful men may fall away from Him, and be separated from His Body, the Church, the Church is pure and undefiled because of what He has done. Their sins cannot detract from His washing, only place themselves outside of it’s effects.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;4275724]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Was it right and of Christ the way indulgences were sold to the people during this people? Did not the way this was done have the highest approval in the church i.e. the pope?
guanophore
The Pope is not the “highest approval” in the Church. That belongs only to Jesus, who is the Head of the Church. If the Pope engages in wrongdoing, he is out of order

.
How can this be? How can it be the Vicar of Christ in whom Christ surely leads engage in wrongdoing? Is it not claimed that the church (in whom the pope is the supreme member on earth) cannot err in matters of faith and morals?

 

[M0nkey]

That goes only as far as teaching. The pope is set on top of a foundation that cannot be changed in most cases. Therefore, he can only advance the faith while leaving the foundation unchanged. Hope that helps.

 

[cazayoux]

Was it right and of Christ the way indulgences were sold to the people during this people? Did not the way this was done have the highest approval in the church i.e. the pope?

See post #201

michel

 

[charlye]

Because Protestants are afraid to answer questions like these. They are afraid the Catholic church will make sense and they are in error.
It is pride if you ask me.

At the risk of another infraction …

 

[RNRobert]

No denial here.
Yes, alms-giving is considered a good and wholesome thing to do.

Do you see almsgiving as a bad thing?

Don’t forget the story of Cornelius in Acts 10. He was told by the angel “Thy prayers and thy alms are ascended for a memorial in the sight of God.” (verse 4)

 

[RNRobert]

.
How can this be? How can it be the Vicar of Christ in whom Christ surely leads engage in wrongdoing? Is it not claimed that the church (in whom the pope is the supreme member on earth) cannot err in matters of faith and morals?

Do you recall how Caiaphas made a prophecy about Jesus in John 11:49-52? He was able to do this not because of his holiness or his love for Jesus(far from it), but because he was high priest that year. In other words, it WAS BY VIRTUE OF HIS OFFICE. So too with the Pope. Fortunately only a few have been bac, but he is protected from teaching error by virtue of his office.

 

[guanophore]

How can this be? How can it be the Vicar of Christ in whom Christ surely leads engage in wrongdoing?

The leading of the Holy Spirit does not mean that a person will follow the lead. Peter was not following the HS when he was acting hypocritically.

You said yourself you follow Jesus, yet you sin. How can this be?

Is it not claimed that the church (in whom the pope is the supreme member on earth)

No. There is no “supreme member on earth”. What a ridiculous statement. Who feeds you this drivel?

cannot err in matters of faith and morals?

When the successor of Peter makes an ex Cathedra statement, the HS prevents Him from teaching error. The gift of infalliblity does not mean that he is impeccable (without sin).

The pope goes to confession at least once a week, to be absolved of his sins.

 

[reccanboy]

Protestants, did Jesus Christ gave us a Church with authority?

If he did, then when why do some of your fore fathers ignore Church authority?

If he did not gave us an Church with authority, whom did Jesus handed his authority too? Did Church authority fell away when the last Apostle die?

How would it justifying adding 27 NT text in the Bible? Since the Holy Bible did not added the 27 NT text into the canon but rather local Synods of the Church.

Christ gave the Church authority, but not infallible authority. The whole “Canon Argument” is so baseless, as every Jew before the time of Christ accepted the canon of the fallible Jewish teaching authority.

 

[guanophore]

Christ gave the Church authority, but not infallible authority. The whole “Canon Argument” is so baseless, as every Jew before the time of Christ accepted the canon of the fallible Jewish teaching authority.

Clearly you know very little about your family history. There was not an agreed upon canon until a century after Jesus was born.

You can find evidence of this in the book of Acts. Paul was very adept at starting arguements among the members of the Sanhedran. The Sadducees only accepted the books of Moses (Torah) while the Pharisees accepted the Torah, , the psalms, the prophets, and the Writings.

After the death of Christ, the Jews were anxious to take out the books that were used by Jesus and the Apostles, since they supported Catholic belief. The canon formed by the Jews that rejected Christ is the one used by many protestants today.

