Protestants: Do you believe that Christ is truly present in the communion elements of bread and wine?

[Realcatholicgk]

Hi Ben,

This is precisely the point that I have made in two posts in this thread. And yet twice NonCath has raised the same argument as if no one has actually addressed his question.
**
It was made many more then just two times by you dear! **

Either he isn’t reading our replies or there is someone else answering for him because going by the posts of Non Catholic today, he seems to have just arrived on the thread today and have not read what has transpired at all.

**He isn’t reading the entire post, unless you “remind him” I think too many people are attacking him, he can’t keep up! Can you? **

Why else would he keep posting the same thing over and over again when it has already been debunked.
**
Maybe he is trying to make it true by repetition?

God Bless **

 

[benedictus2]

Not likely… more likely is that he has only this one argument and is more interested in arguing against the Catholic teaching than actually finding and following the truth regardless of where it leads.

This might in a weird sort of way be a form of “vain repetition” (though not in prayer obviously), but with the same intention as Jesus mentions. Matthew 6:7 “… For they think that in their much speaking they may be heard.” No offense intended…

But what I don’t get is the re-hashing of arguments. I mean to bring up a point several times when said point has been addressed many times over just does not make sense.

Today in particular, his arguments were the ones he raised at the beginning of this thread and people have addressed those already. But instead of rebuttng these posts all he does is raise the same argument again.

That is why I think there is someone else posting on his behalf.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, NonCatholic,

Wow! There certainly has been a lot said - and after re-reading several of the posts, I really do get the impression that the responses to your arguments just have either not been read or simply ignored. That isn’t really helpful to honest dialogue.

Let me try my hand - and, I would appreciate a response

…which was not even implemented when Jesus was speaking in John 6, which is what is used out of context to somehow bring into the Lords Supper.

This is a guess, but, I think most of us have bought computers and brought them home in their original boxes. The ones that I have opened always had the directions on top - first thing you see! Now there is are a couple of reasons for this: the company wants you to set up the equipment the way it was designed, it wants to do all possible so that you can benefit from this machine and … probably reduce the number of really unnecessary calls to Customer Service!

One way to look at John 6 is like a set of directions.

Yep… If you want eternal life, this is what you must do!!!

Now maybe ‘directions’ is a poor example for John 6 - so, how about a comparisson between this Scripture and an oriental restaurant menu where you can pick an item from Coumn “A” and something else fom Column “B”? It is not set up that way, either. There really isn’t any picking or choosing what you will take from the Message of Christ. It really is a package - and, as you may have guessed - that package of Faith is the CC.

Why?

Just look at the frailty of humanity - plagued with competing passions and unruly tempraments, failing memories and galloping egos - well - just the kind of garden for planting envy,anarchy, division, and competition. The CC is totally united on the Real Presence. The multitude of Protestant religions are all over the board on this single issue. This is telling in and of itself.

In my opinon, if you are honest, it will tell you something, too.

God bless

 

[NonCatholic]

Realcatholicgk:
Typical for you, you can only name call and cannot support your position, if that is what it is, by Scripture. I suspect you read the Scripture rarely and when you do you can’t understand it…typical for someone who has no defense or leg to stand on.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Hi, NonCatholic,

Wow! There certainly has been a lot said - and after re-reading several of the posts, I really do get the impression that the responses to your arguments just have either not been read or simply ignored. That isn’t really helpful to honest dialogue.

Let me try my hand - and, I would appreciate a response

This is a guess, but, I think most of us have bought computers and brought them home in their original boxes. The ones that I have opened always had the directions on top - first thing you see! Now there is are a couple of reasons for this: the company wants you to set up the equipment the way it was designed, it wants to do all possible so that you can benefit from this machine and … probably reduce the number of really unnecessary calls to Customer Service!

One way to look at John 6 is like a set of directions.

Yep… If you want eternal life, this is what you must do!!!

Now maybe ‘directions’ is a poor example for John 6 - so, how about a comparisson between this Scripture and an oriental restaurant menu where you can pick an item from Coumn “A” and something else fom Column “B”? It is not set up that way, either. There really isn’t any picking or choosing what you will take from the Message of Christ. It really is a package - and, as you may have guessed - that package of Faith is the CC.

Why?

Just look at the frailty of humanity - plagued with competing passions and unruly tempraments, failing memories and galloping egos - well - just the kind of garden for planting envy,anarchy, division, and competition. The CC is totally united on the Real Presence. The multitude of Protestant religions are all over the board on this single issue. This is telling in and of itself.

In my opinon, if you are honest, it will tell you something, too.

God bless

**
Hi tqualey,

Tom, Not that I disagree with you, I don’t think I do anyway, But I just wanted to ask you. Did your head hurt when you had those thoughts? I know that an analogue is not the same thing as the same thing but I think you lost me in the fortune cookie section of the Chineese menu.

God Bless!**

 

[NonCatholic]

Hi, NonCatholic,

Wow! There certainly has been a lot said - and after re-reading several of the posts, I really do get the impression that the responses to your arguments just have either not been read or simply ignored. That isn’t really helpful to honest dialogue.

Let me try my hand - and, I would appreciate a response

This is a guess, but, I think most of us have bought computers and brought them home in their original boxes. The ones that I have opened always had the directions on top - first thing you see! Now there is are a couple of reasons for this: the company wants you to set up the equipment the way it was designed, it wants to do all possible so that you can benefit from this machine and … probably reduce the number of really unnecessary calls to Customer Service!

One way to look at John 6 is like a set of directions.

Perhaps a good analogy, but misguided. Jesus made the product, then gave us direction…not as you put it made direction, then put a product around it.

Just look at the frailty of humanity - plagued with competing passions and unruly tempraments, failing memories and galloping egos - well - just the kind of garden for planting envy,anarchy, division, and competition. The CC is totally united on the Real Presence. The multitude of Protestant religions are all over the board on this single issue. This is telling in and of itself.

United does not make it truth, at one time the many that were united believed the earth was flat at one time.

 

[NonCatholic]

The difference is that gravity existed prior to Newton describing and explaining it. The canon did not. There were 400+ documents floating around, claiming to be inspired. The church sifted these, and selected 27 books to include in the NT. Prior to that, the NT did not exist. Granted, the scripture was inspired as soon as it was written, but the discernment of which documents were inspired and which were not Jesus worked through the CHurch.

Which council(s) made the cannons and who were the attendees? By the way the Word was “In the beginning”.

Do you think it fell out of the sky?

Well yes, from the 3rd heaven.

Well, we read it differently, don’t we?
What if He did? How would that change your beliefs?

It would destroy my beliefs.

It is not arrogance, NC. The working of the HS through humans is not a cause for boasting.

It is just a statement of fact. I doubt God will see it that way, but we’ll all know one day.

 

[Matariel]

Typical for you, you can only name call and cannot support your position…

The only name-calling I’ve see as of yet has come from you, my friend.

if that is what it is, by Scripture. I suspect you read the Scripture rarely and when you do you can’t understand it…typical for someone who has no defense or leg to stand on.

Ignorant presumptions and insults… is this what you resort to when you cannot think of a rebuttal? So far, you have offered no rebuttal, and you haven’t responded to my previous post.

 

[NonCatholic]

TOUCHE! :clapping:

Hi Realcatholicgk,

Here is a little request. Can you please try to work out the quoting system.

It is hard to respond to your post when you embed your responses in the post you are replying.

Here is how you do it.

If you want to select sections of a post you type “”" or it will not work.

Thanks Benedictus2, I have my doubts as whether she can follow the directions; I hope I’m proven wrong. Also, guanophore can send a PM with directions as well.

 

[guanophore]

Perhaps a good analogy, but misguided. Jesus made the product, then gave us direction…not as you put it made direction, then put a product around it.

I think what is misguided is your interpretation. Jesus is the Living Bread which came down from heaven. He was present in the flesh some 30 + years before he gave the Bread of Life sermon. In that sermon, He explained how He would give that flesh (produce?) for the life of the world - not symbolic flesh, but actual flesh. He explained how we would come into unity with Him by eating His Body, and drinking His Blood, a scandal to the Jews.

Probably every bit as scandalous as saying “before Abraham was, I am”.

United does not make it truth, at one time the many that were united believed the earth was flat at one time.

You are right, it is the other way around. Those who are in the Truth will be in union.

 

[NonCatholic]

The only name-calling I’ve see as of yet has come from you, my friend.

Ignorant presumptions and insults… is this what you resort to when you cannot think of a rebuttal? So far, you have offered no rebuttal, and you haven’t responded to my previous post.

What’s the post #? No, not ignorant, that would be based on little to no knowledge, this is based on observation. You did not rebut, so i assume I’m correct.

you must be a blind to the name calling and insults as you are to understanding…the…

 

[Matariel]

Which council(s) made the cannons and who were the attendees? By the way the Word was “In the beginning”.

The Word from the beginning is Jesus Christ, not the Bible.

Well yes, from the 3rd heaven.

You’re joking right? You do know that, although inspired, it was written by many different people over a period of thousands of years?

It is just a statement of fact. I doubt God will see it that way, but we’ll all know one day.

God doesn’t want us to just give up and say “we’ll know someday”. He gives us a definitive way to find the truth, and he gives us an infallible, indefectible guardian that will guarantee that the Truth is properly grasped by those who seek it.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, grampben,

Thank you for the reposting of that site on the theology of Zwingli. I have grown rusty in this area…

Huldrych Zwingli. Here is some information on his theology.

Here is a quote that this Wikipedia passage:
“The Marburg Colloquy did not produce anything new in the debate between the two reformers. Neither changed their positions, but it did produce some further developments in their own views. Zwingli, for example, noted that the bread was not mere bread and affirmed terms such as “presence”, “true”, and “sacramental”. However, it was Zwingli and Luther’s differences in their understanding of faith, their Christology, their approach and use of scripture that ultimately made any agreement impossible.”

I found this of interest because Zwingli called Luther the, “First Champion of the Bible” - and both men based their entire theology on the Bible (now, I am not sure if that makes Zwingli the ‘second champion’ - leave that for others to debate! ) The interesting part is that both had such divisions over the Eucharist - and both quoted from the same Bible!

Now, this may not seem strange to some, but the idea that two individuals can get such different and opposing views about Christ from the same Book - well… that is strange for me. So the entire flaw of SS is laid bare by Luther, its founder. There can be no room for two different interpretations - imagine 20,000 Protestant Chruches?

God bless

 

[guanophore]

Which council(s) made the cannons and who were the attendees?

This is an excellent question, and if you are willing to learn the answer to it, perhaps you will stop berating the Catholic Church, at least on this point.

It began with the councils of Hippo and Carthage. The attendees were the bishops, successors of the Apostles. These are those to whom Christ gave the authority to teach, bind, and loose.

By the way the Word was “In the beginning”.

One of the signs of the sin of bibliolatry is confusing the Person of Christ with the Holy Scriptures. The Scriptures did not exist “from the beginning”.

Well yes, from the 3rd heaven.

If you really believe that your bible fell out of the third heaven to earth, then it is no wonder you are so hostile toward the Catholic Church on the idea of the canon of Scripture.

I am really surprised to hear you say this, though, since you seem very reasoned in so many areas. I would not expect that you would be afraid to learn the truth of history.

 It would destroy my beliefs.

Why? Why would the establishment of a visible Body with an authority have to “destroy” your beliefs?

 It is just a statement of fact.

I doubt God will see it that way, but we’ll all know one day.

Well, God knows that He used the Catholic Church to create the NT, so it will be no surprise to Him! Those “men” who were “inspired by the Spirit” were Catholics. They wrote Catholic beliefs for use by Catholics. Later, the Catholic Church used the Apostolic Teachings to sort out which works were spurious, and which were not.

Having God work through oneself is a cause for rejoicing, thankfulness, and humility, not for boasting.

 

[NonCatholic]

I think what is misguided is your interpretation. Jesus is the Living Bread which came down from heaven. He was present in the flesh some 30 + years before he gave the Bread of Life sermon. In that sermon, He explained how He would give that flesh (produce?) for the life of the world - not symbolic flesh, but actual flesh. He explained how we would come into unity with Him by eating His Body, and drinking His Blood, a scandal to the Jews.

Probably every bit as scandalous as saying “before Abraham was, I am”.

You are right, it is the other way around. Those who are in the Truth will be in union.

You overlook John 6:63 in your interpretations.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Perhaps a good analogy, but misguided. Jesus made the product, then gave us direction…not as you put it made direction, then put a product around it.

United does not make it truth, at one time the many that were united believed the earth was flat at one time.

**
Hi Non,

You do realize that you are always saying things that aren’t true, don’t you? You really are very ignorant! Please get educated. It really hurts your creditability to speak so foolishly. The flat earth theory is a fairy tale just like many of your Protestant beliefs! The modern belief that especially medieval Christianity believed in a flat earth has been referred to as The Myth of the Flat Earth. In 1945, it was listed by the Historical Association (of Britain) as the second of 20 in a pamphlet on common errors in history. Recent scholarship confirms that since about the 3rd century BC, virtually no educated person in Western civilization believed in a flat Earth. The false view that people of the Middle Ages believed that the Earth was flat is said to have entered the popular imagination in the 19th century, thanks largely to the publication of Washington Irving’s fantasy The Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus in 1828.

Want real science? This is “real” science like the Catholic church is the real church. God is amazing. he knew that some would need to "see’ to believe:

CORE OF THE WHIRLPOOL GALAXY: The Whirlpool Galaxy is one of the furthest galaxies able to be viewed by the Hubbell Telescope. Phote taken in 2002.

LAMININ: a Protein Molecule; which is vital to insure overall body structures hold together; it may only be seen through an electron microscope. Diagram

**

 

[NonCatholic]

This is an excellent question, and if you are willing to learn the answer to it, perhaps you will stop berating the Catholic Church, at least on this point.

It began with the councils of Hippo and Carthage. The attendees were the bishops, successors of the Apostles. These are those to whom Christ gave the authority to teach, bind, and loose.

One of the signs of the sin of bibliolatry is confusing the Person of Christ with the Holy Scriptures. The Scriptures did not exist “from the beginning”.

If the Scripture is inspired and infallible by God and from God, then it is part of God. Jesus is the Word, which became flesh and dwelt among men. He is the very fulfillment, you cannot separate the Word from the Word…can you?

If you really believe that your bible fell out of the third heaven to earth, then it is no wonder you are so hostile toward the Catholic Church on the idea of the canon of Scripture.

I am really surprised to hear you say this, though, since you seem very reasoned in so many areas. I would not expect that you would be afraid to learn the truth of history.

Not fell, but came from God who dwells in the 3rd heaven…you knew what I meant.

Why? Why would the establishment of a visible Body with an authority have to “destroy” your beliefs?

Would be contrary to the teaching of Scripture.

Well, God knows that He used the Catholic Church to create the NT, so it will be no surprise to Him! Those “men” who were “inspired by the Spirit” were Catholics.

What is your proof to this unbiblical claim? The reason those outside of the Catholic system define the church as invisible is because you cannot see the elect versus the non elect. This is similar to the parable of the tares and the wheat, you can’t tell the difference until God separates the two. One reason you can’t tell is because some of those tares turn out to be wheat. Separation of the goats from the sheep is another Biblical example. So for your Church to claim it as the visible body is contrary to Scripture.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Hi, grampben,

Thank you for the reposting of that site on the theology of Zwingli. I have grown rusty in this area…

Here is a quote that this Wikipedia passage:
“The Marburg Colloquy did not produce anything new in the debate between the two reformers. Neither changed their positions, but it did produce some further developments in their own views. Zwingli, for example, noted that the bread was not mere bread and affirmed terms such as “presence”, “true”, and “sacramental”. However, it was Zwingli and Luther’s differences in their understanding of faith, their Christology, their approach and use of scripture that ultimately made any agreement impossible.”

I found this of interest because Zwingli called Luther the, “First Champion of the Bible” - and both men based their entire theology on the Bible (now, I am not sure if that makes Zwingli the ‘second champion’ - leave that for others to debate! ) The interesting part is that both had such divisions over the Eucharist - and both quoted from the same Bible!

Now, this may not seem strange to some, but the idea that two individuals can get such different and opposing views about Christ from the same Book - well… that is strange for me. So the entire flaw of SS is laid bare by Luther, its founder. There can be no room for two different interpretations - imagine 20,000 Protestant Chruches?

God bless

**
Hi tqualey,

Tom, since the beginning Protestants have divided and multiplied. Before 1517AD, there was only One Christian Church . We say “ONE”, with several different sects. (These 212 authentic churches are still firmly together even today! United through aposolic succession and beliefs.)
While some were attempting to right some wrong practices in the Church, the devil saw this as a change to infecte the christian church and steal souls from the real church.

Foolishly, today there are 33,000 counterfeit denominations, and non-denominations with 28,000 sub denominations, and various associations, conferences, conventions, fellowships, groups, sect, cults and unions. All 61,000 having 1,375 doctrines and dogmas They all partially agree with the CC and all partially disagree with the CC. So we have to ask who the heck is right? The church that has taught only the truth for 2,000 years refusing to compromise the truth and remained faithful to Jesus teachings,or 61,000 false groups teaching over 1,375 distorted doctrines.

The answer seems so simple to me.

God Bless**

 

[NonCatholic]

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[NonCatholic]

We should probably cut non catholic some slack; He is being inundated with information! I would definitely be a little overwhelmed, if I were in his shoes.

NonCatholic, I really want to understand your rationale. However, I’m just not getting it. I was a Lutheran for a time, and I didn’t get it then, either, when my fellow Christians delineated in the same manner as you do. If Jesus didn’t mean what He said when He said, you must eat my flesh --drink my blood, why did He say it? He could have worded it or re-worded it differently, to keep His staunch followers up to that point, from walking away; why didn’t He do that; I’m confused.

If those words aren’t referring to the Eucharist, to what or whom are they referring? Our English word Eucharist is a transliteration, not a translation, of the Greek word. It was simply brought over, unchanged into English. It is in the bible; Paul says, “when Jesus had given thanks and broken the bread….” The words “had given thanks” translate the verb form of the word Eucharist. Eucharisteo means to give thanks. Eucharist means thankfulness or thanksgiving. We thank Jesus for His Sacrifice on Calvary --at the Mass. The Eucharist is the Essence of the Mass; It’s all about remembering what Jesus did for ALL, 2000 years ago, and as Cinette said, meditation and prayer is crucial to grasping this ineffable Mystery.

God sent Christ to die and deliver us from our sins. (Romans 5.8.) Before His death, He commanded His disciples to partake of the supper in His
remembrance. (Matthew 26.26-28; Mark 14.22-25; Luke 22.14-19.) “And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, ‘Take, eat; this is My body.’ And He took the cup, and gave thanks and gave it to them, saying, 'Drink ye all of it; for this is My blood of the New Testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26.26-28.) Note: All the four gospels give the same account, and in Luke 22.19, Jesus said, “This do in remembrance of me.” Also, the apostle Paul wrote to the church at Corinth concerning the Lord’s Supper, when he heard they were partaking of it improperly. (1 Corinthians 11.20-34.) In verse 23 it reads: “For I have received from the Lord, that which I also delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus Christ the same night in which He was betrayed, took bread, and when He had given thanks, He brake it and said, 'Take, eat; this is My body which was broken for you. This do in remembrance of Me.”

**John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

Even though you see; yet you do not believe.**

I know our flesh profits nothing, but does Jesus’ Flesh profit nothing as well? Jesus’ flesh is our ticket home; wouldn’t you agree?

The words Jesus was speaking were/are spirit, not carnal. --yuk! The words --If we eat His Mystical Body and drink His Mystical Blood are the words that yield eternal life) –

This passage:

“Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood, abide in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father so whoever eats me will live because of me.”
This passage

“Abide in me as I abide in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing.”

=

Eating and drinking Jesus’ Mystical Flesh and Mystical Blood, not carnal flesh and blood (gross) --at Mass --which is a public celebration of the Eucharist, [just as they did in the O.T. with ineffectual animals sacrifice, which were nothing more than a type (see typology) of the only sacrifice that can truly SAVE us] -------allows ALL, if they chose --to Mystically abide in (Him) as He abides in us.

Even if you believe Jesus was speaking in metaphor, you should still eat the bread and drink the cup; in doing so, you do something that is inherently natural; you remember His sacrifice by doing what He commanded:

This is my body… This is my blood… Each time you eat this bread and drink this cup, you are proclaiming the death of the Lord Jesus. 1 Cor 11:23-26

When I belonged to one of the Lutheran churches, this was never done; recalling these words was almost never done; occasionally they would offer bread and wine, but it seemed so hollow, almost as if it was insignificant. If Jesus gives a command, e.g. baptize in the name of the father…or eat this bread and drink this cup, you are proclaiming the death of the Lord Jesus, we should probably obey Him; don’t you think?

God bless NonCatholic and let us all pray for all the Non-Christians, e.g. atheists and agnostics!

You are not separating the carnal from the spiritual, the mortal from the immortal. Everyone overlooks two things. 1) the term “eat”, euphemism, in the Jewish mind would be an intense understanding of something, to be immersed into it to the point where eating and drinking it day and night. Like we are told to do in learning the Bible, which most people do not. 2) What is the way to salvation? a heart of repentance, believing on the Lord by faith through Christ. If you look at John 6 the terms of believe, coming to , behold are used, then Jesus already knows who will and won’t believe and so he makes the statement even harder for them to believe…kind of like let’s get rid of all these unbelievers right now so I’ll put it another way that they could never handle. The remainder understood and believed and if for no other reason, Jesus tells us the manner in which He spoke…in spirit and truth.