Protestants, did Jesus Christ gave us a Church with authority?

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
“The thread/forum title reads: “Protestants, did Jesus Christ give us a Church with authority?"
I’m attempting to answer the question.

guanophore:
Actually, it often seems that you are taking advantage of opportunities to disparage the Catholic Church.

Anything that would be in disagreement with what you perceive as the truth in relation to the Catholic church,would be considered “disparaging”.

**Originally Posted by guanophore **
This is also a thread you jumped into after several other threads where you had spouted your hostility toward the Catholic Church.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
See above post…again…

Response guanophore:
Yes, your hostility toward the Church is evident in most of your posts.

Or “perceived” by yourself as such, because they don’t agree with what you believe.

**guanophore:**No, there is no good reason to rebel against the authority that was appointed by Christ.

When any “claimed” authority alters Christ’s original mandate there most certainly is!

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
And you haven’t let me down either guanophore…just as I expected.

Response guanophore:
Your previous post implies that you exptected honesty and forthrightness. Does this mean that I have rightly assessed your condescending attitude toward the Catholic Church, or did I miss the mark?

If you consider how you’ve been responding to me, to be how you honestly feel…and you certainly have been forthright about it…then yes!

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Well, you know what…I think as of finishing this post…you’ve whetted my appetite in other areas now…such a reaction is interesting…and while I still lay claim to my original convictions as to why I came into the CAF, I think you’ve actually peaked my interest to delve even further into why and how Catholics believe the things they do.

Response guanophore:

If you really wish to do this, I think you are in the right place.

I was only kidding guanophore!

This is all I can handle time wise as it is and covers most other areas, as stated before, by being the “bottom line” so to speak, all coming back to the authority.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
One of my first questions would be -why is there a topic thread – in the Non-Catholic area - with a title such as:
“Protestants, did Jesus Christ give a church with authority?” – if no one is allowed to come in and respond to the question asked as honestly and openly as they can (and respond “in kind” at times)…especially when all other areas will eventually lead back to the question of authority anyway…saving time in other threads that just go off topic?

Response guanophore:
I was not critiqing anyone’s valid response to the thread. I was observing your hostile attitude in the process.

You mean you were ‘looking’ for it – there’s a
big difference!

guanophore:
I am going to attach another response to yours, since this one seems close to your perceptions also.

***Originally Posted by ChristianKnight ***
I think Jesus Christ gave us faith, not a church, not a organization, a belief. I like that many of the people in the RCC/CC are devoted, but so are many in the SBA, and other “Protestant” churches.

If faith is from Christ, why does He often say YOUR faith has saved you?
Why did He say “on this rock I will build my Church”?
Why does the Bible say there is only one church?

***Originally Posted by ChristianKnight ***
I do not think I have to be in a certain eh, I guess “church”, I want to say organization cause I use that word a lot in my ag classes, but I think if you have faith, and try your best to commit to a life for the Trinity, you go to heaven, no matter who says otherwise

This is not consistent with what Scripture states we must do to be saved.

Close maybe – not quite though.
And the purpose of splicing another posters comments in here was “what”???

 

[guanophore]

Anything that would be in disagreement with what you perceive as the truth in relation to the Catholic church,would be considered “disparaging”.

Not at all! I think if you read my posts you will see that I try to find as much agreement to affirm as possible. It is your tone and attitude that I find disparagng.

Or “perceived” by yourself as such, because they don’t agree with what you believe.

I think it is possible to disagree with out hostile and disparaging remarks. But yes, I do find these hostile. I am curious how it happened that you developed so much hostility toward Catholicism?

When any “claimed” authority alters Christ’s original mandate there most certainly is!

Do you believe that Jesus appointed an authority?

I was only kidding guanophore!

Phooey! I was getting excited there for a minute!
Leeann;4338072:

This is all I can handle time wise as it is and covers most other areas, as stated before, by being the “bottom line” so to speak, all coming back to the authority.

Yes. This much is clear. There are a number of people out there who have been badly wounded by authority figures, and it has made them very suspicious of authority, especially one that claims to be infallible.

You mean you were ‘looking’ for it – there’s a
big difference!

I look for the tone in every post. You are right, sometimes there is a big difference between the words,a nd the tone.

Close maybe – not quite though.
And the purpose of splicing another posters comments in here was “what”???

I am trying not to clutter up the thread, so I am combining posts. It seemed to me that the issue brought up there was similar to your own.

BTW, I did not detect any hostility in this post.

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **

"….have gone overboard, really overboard – not what posters on here have posted to be the “norm” – I’ve learned a great deal from the various posters as to why and what and how they believe, which may help me understand and be able to bring back my friends’ focus of faith.

Response guanophore:
Ok, so being here has given you a clearer understanding about what Catholics believe (or are supposed to believe) and you believe you can use this to help your loved ones. Has this worked?

I’m hoping it will! Do you want me to keep you posted???

guanophore:
Have you rescued them from what you perceive as idolatry?

Those are your words guanophore – not mine. :tsktsk:

Response Leeann:
What you perceive as my “persistent attacks” on the church – are my responses to statements or questions that have been asked.
guanophore:
Yes. your hostility and bigotry comes through clearly.

Originally Posted by Leeann
guanophore – you see what you want to see.

guanophore:
Indeed not! I have found the reading of your posts to be quite a painful and sad experience. What I want to see is for you to let go of that anti-Catholic hate.

Well I am sincerely sorry that you perceive them that way.
Sometimes the truth can hurt and be painful to accept, a lot has to do with our own outlook and sensitive natures, and how they can sometimes cloud our reasoning.
As I’ve stated before, I’m not anti-Catholic, it’s the Catholic church itself that concerns me with their teachings that have affected so many sincere and faithful souls.

Originally Posted by Leeann
We’d all benefit by going back and reviewing our initial posts I’m sure.

guanophore:
Does this mean you will do so? Are you willing to see yourself as others see you?

In all honesty…I’m not willing to do so…too much time involved…but it’s out there and evidently those postings, by ***your ***understanding are not that much different to the way I’ve been posting in here……as you’ve pointed out many times…so I guess…what you see, is what you get! This is me.

Now let’s take a look at you guanophore.

Name calling…attaching labels to people when all else fails….accusations of others being condescending, hostile and bigoted…oh and full of hate, when they answer (yes…sometimes “in kind”) to either direct questions that require direct responses or pose questions themselves…that make you uncomfortable and defensive. Did I miss anything?

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Assuming that Jesus made His promises to what you consider to be His church

Response guanophore:
Jesus only founded ONE CHURCH Leeann. All the promises He made to that ONE CHURCH.
Eph 5:25-31
" Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 in order to make her holy by cleansing her with the washing of water by the word, 27 so as to present the church to himself in splendor, without a spot or wrinkle or anything of the kind — yes, so that she may be holy and without blemish. 28 In the same way, husbands should love their wives as they do their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hates his own body, but he nourishes and tenderly cares for it, just as Christ does for the church, 30 because we are members of his body."

Jesus loved His Bride so much that He gave up His life for Her, and presented her to Himself in perfect purity. The purity of the church comes from Christ. You have erroneously ascribed the shortcomings if sinful members of the Body to Christ. You have impugned the one whom he nourishes and tenderly cares for with their failings.

Again…assuming that Jesus made His promises to what you consider to be His one church. (I’m assuming you mean the Catholic church as we know it today?)

guanophore:
I have found your answers here, although cynical, not as disparaging as most, so I would say that you are on safer ground. It is always dangerous to disparage that which belongs to God, but even more, that Holy Bride that He loved so much He gave up His life for her.

Then if I were you guanophore – I would take your own advice.
Be very careful – because He gave up His life and shed His blood for each and everyone that believes in His name and follows His “gospel message” – the one He and His Apostles preached and taught – His Body – His Church – united in spirit with Him….wherever they may be.

guanophore:
He only founded ONE CHURCH Leeann. His promises were made to the ONE BRIDE.

Eph 4:5-6
“one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all.”

See above post…again.

guanophore:
I realize that you do not recognize the large tree that has sprouted from the tiny mustard seed, but I think if you will allow yourself to look, you will be able to find His Holy Bride.

I am already a part of it.
Praise Jesus!

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
The Pope is directly praying to Mary – claiming that “we will not know to whom to turn”.

Response guanophore:
That is not what he means. Jesus is Peace itself, the Prince of Peace. This is why Mary is called Queen of Peace. Her desire for peace on earth is an expression of His. Everything about Mary flows from Christ. We, too, are to be peacemakers.

How does this response above have anything at all to do with the question I posed and this excerpt of the my quote that you posted above?

Originally Posted by Leeann

Indicating two things.

One – He has already separated Mary from Jesus, as He is praying to her, directly, and Two – He is totally unaware that Jesus is approachable and willing and able to hear and help him (us) in times of need…as he states as he prays to her – “we will not know to whom to turn”.

Response guanophore:
No, on both counts.

What then would it indicate?

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
That portion in itself also indicates that the Pope does see and treat Mary separately from Jesus, as he precedes that by saying that he considers to be under “her” protection

Response guanophore:
Mary can do nothing without Jesus. If she intercedes on our behalf, it is because Jesus allows her to do this for us, just as He allowed her to intercede at the wedding in Cana. He enjoys doing favors for her. She is His mother!

But He also enjoys doing things for us – and wants to actually do things for us – that was the whole idea of His coming to earth, living as man/God, dieing and being raised again…for the salvation of all mankind and to be our comfort when in need, our source of faith…our strength in times of trouble…our protector…et al.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
That is why I ask – would the Apostles have stood beside him and having heard this, kept silent – or would they instruct him, in his despair and time of need to “hang up” and “call direct” to the one that they know can handle all things?

Response guanophore:
I am confident that the Pope was standing amidst the Apostles when he prayed this prayer. We believe that we are surrounded by the great cloud of witnesses.

Again that doesn’t answer the question posed guanophore, at least not on this posting, but I believe you will be pondering it in your heart.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
It is because of what He has done for us, that we are able to go directly to HIM and through HIM know with confidence that all our needs and requests will be heard and addressed according to His will.

Response guanophore:
Yes.

It is this confidence that Mary expresses at the wedding. She has complete confidence that He will fix the problem. She does not know how, but that does not matter to her. She tells the servants “do whatever He tells you”, because after years of practice, she had learned this.

Mary was indeed a very wise women then, wasn’t she?

Why then don’t you follow what she says – “do whatever He tells you.”

He tells us to “come to Him, all those who are weary and in need of rest” –** He** tells us
“to pray to the Father, in His name” – **He **tells us “ to knock and the door will be open”……

The point I’m making, is if your focus is centered on Him directly in the first place,there is no need to ever have to pray to someone else and say:
**“we will not know to whom to turn”, **as those do, who pray to Mary.

**Originally Posted by guanophore **
Are you tellling me that you believe in a gospel that separates Mary and the Apostles from Christ?

Response Posted by Leeann
I’m telling you that the “gospel message” that Jesus and the Apostles taught and preached for the salvation of all mankind, puts forth what is necessary for their salvation and what they must believe in. That was their doctrine – no Marian dogmas that people must believe in.

Response guanophore:
Ok. Those who have received the faith of the Apostles have not found it necessary to take this out.

Not necessary to take “what” out….???

Originally Posted by Leeann
The “gospel message” that was preached and taught by the Apostles was about Jesus’ blood
sacrifice for mankind and the hope of salvation by believing on that “gospel message.

Response guanophore:
Yes. Somehow you seem to believe that this message is separated from Mary, even though it is Written that she was an integral part of it. The blood He shed on the cross came from her.
God wanted it that way.

**Response Leeann **
But the “gospel message”, that Jesus and the Apostles preached and taught, doesn’t say anything about it being Mary’s blood that was shed on the cross for the salvation of all mankind and that belief in her and by obedience to her and by her blood we are washed and made whiter than snow.

Response guanophore:
No, because it was not. Mary gave Him blood in her womb. And Jesus was obedient to her. He chose to become her child and to grow up with her, then she stood at the foot of the cross while He shed his blood for the life of the world. She is not separated from any of it.

The “gospel message”….do you know what that is?

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
If that was to be included and a necessary part of the “gospel message” and incorporated into the doctrines of His church, He would have made mention of it during the last supper and say,
“do this in remembrance of Me and my Holy, virgin mother Mary”.
especially seeing how much he loved and respected her and wanted her to be remembered and honored to the point she is today, within the Catholic church.

But He didn’t do that.

Response guanophore:
This is some sort of artificial imposition that you have created. You are welcome to truncate the Apostolic message as much as you wish. It is this activity that gives Catholics rise to say we posess the fullness of the faith. We have not cut it down to the readers digest version. If God had not thought it important, the role of Mary would not have been included in the HOly Scripture. We consider the whole of the Apostolic faith the “gospel”, not just a few lines.

That’s never been a question.
The role of Mary is included in the scriptures.

But it is obvious, that Mary’s role was not a **significant factor in the “gospel message” that was preached and taught by Jesus and His Apostles…pertaining to what was/is necessary for the salvation of mankind. **If it were, they would have mentioned it then and there, at that time for all those they preached and taught too.

I’m not clear on what you mean by the “Apostolic faith” being the “gospel”, but it is very evident, in all the gospel books and the epistles and books after in scripture…that the **Apostle’s” **faith was placed solely in Jesus Christ….not in Mary.

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Anything that would be in disagreement with what you perceive as the truth in relation to the Catholic church,would be considered “disparaging”.

Response guanophore:
Not at all! I think if you read my posts you will see that I try to find as much agreement to affirm as possible. It is your tone and attitude that I find disparagng.

My tone and attitude?

guanophore:
I think it is possible to disagree with out hostile and disparaging remarks. But yes, I do find these hostile. I am curious how it happened that you developed so much hostility toward Catholicism?

I can’t answer that….as I don’t consider myself “hostile”.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
When any “claimed” authority alters Christ’s original mandate there most certainly is!

guanophore:
Do you believe that Jesus appointed an authority?

Oh yes! He did…to the Apostles.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
You mean you were ‘looking’ for it – there’s a
big difference!

guanophore:
I look for the tone in every post. You are right, sometimes there is a big difference between the words, and the tone.

Depending on your mood guanophore?

 

[justasking4]

My tone and attitude?

I can’t answer that….as I don’t consider myself “hostile”.

Oh yes! He did…to the Apostles.

Depending on your mood guanophore?

Be warned. This posters has powers to read minds and hearts over the net…:choocho:

 

[ChristianKnight]

guanophore:
If faith is from Christ, why does He often say YOUR faith has saved you?

Why did He say “on this rock I will build my Church”?

Why does the Bible say there is only one church?

I do not see how that question has anything to do with what I said, can you state it differently?

Cause he wanted to let people know Christianity would be on Earth? I do not know why Jesus did anything, except to die on the Cross for our sins.

When does it say that?

 

[guanophore]

I’m hoping it will! Do you want me to keep you posted???

I must confess, I am rather distressed by your report. I myself have a friend who was baptised Catholic as a child, and has become a Pagan. She worships the Lady of Guadalupe because she believes she is the Goddess. She prays to her, and it is the only Catholic feast day that she goes to Church. I kinda freaked me out when I discovered it. So when you told about your loved ones, I can understand, with consternation.

Those are your words guanophore – not mine. :tsktsk:

Well, let us be frank with one another. You posted the first commandment. I think you and I will both agree that placing any created thing before God is idolatry. I certainly consider the situation I described above to be such. Don;t you think we have a responsibility here?

Well I am sincerely sorry that you perceive them that way.
Sometimes the truth can hurt and be painful to accept, a lot has to do with our own outlook and sensitive natures, and how they can sometimes cloud our reasoning.

You are right. I used to be hostile and bigoted to the Catholic Church too. I think I must see myself here.
Leeann;4338196:

As I’ve stated before, I’m not anti-Catholic, it’s the Catholic church itself that concerns me with their teachings that have affected so many sincere and faithful souls.

This statement does not make any sense. If you believfe that the Catholic Church “itself” has somehow spiritually damaged “so many sincere and faithful souls” then how can you, as a sincere believer, not be against (anti) this?

Or, are you saying that the Catholic Church “itself” is against you,and not the other way around?

In all honesty…I’m not willing to do so…too much time involved…but it’s out there and evidently those postings, by ***your ***understanding are not that much different to the way I’ve been posting in here…..as you’ve pointed out many times…so I guess…what you see, is what you get! This is me.:shrug:

I thank you for you honesty. Yes you are correct. I have experienced your posts as hostile. However, I do think there is a difference. Perhaps you have been able to vent the really hot gases and you are not so angry, but your recent posts are not as bad.

Now let’s take a look at you guanophore.

Name calling…attaching labels to people when all else fails….accusations of others being condescending, hostile and bigoted…oh and full of hate, when they answer (yes…sometimes “in kind”) to either direct questions that require direct responses or pose questions themselves…that make you uncomfortable and defensive. Did I miss anything?

Yes, you missed that I am responding to behavior and attitudes. I cannot discern anything about you as a person on a forum like this. All I can do is let you know how your postings come across.

The discomfort I experience is not personal, as I have been where you are now, and have said all the things that you now say. The grief I now feel is the pain of the sundering of the Body.

Again…assuming that Jesus made His promises to what you consider to be His one church. (I’m assuming you mean the Catholic church as we know it today?)

No, Leeann, you have made it clear that you have very little clear of “The Catholic Church as we know it today”. In fact, you have been very specific that you do not recognize the Catholic Church of today with the Church of the NT.

I am curious, to whom do you think Jesus made these promises, or do you think He was just belching loudly?
Leeann;4338196:

=
I am already a part of it.
Praise Jesus!

You are, indeed. For some reason you feel a need to tear and rend the garment or the person of that Holy Bride.

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Well I am sincerely sorry that you perceive them that way.
Sometimes the truth can hurt and be painful to accept, a lot has to do with our own outlook and sensitive natures, and how they can sometimes cloud our reasoning.

guanophore:
You are right. I used to be hostile and bigoted to the Catholic Church too. I think I must see myself here.

Well, again, those are your own words that only you can attribute to yourself I guess.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
As I’ve stated before, I’m not anti-Catholic, it’s the Catholic church itself that concerns me with their teachings that have affected so many sincere and faithful souls.

guanophore:
This statement does not make any sense. If you believfe that the Catholic Church “itself” has somehow spiritually damaged “so many sincere and faithful souls” then how can you, as a sincere believer, not be against (anti) this?

I thought you meant “anti-Catholic” as in the people/members of the church itself,such as my friends/your friend – and I am not. As I stated, it’s the Catholic church itself that concerns me.

**
Originally Posted by Leeann **
In all honesty…I’m not willing to do so…too much time involved…but it’s out there and evidently those postings, by your understanding are not that much different to the way I’ve been posting in here……as you’ve pointed out many times…so I guess…what you see, is what you get! This is me.

guanophore:
I thank you for you honesty. Yes you are correct. I have experienced your posts as hostile. However, I do think there is a difference. Perhaps you have been able to vent the really hot gases and you are not so angry, but your recent posts are not as bad.

Or perhaps you are in a better frame of mind yourself ?

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Now let’s take a look at you guanophore.

Name calling…attaching labels to people when all else fails….accusations of others being condescending, hostile and bigoted…oh and full of hate, when they answer (yes…sometimes “in kind”) to either direct questions that require direct responses or pose questions themselves…that make you uncomfortable and defensive. Did I miss anything?

guanophore:
Yes, you missed that I am responding to behavior and attitudes. I cannot discern anything about you as a person on a forum like this. All I can do is let you know how your postings come across.

I didn’t miss your point guanophore. I was addressing it.
All *any of us *can do – is take responsibility for how *we choose or are able *to understand and receive the information that is being posted.
No one can detect “behavior and attitude” in this kind of medium.
A person may respond to a post with “one” word. –“No.” – simply due to the fact that they are in a hurry because their partner is standing in the doorway saying – “let’s go, we’re late…” - and the answer “No” really does cover what they want to relay anyway, so they key it in.

However the person reading that response may take it to mean that you are being unnecessarily rude, curt or trying to fling them off – simply because when they read the reply they were having a “bad hair day” or something.

In a longer response, and simply for the sake of an economy of words – a clear, concise, straight to the point answer may be taken again as rude, abrupt and insensitive, depending on whether you agree or disagree with the other person’s viewpoint, depending on whether you are already in a frame of mind that no matter what is posted – it’s just got to be wrong – or – once again, depending on if you’re having a “bad hair day”.

Consequently, the response one gives may be “in kind” – and set off a snowball effect that is difficult to get under control – if ever.

As for the “contents” of the posts – any discussion with opposing viewpoints will have conflicting opinions and automatically people’s “sensitivity radar” is turned on and they may either “detect” something that really isn’t there, or that is only there because of how they are able or choose to receive it.

There are some things we *can *control and are responsible for – name calling/labeling and speaking for the other person as to what they think or more to the point, what we think they think - are some obvious ones.

Occasionally – there will be responses where the anger, disgust or frustration of the other poster will be very obvious and explicit, where there is no doubt at all about how they are feeling – it happens to all of us. But to read into the majority of posts something that isn’t there – is our own responsibility, based on our own state of mind.

We’ve all been there guanophore – on both sides of the fence.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
I am already a part of it.
Praise Jesus!

guanophore:
You are, indeed. For some reason you feel a need to tear and rend the garment or the person of that Holy Bride.

Depends on what Holy Bride you are referring too.

 

[Leeann]

Can we now get back to some questions that weren’t answered? Anyone???

284
**Originally Posted by Leeann **

Indicating two things.

One – He (the Pope) has already separated Mary from Jesus, as He is praying to her, directly, and Two – He is totally unaware that Jesus is approachable and willing and able to hear and help him (us) in times of need…as he states as he prays to her – “we will not know to whom to turn”.

Response guanophore:
No, on both counts.

What then would it indicate?

284

Originally Posted by Leeann
The Pope is directly praying to Mary – claiming that “we will not know to whom to turn”.

Response guanophore:
That is not what he means. Jesus is Peace itself, the Prince of Peace. This is why Mary is called Queen of Peace. Her desire for peace on earth is an expression of His. Everything about Mary flows from Christ. We, too, are to be peacemakers.

How does this response above have anything at all to do with the question I posed and this excerpt of the my quote that you posted above?

284
Originally Posted by Leeann
That is why I ask – would the Apostles have stood beside him and having heard this, kept silent – or would they instruct him, in his despair and time of need to “hang up” and “call direct” to the one that they know can handle all things?

Response guanophore:
I am confident that the Pope was standing amidst the Apostles when he prayed this prayer. We believe that we are surrounded by the great cloud of witnesses.

Again that doesn’t answer the question posed guanophore, at least not on this posting.

284
Originally Posted by Leeann
It is because of what He has done for us, that we are able to go directly to HIM and through HIM know with confidence that all our needs and requests will be heard and addressed according to His will.

Response guanophore:

Yes.

It is this confidence that Mary expresses at the wedding. She has complete confidence that He will fix the problem. She does not know how, but that does not matter to her. She tells the servants “do whatever He tells you”, because after years of practice, she had learned this.

Mary was indeed a very wise women then, wasn’t she?

Why then don’t you follow what she says – “do whatever **He **tells you.”

He tells us to “come to Him, all those who are weary and in need of rest” –** He tells us
“to pray to the Father, in His name” – He **tells us “ to knock and the door will be open”……

The point I’m making, is if your focus is centered on** Him **directly in the first place,there is no need to ever have to pray to someone else and say:
“we will not know to whom to turn”, as those do, who pray to Mary.

The question being: Why then don’t you follow what she says – “do whatever **He **tells you.” ?

284

Originally Posted by guanophore
Are you tellling me that you believe in a gospel that separates Mary and the Apostles from Christ?

**Response Posted by Leeann **
I’m telling you that the **“gospel message” **that Jesus and the Apostles taught and preached for the salvation of all mankind, puts forth what is necessary for their salvation and what they must believe in. That was **their doctrine **– no Marian dogmas that people must believe in.

Response guanophore:
Ok. Those who have received the faith of the Apostles have not found it necessary to take this out.

Response Leeann:
Not necessary to take “what” out…. ???

 

[guanophore]

My tone and attitude?

I can’t answer that….as I don’t consider myself “hostile”.

Depending on your mood guanophore?

I believe that you may not realize how your sarcasm comes across. No, it is not my “mood”. In reviewing your posts, I find that I am not the only one that has noticed this.

Leeann, I can “feel” your conviction in your trust in God at the same time I can “feel” a certain passion and anger or resentment for The Catholic Church. I present that you are misdirecting your passions here.

I really think you are getting yourself worked up over nothing important on this topic.

Observe or consider too, that some of the emotion and frustration you are directing here at the Church is really more directed at God. The Church can not change God’s words nor His ways. No human can possibly empathize with just how offensive original sin is to the eternal God. What may seem unjust to us - is simply not our place to judge. That is God’s domain and His ways are His ways - not our ways. We trust and we hope.

God Bless,
James

Maybe others can see things about you that you do not see in yourself?

 

[Leeann]

I believe that you may not realize how your sarcasm comes across. No, it is not my “mood”. In reviewing your posts, I find that I am not the only one that has noticed this.

Maybe others can see things about you that you do not see in yourself?

Yes guanophore - as I have stated - **we all **would benefit from taking a good, hard, look at ourselves - all of us.

And I know for certain that others do not see me as I see myself - and vice versa - , however that has little to do with the topic of this thread.

 

[guanophore]

Yes guanophore - as I have stated - **we all **would benefit from taking a good, hard, look at ourselves - all of us.

And I know for certain that others do not see me as I see myself - and vice versa - , however that has little to do with the topic of this thread.

As you pointed out, these discussions always end up on the issue of authority. YOu agree that Christ authorized His apostles. Do you believe that they passed on this authority?

You repeatedly state that the Catholic Church of today is not recognizable as the one in the NT. Do you say this because some members of the Church has abused their “authority”?

Many people who have been abused by authority subsequently have difficulty with authority figures, especially those that misbehave.

 

[Leeann]

As you pointed out, these discussions always end up on the issue of authority. YOu agree that Christ authorized His apostles. Do you believe that they passed on this authority?

You repeatedly state that the Catholic Church of today is not recognizable as the one in the NT. Do you say this because some members of the Church has abused their “authority”?

Many people who have been abused by authority subsequently have difficulty with authority figures, especially those that misbehave.

Already answered in Post 247

posted by Leeann #247:

“*This only applies if one believes that the Catholic church is the same church that Jesus and His Apostles established.

The same church that follows His and their teachings of the “gospel message” with no additional conditions attached to the message of salvation that they preached (such as the necessity of being a member to ONE particular church in order to obtain salvation).

Or for the need to believe and adhere to new doctrines/dogmas “attached” to that pure “gospel message”, that would in any way dilute or take the focus away from Him or the His blood sacrifice for all mankind. (Marian theology and dogmas).

If it is not – then it is not the same church established and loved by Jesus and His Apostles*.”

Now - would you be able to elaborate on the following questions that were asked:

Post 284
Originally Posted by Leeann

Indicating two things.

One – He (the Pope) has already separated Mary from Jesus, as He is praying to her, directly, and Two – He is totally unaware that Jesus is approachable and willing and able to hear and help him (us) in times of need…as he states as he prays to her – “we will not know to whom to turn”.

Response guanophore:
No, on both counts.

What then would it indicate?

**Post 284
Originally Posted by Leeann **
The Pope is directly praying to Mary – claiming that “we will not know to whom to turn”.

Response guanophore:
That is not what he means. Jesus is Peace itself, the Prince of Peace. This is why Mary is called Queen of Peace. Her desire for peace on earth is an expression of His. Everything about Mary flows from Christ. We, too, are to be peacemakers.

How does this response above have anything at all to do with the question I posed and this excerpt of the my quote that you posted above?

**284
Originally Posted by Leeann **
It is because of what He has done for us, that we are able to go directly to HIM and through HIM know with confidence that all our needs and requests will be heard and addressed according to His will.

Response guanophore:

Yes.

It is this confidence that Mary expresses at the wedding. She has complete confidence that He will fix the problem. She does not know how, but that does not matter to her. She tells the servants “do whatever He tells you”, because after years of practice, she had learned this.

Mary was indeed a very wise women then, wasn’t she?

Why then don’t you follow what she says – “do whatever He tells you.”

He tells us to “come to Him, all those who are weary and in need of rest” – He tells us
“to pray to the Father, in His name” – He tells us “ to knock and the door will be open”……

The point I’m making, is if your focus is centered on Him directly in the first place,there is no need to ever have to pray to someone else and say:
“we will not know to whom to turn”, as those do, who pray to Mary.

The question being: Why then don’t you follow what she says – “do whatever He tells you.” ?

 

[guanophore]

Now - would you be able to elaborate on the following questions that were asked:

I am curious why you find it necessary to analyze the personal prayer life of others.

What then would it indicate?

That he has a personal devotion to Mary, and believes that she has the ear of her Divine Son. That he believes that her heart is completely consecrated to Him, and that His will is done in her life, in heaven, as on earth.

How does this response above have anything at all to do with the question I posed and this excerpt of the my quote that you posted above?

I thought you were objecting to his addressing of her as Queen of Peace.

Mary was indeed a very wise women then, wasn’t she?

I don’t know about that. He praised her for her obedience above all.
Leeann;4342792:

Why then don’t you follow what she says – “do whatever He tells you.”

He tells us to “come to Him, all those who are weary and in need of rest” – He tells us
“to pray to the Father, in His name” – He tells us “ to knock and the door will be open”……

The point I’m making, is if your focus is centered on Him directly in the first place,there is no need to ever have to pray to someone else and say:
“we will not know to whom to turn”, as those do, who pray to Mary.

Well, ok. I suggest you not do it, then. however, it might be inappropriate to judge others by yourself.

The question being: Why then don’t you follow what she says – “do whatever He tells you.” ?

It seems you are assuming that He never told His disciples to intercede for one another, help one another, or bring anyone else to God.

If you don’t wish to pray the prayers, don’t pray them. Why criticize others that do? Have you never read the parable of the wheat and the tares?

 

[Leeann]

I am curious why you find it necessary to analyze the personal prayer life of others.

That he has a personal devotion to Mary, and believes that she has the ear of her Divine Son. That he believes that her heart is completely consecrated to Him, and that His will is done in her life, in heaven, as on earth.

I thought you were objecting to his addressing of her as Queen of Peace.

I don’t know about that. He praised her for her obedience above all.

Well, ok. I suggest you not do it, then. however, it might be inappropriate to judge others by yourself.

It seems you are assuming that He never told His disciples to intercede for one another, help one another, or bring anyone else to God.

If you don’t wish to pray the prayers, don’t pray them. Why criticize others that do? Have you never read the parable of the wheat and the tares?

guanophore, it is obvious that either you can’t or don’t want to directly address the questions posed, and that’s okay.

I have started a complete new thread based on the question about the Pope’s prayer and who the Apostles would point him too.

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut and insights.God Bless.

 

[guanophore]

guanophore, it is obvious that either you can’t or don’t want to directly address the questions posed, and that’s okay.

I have started a complete new thread based on the question about the Pope’s prayer and who the Apostles would point him too.

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut and insights.God Bless.

I suppose you are right. I am not able to read the Pope’s mind, or his heart, so I am not in a very good position (as you seem to see yourself) to bring him to judgement and condemn him for his prayers.

 

[Leeann]

I suppose you are right. I am not able to read the Pope’s mind, or his heart, so I am not in a very good position (as you seem to see yourself) to bring him to judgement and condemn him for his prayers.

God Bless.

 

[justasking4]

I suppose you are right. I am not able to read the Pope’s mind, or his heart, so I am not in a very good position (as you seem to see yourself) to bring him to judgement and condemn him for his prayers.

How is it you can read other people’ mind over the net but you can’t use that same power to read the pope’s mind? :banghead: