Protestants, did Jesus Christ gave us a Church with authority?

[Hajnalcsillag]

See, here’s the thing:
Jesus left us with the Church and the Holy Spirit’s guidance so that we wouldn’t be left wandering in a spiritual desert like Protestants with varying and quarreling degrees of authority.
**In short - I don’t **have to interpret for myself - as I follow the Authority left by Jesus himself.

Did I seriously just read this?

 

[cazayoux]

Can you explain Matthew 23:9?

Hehehehe …

Matt 23:9
[9] And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.

So … you don’t read in context.
If we take this OUT of context, like you do, then we cannot even call that guy married to our mothers ‘father’.
Not only are we allowed to call that man ‘father’, but are told we must HONOR him. (It’s part of the big 10)

Matt 1 gives a whole list of ‘fathers’.
Mark 11:10 even calls David our father.
Luke 16:30 even call Abraham, ‘father Abraham’.
John 4 has the Samarian woman call Jacob ‘our father Jacob’ when talking to Jesus … and He didn’t rebuke for for that faux pas.

context, context, context…
That’s the problem with memorized one-liners.
Suggestion: Read the WHOLE bible.

michel

 

[elvisman]

To be sure there are differences of beliefs and opinions about these things. The same is also true in the Catholic church. Not everyone believes all the same things exactly alike.

What is the offical position of the Catholic church on predestination?

As I indicated before - those “Catholics” who reject Church teachings are nothing more than Protestants.

 

[elvisman]

Do you actually believe what is spewing from yourself?

Yup - I believe EVERYTHING the bible teaches us.

Good to hear from you, SIA. I got use to your running away from my reponses to your posts.

 

[elvisman]

Did I seriously just read this?

As I told SIA:
Yup - I believe EVERYTHING the bible teaches us.
It’s a shame YOU don’t.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

What is the offical position of the Catholic church on predestination?

The Church leaves the question open as it is a mystery.

The Church does belive in predestination, but leaves room for disagreement about what this actually means.

The two primary schools of thought are Molinism, which leans Arminian(in protestant speak), and Thomism, which leans Calvinist.

Molinism and Thomism are less extreme than the two protestant poles on this issue.

 

[Leeann]

Originally Posted by Hisalone
God takes authority away from wicked men. Many of the popes and leaders of the Catholic Church were wicked in the middle ages.

Response guanophore:
This is quite true, but the authority was not given in the first place to “wicked men” but the Church, the Holy and pure bride of Christ.

Eph 5:25-27
“Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 in order to make her holy by cleansing her with the washing of water by the word, 27 so as to present the church to himself in splendor, without a spot or wrinkle or anything of the kind — yes, so that she may be holy and without blemish.”

Eph 5:29-31
" For no one ever hates his own body, but he nourishes and tenderly cares for it, just as Christ does for the church, 30 because we are members of his body. "

Jesus loves his own body, and He tenderly cares for it,for He cannot deny Himself. Though sinful men may fall away from Him, and be separated from His Body, the Church, the Church is pure and undefiled because of what He has done. Their sins cannot detract from His washing, only place themselves outside of it’s effects.

This only applies if one believes that the Catholic church is the same church that Jesus and His Apostles established.

The same church that follows His and their teachings of the “gospel message” with no additional conditions attached to the message of salvation that they preached (such as the necessity of being a member to ONE particular church in order to obtain salvation).

Or for the need to believe and adhere to new doctrines/dogmas “attached” to that pure “gospel message”, that would in any way dilute or take the focus away from Him or the His blood sacrifice for all mankind. (Marian theology and dogmas).

If it is not – then it is not the same church established and loved by Jesus and His Apostles.

Of course God is always faithful. He promised to be with the church until the end of time…His true church that holds to His true gospel message….the church that was built up of believers, based on the Apostles’ teaching and authority that was also based on His true gospel message…His church…the true,faithful believers in every Christian denomination (Prot/Cath)…He knows His sheep and they know His voice.

He is still with those of that “church” – the body of true believers - and will be until the end of time.

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by justasking4 **
This is a classic example of your confusion with Scripture. If you had read the passage where Jesus prays for unity you would seen that unity is not based on the “Rock” but on unity-oneness He had with the Father. See John 17:21

Response guanophore:
Unity is based on Truth. Jesus prayed that they might be One in the Truth. He is the Truth. All doctrine that comes out of Him unifies. This is how we know that the Reformation doctrines are not from Him. They divided, and continue to divide. There is less and less unity, and more disunity.

The reformers weren’t separating from the Apostolic authority appointed by Christ…they were separating themselves “back to it” the original gospel message…getting back to the way, the truth, the life.

John 14:V6
[6] Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

**Originally Posted by justasking4 **
Would you agree then that what unities all believers is not the pope or a church but it is those who believe Who Jesus is and what He came to do?

Response guanophore:
There is no distinction between them. The successor of Peter is the visible sign of the unity for which Christ prayed. All who are in unity with Christ are, by default, in unity with the successor of Peter. There is no distinction between the Rock that is Christ, the Rock that is the profession of faith, and the Rock that is Peter. All are in perfect unity.

I believe there is a distinction between them.

To say that the successor of Peter, (the pope?) is the visible sign of the unity for which Christ prayed, is what the Catholic church believes and puts forth, however there is no indication anywhere that this is true…when Jesus prayed He said:

John 17:
[20] Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
[21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
[22] And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
[23] I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

The unity of His church… is very visible, as is exhibited in each and every faithful believer’s life, whether they be in the Catholic church or a Protestant denomination or a non-denominational church. The one core “Truth” that unifies them in His body is their faith and belief in who HE is and what He has done for mankind.

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by justasking4 **
Do you have a couple of examples what these denominations are quarrelling about?

Response guanophore:
Is that relevant to the topic? They quarrel because they have no unified authority, and everyone does what is right in his own eyes. Everyone perceives scripture differently, and they all read it according to their education (or lack therof) and life experiences. Some, like yourself, are fueled with massive anti-Catholic hostility and bigotry. These influences change how the scriptures are understood.

Such assumptions and pronouncements are beneath you guanophore.
I’ve seen lots of your postings in different threads/forums and I’ve never seen anything like that from you before.
We should all be careful, as our own words can be mirrored back to ourselves, just by our voicing (in this case) posting of them.
If anyone should know, it would be me!

Response guanophore:
Scripture cannot exercise authority. It is not one of the qualities of the Holy Writings. Authority requires intellect and will. Therefore, everyone who claims to use scripture as the authority is really using their own intellect and will.

Another assumption about what people “use” when referring to the scriptures for authority.

Scripture most certainly can/has and does “exercise authority” by the very nature **of what it is **and by whom it was inspired, which also addresses why this authority is indeed one of its “qualities”.

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. ~Hebrews 4:12

And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites: and it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the Lord his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them: ~Deuteronomy 17:18-19

This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success. ~Joshua 1:8

Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander, like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation, if you have tasted the kindness of the Lord. -1 Peter 2: 1-3

The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seventimes. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. Psalm 12:6-7

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith. ~Romans 16:26

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. ~II Timothy 3:15

 

[guanophore]

This only applies if one believes that the Catholic church is the same church that Jesus and His Apostles established.

Actually, this is an absurd assertion. The idea that God’s eternal truth would only apply if one person accepted it were true doesn’t make any sense.

Of course it applies, whether you accept it or not, Jesus only founded One Church. You may reject that it applies to you, and that is your right, since God created you with free will, you can reject all of His Truth, if you wish.

The same church that follows His and their teachings of the “gospel message” with no additional conditions attached to the message of salvation that they preached (such as the necessity of being a member to ONE particular church in order to obtain salvation).

I am sorry that you have a deficient view of the Church, Leeann. I am not sure how you came by this, and why it is that you seem to be unable to correct this misperception. There is only One Church. Jesus only has One Body.

Or for the need to believe and adhere to new doctrines/dogmas “attached” to that pure “gospel message”, that would in any way dilute or take the focus away from Him or the His blood sacrifice for all mankind. (Marian theology and dogmas).

Clearly you misunderstand the Catholic teaching. Mary, better than any other created being, counsels us over the centuries to “do whatever He tells you”. she is 100% Christ centered, and was “added” to His plan of salvation by God Himself, not by anything man has done. “The almighty God has done great things for me”. Listen to her testimony.

If it is not – then it is not the same church established and loved by Jesus and His Apostles.

Of course God is always faithful. He promised to be with the church until the end of time…His true church that holds to His true gospel message….the church that was built up of believers, based on the Apostles’ teaching and authority that was also based on His true gospel message…His church…the true,faithful believers in every Christian denomination (Prot/Cath)…He knows His sheep and they know His voice.

Indeed, and He prayed for unity, and He set up the means by which that unity would be preserved.

He is still with those of that “church” – the body of true believers - and will be until the end of time.

Do you know the signs of the authentic Church taught by the Apostles?

 

[guanophore]

The reformers weren’t separating from the Apostolic authority appointed by Christ…

I think you may need to do some reading of the writings of the Reformers.

they were separating themselves “back to it” the original gospel message…getting back to the way, the truth, the life.

LOL. “They were separating them selves back”. Nothing could be truer said.

And the separation backwards continues to this day, every generation getting further and further from the gospel message, so that we now have a re-emergence of heresies defeated in the early centuries.

I believe there is a distinction between them.

Has it occurred to you that, just because you believe something, that does not make it so?

To say that the successor of Peter, (the pope?) is the visible sign of the unity for which Christ prayed, is what the Catholic church believes and puts forth, however there is no indication anywhere that this is true…when Jesus prayed He said:

John 17:
[20] Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
[21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
[22] And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
[23] I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

The unity of His church… is very visible, as is exhibited in each and every faithful believer’s life, whether they be in the Catholic church or a Protestant denomination or a non-denominational church. The one core “Truth” that unifies them in His body is their faith and belief in who HE is and what He has done for mankind.

No, I do not think that it is very visible in all believers. I agree that there are many believers who are not visibly Catholic, and that the unity occurs because we are all united to the Head, who is Christ. However, Jesus did intend for there to be visible unity, and he set this up through Peter, and it has been passed on to the successors of Peter. Part of the Petrine gift is to function as a visible sign of unity on earth.

 

[guanophore]

Such assumptions and pronouncements are beneath you guanophore.
I’ve seen lots of your postings in different threads/forums and I’ve never seen anything like that from you before.
We should all be careful, as our own words can be mirrored back to ourselves, just by our voicing (in this case) posting of them.
If anyone should know, it would be me!

ja4 and I have a long history, and it is there for anyone to read. If you look back over the last 2 years, especially in the beginning, the anti-catholic hatred and bigotry is quite evident. It has softened subsequent to warnings an suspension, but ja4 has not had a change of heart about the Catholic Church any more than you have.

Another assumption about what people “use” when referring to the scriptures for authority.

Indeed! do you believe the text contains intellect and will? Do you disagree that everyone who reads interprets?

Scripture most certainly can/has and does “exercise authority” by the very nature **of what it is **and by whom it was inspired, which also addresses why this authority is indeed one of its “qualities”.

No. Scripture is authoritative because it is Sacred in it’s Source. But it does not act. The reason that Jesus committed authority to the Apostles is because the exercise of it requires discernment, intellect, and will. These are qualities of persons, not Holy Writings. The Scriptures to not “discipline” the flock.

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. ~Hebrews 4:12

Indeed! And we hold that the Word of God is Christ, and proceeds from Christ. It is not confined to the Holy Writings. This passage describes the action of the HS, which does work through the Holy Writings. we know it is not the writings alone, since people read them all the time, yet are not touched or changed. It is the Spirit (a person) that does this.
Leeann;4332510:

And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book

out of that which is before the priests the Levites: and it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the Lord his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them: ~Deuteronomy 17:18-19

This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success. ~Joshua 1:8

Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander, like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation, if you have tasted the kindness of the Lord. -1 Peter 2: 1-3

The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seventimes. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. Psalm 12:6-7

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith. ~Romans 16:26

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. ~II Timothy 3:15

The Catholic Church believes and practices all these things. The fact that we do not attribute qualities to scripture that they cannot exhibit devalues them in no way.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Or for the need to believe and adhere to new doctrines/dogmas “attached” to that pure “gospel message”, that would in any way dilute or take the focus away from Him or the His blood sacrifice for all mankind. (Marian theology and dogmas).

The purposeful (though not necessarily individually conscious) ignorance of puritans regarding simple facts is always quite amazing to me, but, really shouldn’t be.

They are a people of “bare essentials” instead a people of “most fullness”, and while that doesn’t exclude them from salvation, it does make it unnecessarily more difficult for them.

Oh well. They are in my prayers, as they need them more than they know, as they proudly refuse to see.

:shamrock2:

 

[Leeann]

The purposeful (though not necessarily individually conscious) ignorance of puritans regarding simple facts is always quite amazing to me, but, really shouldn’t be.

They are a people of “bare essentials” instead a people of “most fullness”, and while that doesn’t exclude them from salvation, it does make it unnecessarily more difficult for them.

Oh well. They are in my prayers, as they need them more than they know, as they proudly refuse to see.

:shamrock2:

Hi CatsAndDogs

That’s an interesting viewpoint, however I don’t seem to be as familiar with the “puritan” way as you apparently are…I mean how you seem to know how much “fullness” they would be experiencing or how “difficult” it is for them…so I’ll leave you to it…but I will join you in prayer for that awful “pride” that they seemingly display. It’s wonderful how you are able to zero right in and identify it and point it out to others!

 

[Leeann]

Originally Posted by Leeann
This only applies if one believes that the Catholic church is the same church that Jesus and His Apostles established.

Response guanophore:
Actually, this is an absurd assertion. The idea that God’s eternal truth would only apply if one person accepted it were true doesn’t make any sense.

What is really absurd, is the belief that God’s eternal truth is being taught and adhered too by the Catholic church in the same manner as Jesus and His Apostles taught and commanded it to be.

Originally Posted by Leeann
The same church that follows His and their teachings of the “gospel message” with no additional conditions attached to the message of salvation that they preached (such as the necessity of being a member to ONE particular church in order to obtain salvation).

Response guanophore:
I am sorry that you have a deficient view of the Church, Leeann. I am not sure how you came by this, and why it is that you seem to be unable to correct this misperception. There is only One Church. Jesus only has One Body.

Sure you know guanophore – the catechism that has been posted repeatedly states it quite clearly – that by Catholic church teaching, Jesus’ One Body is composed of only members of the Catholic church – believers “outside of the Catholic church” – are in an “imperfect communion” with the Catholic church….and therefore not in communion with Christ, or able to obtain salvation.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Or for the need to believe and adhere to new doctrines/dogmas “attached” to that pure “gospel message”, that would in any way dilute or take the focus away from Him or the His blood sacrifice for all mankind. (Marian theology and dogmas).

Response guanophore:
Clearly you misunderstand the Catholic teaching. Mary, better than any other created being, counsels us over the centuries to “do whatever He tells you”. she is 100% Christ centered, and was “added” to His plan of salvation by God Himself, not by anything man has done. “The almighty God has done great things for me”. Listen to her testimony.

There is no doubt at all that Mary is Christ centered – it’s the Catholic church that isn’t Christ centered anymore.

As for God using Mary in His plan of salvation – that’s obvious – however not the essential or necessary part of the “gospel message” that Jesus told His Apostles to go out and preach/teach – that was all about HIM! Focus on HIS testimony!

So it isn’t necessary for members of the Catholic church to believe the Marian dogmas??? What happens if they don’t believe? Can they still remain members of the Catholic church?

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
If it is not – then it is not the same church established and loved by Jesus and His Apostles.