 

[reccanboy]

Clearly you know very little about your family history. There was not an agreed upon canon until a century after Jesus was born.

You can find evidence of this in the book of Acts. Paul was very adept at starting arguements among the members of the Sanhedran. The Sadducees only accepted the books of Moses (Torah) while the Pharisees accepted the Torah, , the psalms, the prophets, and the Writings.

After the death of Christ, the Jews were anxious to take out the books that were used by Jesus and the Apostles, since they supported Catholic belief. The canon formed by the Jews that rejected Christ is the one used by many protestants today.

I know much about Second Temple Judaism. The simple fact that the believing Jew, decades before the incarnation, could believe in the Torah, demonstrates that the Jews recognized God’s words (through a fallible authority).

Besides, the Sadducees were founded in the 2nd century B.C.E, are you honestly using them as an argument? Jesus himself said: “Did you not read what God has said to you: ‘I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.’” They did not hear the voice of God in the Torah, so they denied the Prophets and the Writings.

However, those who did (Examples found in Sirach and 2 Maccabees 15, where the Law and Prophets are mentioned) are clearly recognized as Scripture.

 

[guanophore]

They did not hear the voice of God in the Torah, so they denied the Prophets and the Writings.

However, those who did (Examples found in Sirach and 2 Maccabees 15, where the Law and Prophets are mentioned) are clearly recognized as Scripture.

I am sorry, but I cannot make any sense out of this statement.

 

[reccanboy]

I am sorry, but I cannot make any sense out of this statement.

“But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’” -Matthew 22

“By encouraging them with words from the law and the prophets, and by reminding them of the battles they had already won, he filled them with fresh enthusiasm.” - 2 Maccabees 15:9

No infallible church needed. Just the people of God.

 

[guanophore]

“But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’” -Matthew 22

“By encouraging them with words from the law and the prophets, and by reminding them of the battles they had already won, he filled them with fresh enthusiasm.” - 2 Maccabees 15:9

No infallible church needed. Just the people of God.

I still don’t understand the point you are trying to make. These are God’s chosen people, set apart for himself. They are feeding themselves spiritually from the Law and the Prophets.

Are you using this example to “prove” that an infallible authority is not necessary?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Christ gave the Church authority, but not infallible authority. The whole “Canon Argument” is so baseless, as every Jew before the time of Christ accepted the canon of the fallible Jewish teaching authority.

Actually, there was no Jewish Canon or a list put together by a Council. The Scripture in those days were 46 OT to include the Deutrocanonical Books but no Scrib made a declaration of any of them to be inspired. They were mainly use for Jewish worship service.

Jesus Christ did give infallible authority to the Church. He gave the Church the authority to bind and lose.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Do you realize that that Jewish trials at night were illegal. Christians alledge that Jesus was tried at night, because it was against the Jewish law Jesus could never have been tried at night.

ARE YOU NUTS!!!
Of course idulgences were sold and of course it had the approval of the popes and of cardinals.

They were not sold. It was condemned in 1215 AD if you bother reading my posts.

And no I am not nuts.

 

[Mannyfit75]

The unbelievable denial is rampant.

Yeah, your denial of the truth by insisting that Pope condoned selling indulgence.

Of course idulgences were sold of course the pope not only knew but approved it.

It was not sold. Read the article:

catholic.com/library/Myths_About_Indulgences.asp

It is because of this and many other abuses the the Catholic Church has lost much of its authority.

They lost much of their secular authority but their Church Author Remain in tact.

God takes authority away from wicked men. Many of the popes and leaders of the Catholic Church were wicked in the middle ages.

Then you can brand Jesus Christ a liar when he told Peter, “The gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” It being his Church.

So is Jesus lying then?

 

[Mannyfit75]

“But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’” -Matthew 22

“By encouraging them with words from the law and the prophets, and by reminding them of the battles they had already won, he filled them with fresh enthusiasm.” - 2 Maccabees 15:9

No infallible church needed. Just the people of God.

If there is no infallible Church then you can throw away your Bible because the Catholic Church put the Bible in its full context in the first place and declared it to be the inspire Word of God.