Of course God is always faithful. He promised to be with the church until the end of time…His true church that holds to His true gospel message….the church that was built up of believers, based on the Apostles’ teaching and authority that was also based on His true gospel message…His church…the true,faithful believers in every Christian denomination (Prot/Cath)…He knows His sheep and they know His voice.

Response guanophore:
Indeed, and He prayed for unity, and He set up the means by which that unity would be preserved.

And there is unity amongst all true believers in His gospel message…it’s in their belief in Him and His life/death/resurrection…etc…that’s the one thing that unites all Christians.

Response guanophore:
Do you know the signs of the authentic Church taught by the Apostles?

guanophore – I don’t think I’ve hear of that, will you post them for me please…seriously….Thanks.

 

[Leeann]

Originally Posted by Leeann
The reformers weren’t separating from the Apostolic authority appointed by Christ…they were separating themselves “back to it” the original gospel message…getting back to the way, the truth, the life.

Response guanophore:
LOL. “They were separating them selves back”. Nothing could be truer said.
And the separation backwards continues to this day, every generation getting further and further from the gospel message, so that we now have a re-emergence of heresies defeated in the early centuries.

What makes you think that all of those “heresies” were actually defeated in the early centuries and that no new ones have either sprung up or “blossomed” over the centuries – into what the Catholic church teaches today?

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
I believe there is a distinction between them.

Response guanophore:
Has it occurred to you that, just because you believe something, that does not make it so?

Yes…as I’m sure the same would apply for you and everyone else…however I’m simply stating a fact as to what I believe, just as you and others in here do when you post:shrug: .

**guanophore:**No, I do not think that it is very visible in all believers. I agree that there are many believers who are not visibly Catholic, and that the unity occurs because we are all united to the Head, who is Christ. However, Jesus did intend for there to be visible unity, and he set this up through Peter, and it has been passed on to the successors of Peter. Part of the Petrine gift is to function as a visible sign of unity on earth.

Well…that’s what you have been taught and “believe”…but, as you know I don’t “believe” that to be true, based on what the Catholic church actually teaches today.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

That’s an interesting viewpoint, however I don’t seem to be as familiar with the “puritan” way as you apparently are…I mean how you seem to know how much “fullness” they would be experiencing or how “difficult” it is for them…so I’ll leave you to it…but I will join you in prayer for that awful “pride” that they seemingly display. It’s wonderful how you are able to zero right in and identify it and point it out to others!

I’m sorry.

I thought you realized that Catholics know that the Church (Catholic) is the fullness of the truth, and know therefore that that which people cling to that is not the Church is not the fullness of the truth that they are clinging to.

That anyone wouldn’t accept that is merely a statement of their present state of education on the matter, perhaps with a bit of assistance from some demon or other in continuing being committed to that educational level.

It’s not particularly difficult to see that those not in fullest communion with God’s Church are being prideful in being so when they obviously know that which they need to know to not be so.

Then again, those who may be invincibly ignorant, due to circumstances, aren’t culpable of their error, and aren’t the “prideful” that I was taking about.

I say what I believe, and believe what I say. That you’d have me do otherwise is commentary only on yourself.

:shamrock2:

 

[Leeann]

Response guanophore:
Scripture cannot exercise authority. It is not one of the qualities of the Holy Writings. Authority requires intellect and will. Therefore, everyone who claims to use scripture as the authority is really using their own intellect and will.

Response Leeann:
Another assumption about what people “use” when referring to the scriptures for authority.

Response guanophore:
Indeed! do you believe the text contains intellect and will?

Response Leeann:
(as posted again further down):
Scripture most certainly can/has and does “exercise authority” by the very nature of what it is and by whom it was inspired, which also addresses why this authority is indeed one of its “qualities”.

guanophore:
Therefore, everyone who claims to use scripture as the authority is really using their own intellect and will.
Response Leeann:
Some may choose to do it that way and that is wrong, but to claim that “everyone” does it that way, by simply **relying solely on their own intellect and will **is nothing more than your “opinion”.

guanophore:
Do you disagree that everyone who reads interprets?
Response Leeann:
I agree with you, everyone who reads interprets, however as indicated in my sentence above, the outcome of their understanding is based on “how” they go about reading it.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Scripture most certainly can/has and does “exercise authority” by the very nature of what it is and by whom it was inspired, which also addresses why this authority is indeed one of its “qualities”.

Response guanophore:
No. Scripture is authoritative because it is Sacred in it’s Source. But it does not act. The reason that Jesus committed authority to the Apostles is because the exercise of it requires discernment, intellect, and will. These are qualities of persons, not Holy Writings. The Scriptures to not “discipline” the flock.

I’m glad you mentioned the qualities of persons, which in the context above I think you mean “human beings” – the Apostles? You also mention the reason for Jesus committing authority to the Apostles, is because the exercise of it (authority) requires discernment, intellect and will.
Surely the first requirement you list, that of being “discernment”, would not be from their own human understanding, as it was evident that in many cases they fell short, but it would be by the “discernment qualities” of the PERSON of the Holy Spirit that would be leading them.
The Holy Spirit inspired the “writing” of the scriptures and Jesus Himself is the living Word that the Apostles taught and preached and is evident from the scriptures of the O.T. – and N.T. the scriptures did indeed “discipline” the flock.

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. ~Hebrews 4:12

Response guanophore:
Indeed! And we hold that the Word of God is Christ, and proceeds from Christ. It is not confined to the Holy Writings. This passage describes the action of the HS, which does work through the Holy Writings. we know it is not the writings alone, since people read them all the time, yet are not touched or changed. It is the Spirit (a person) that does this.

That’s what I’ve been saying. That’s what I meant above….before.

Response guanophore:
The Catholic Church believes and practices all these things. The fact that we do not attribute qualities to scripture that they cannot exhibit devalues them in no way.

After re-reading all our “quotes” and “answers” above – I’m not sure of what to post to this last sentence of yours about “not attributing qualities to scripture that they cannot exhibit”???

The Holy Spirit inspired all scripture that has been written, The Holy Spirit reaches, teaches and makes known God’s Will for all men through these scriptures.

What was the question again?

 

[justasking4]

CatsAndDogs;4334454]I’m sorry.

I thought you realized that Catholics know that the Church (Catholic) is the fullness of the truth, and know therefore that that which people cling to that is not the Church is not the fullness of the truth that they are clinging to.

That anyone wouldn’t accept that is merely a statement of their present state of education on the matter, perhaps with a bit of assistance from some demon or other in continuing being committed to that educational level.

It’s not particularly difficult to see that those not in fullest communion with God’s Church are being prideful in being so when they obviously know that which they need to know to not be so.

Then again, those who may be invincibly ignorant, due to circumstances, aren’t culpable of their error, and aren’t the “prideful” that I was taking about.

I say what I believe, and believe what I say. That you’d have me do otherwise is commentary only on yourself.

:shamrock2:

Is the “fullness of the truth” part of the pope who recently prayed to Mary to have “pity on the nations” and imploring her for help?

This link will direct you to an article about this… zenit.org/article-23987?l=english

 

[Leeann]

I’m sorry.

I thought you realized that Catholics know that the Church (Catholic) is the fullness of the truth, and know therefore that that which people cling to that is not the Church is not the fullness of the truth that they are clinging to.

That anyone wouldn’t accept that is merely a statement of their present state of education on the matter, perhaps with a bit of assistance from some demon or other in continuing being committed to that educational level.

It’s not particularly difficult to see that those not in fullest communion with God’s Church are being prideful in being so when they obviously know that which they need to know to not be so.

Then again, those who may be invincibly ignorant, due to circumstances, aren’t culpable of their error, and aren’t the “prideful” that I was taking about.

I say what I believe, and believe what I say. That you’d have me do otherwise is commentary only on yourself.

:shamrock2:

No need to apologize! I don’t know…you seem fine just the way you are to me…very concerned and prayerful…just one question though …do you also pray for the “invincibly ignorant” ones or just for the “prideful” ones???:compcoff: