Protestants: Do you believe that Christ is truly present in the communion elements of bread and wine?

[guanophore]

You are not separating the carnal from the spiritual, the mortal from the immortal. Everyone overlooks two things. 1) the term “eat”, euphemism, in the Jewish mind would be an intense understanding of something, to be immersed into it to the point where eating and drinking it day and night. Like we are told to do in learning the Bible, which most people do not.

Well, it makes a good story. However, when this word is used metaphorically in Jewish and first century culture, it means to chew and gnaw on a persons reputation. It is equal to how one would define slander and calumny today.

So, if we consider the use of the term a metaphor, then Jesus is saying “you cannot have life within you unless you tear and rip at my reputation”. I think we will both agree this is not His meaning.

2) What is the way to salvation?  a heart of repentance, believing on the Lord by faith through Christ.  If you look at John 6 the terms of believe, coming to , behold are used, then Jesus already knows who will and won't believe and so he makes the statement even harder for them to believe..kind of like let's get rid of all these unbelievers right now so I'll put it another way that they could never handle.

Yes, this is one of the “hard sayings” of Christ. However, He is not doing this for some kind of mental or social exerise. He is telling them an eternal truth that they are not able to accept.

Also, you have not explained why He, the God of Heaven and earth, allowed the Apostles to misunderstand Him, and was unable to open their minds to see what He meant! THey took Him literally, and they passed this literal understanding to their disciples and successors (the bishops).

The remainder understood and believed and if for no other reason, Jesus tells us the manner in which He spoke..in spirit and truth.

Yes, and the Apostles accepted that this was a spiritual truth that it was not possible for their minds to apprehend.

 

[Bill_Pick]

You are not separating the carnal from the spiritual, the mortal from the immortal. Everyone overlooks two things. 1) the term “eat”, euphemism, in the Jewish mind would be an intense understanding of something, to be immersed into it to the point where eating and drinking it day and night. Like we are told to do in learning the Bible, which most people do not. 2) What is the way to salvation? a heart of repentance, believing on the Lord by faith through Christ. If you look at John 6 the terms of believe, coming to , behold are used, then Jesus already knows who will and won’t believe and so he makes the statement even harder for them to believe…kind of like let’s get rid of all these unbelievers right now so I’ll put it another way that they could never handle. The remainder understood and believed and if for no other reason, Jesus tells us the manner in which He spoke…in spirit and truth.

non-cathloic “Have they become your enemy by telling you the truth?”
Gal 4:16

 

[Realcatholicgk]

If the Scripture is inspired and infallible by God and from God, then it is part of God.

**

Hi Non,
The scriptures are inspired and their teachings as interpreted by the Church, its author are infallible. Anything else you make up is only true in your distorted mind! It isn’t real just like the voices aren’t real! **

Jesus is the Word, which became flesh and dwelt among men. He is the very fulfillment, you cannot separate the Word from the Word…can you?

**Yes, You can actually separate the WORD from words. Just like you can separate believers from Jesus’ real church. All it takes is Lies, like the ones you attempt to spread. You don’t believe in Jesus nor His words. Eat my Body, Drink My blood! That makes you a hypocrite doesn’t it? **

Not fell, but came from God who dwells in the 3rd heaven…you knew what I meant.

**Did the voices tell you the bible “came” from the third heaven? Was it in1611 A.D? Did UPS deleiver it? Do you mean all 100 corrupt verions of the KJV all came from God? He keeps changing his mind?

Click On: God’s Latest Edition Delivered From 3rd Heaven Just For Potestants**

You did know that The NKJV removed the word “Lord” 66 times! It removed the word God 51 times! It removed the word “heaven” 50 times! In just the New Testament alone the NKJV removes 2.289 words from the corrupted old KJV! The original JKV removed 7 entire books and changed 4,375 words and untold amount of verses from sacred scripture. The NKJV made over 100,000 word changes! It goes to prove that the devil is hard ar work corrupting God’s word used my his false churches! Thomas Nelson Publishers have the audacity to claim in an ad for the NKJV that “NOTHING HAS BEEN CHANGED except to make the original meaning clearer.” Even Protestants are starting to realize that the devil is very active in the Protestant groups! 21 new groups every month and none getting closer to the Real church, the RCC!

Would be contrary to the teaching of Scripture.
**
Oh It would? Hmmm Christ instituted His Church as a means of salvation to continue His mission and apply his work of redemption to souls throughout the ages until the consummation of the world (Matt 28:20). This Church is a visible organization: “A city built on a hill cannot be hid” (St. Matt. 5, 14). Being visible, Christ’s Church possesses a hierarchical authority to govern it (St. Luke 6, 13), which is invested with His own mission (St. John 20, 21) to teach (St. Matt. 28, 20) to rule (St. Matt. 18, 17-18) and to sanctify the faithful (St. John 15, 16).

This same Church, Christ founded upon Peter, the prince of the apostles in order that he (and his successors) may be the visible representative of Christ saying:

“And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build My Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven, and whatsoever You shall bind on earth, it shall bound also in heaven: and whatsoever Thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be Bound also in heaven: and whatsoever Thou shalt loose on earth, It shall be bound in heaven.” - MATHEW 16:18 -19

Although the objections to these clear words of Christ are numerous because of the implications it bestows upon Christians to be subject to the Roman Pontiff satan forces his followers to deny the truth. Great Job! **

What is your proof to this unbiblical claim? The reason those outside of the Catholic system define the church as invisible is because you cannot see the elect versus the non elect. This is similar to the parable of the tares and the wheat, you can’t tell the difference until God separates the two. One reason you can’t tell is because some of those tares turn out to be wheat. Separation of the goats from the sheep is another Biblical example. So for your Church to claim it as the visible body is contrary to Scripture.
**
They followed Christ they were christians they ate Jesus Body and drank His blood. They are real christians therefore they were “Catholic” The way you can tell is real easy. They knew they were eating the Body and drinking the blood of Jesus. They knew that Jesus didn’t lie to them when he commanded them to do that! 1,500 years later satan forced his followers to deny the truth so he could keep their souls from salvation**.

 

[tqualey]

Hi Realcatholicgk,

How thoughtful of you to inquire about my health…

**
Hi tqualey,

Tom, Not that I disagree with you, I don’t think I do anyway, But I just wanted to ask you. Did your head hurt when you had those thoughts? I know that an analogue is not the same thing as the same thing but I think you lost me in the fortune cookie section of the Chineese menu. God Bless!**

Actually, I was feeling just great when I wrote this. And, yourself - how did you do when you read it …? May I recommed the green tea…

God bless

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

You are not separating the carnal from the spiritual, the mortal from the immortal. Everyone overlooks two things. 1) the term “eat”, euphemism, in the Jewish mind would be an intense understanding of something, to be immersed into it to the point where eating and drinking it day and night. Like we are told to do in learning the Bible, which most people do not. 2) What is the way to salvation? a heart of repentance, believing on the Lord by faith through Christ. If you look at John 6 the terms of believe, coming to , behold are used, then Jesus already knows who will and won’t believe and so he makes the statement even harder for them to believe…kind of like let’s get rid of all these unbelievers right now so I’ll put it another way that they could never handle. The remainder understood and believed and if for no other reason, Jesus tells us the manner in which He spoke…in spirit and truth.

ST. John of Damascene; “You ask how the bread becomes the Body of Christ, and the wine… the Blood of Christ. I shall tell you; the Holy Spirit comes upon them and accomplishes what surpasses every word and thought… Let it be enough for you to understand that it is by the Holy Spirit, just as it was of the Holy Virgin and by the Holy Spirit that the Lord, through and in himself, took flesh.”

1Corinthian 2: 1 When I came to you, brothers, proclaiming the mystery of God, 1 I did not come with sublimity of words or of wisdom. 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness 2 and fear and much trembling, 4 and my message and my proclamation were not with persuasive (words of) wisdom, 3 but with a demonstration of spirit and power, 5 so that your faith might rest not on human wisdom but on the power of God. 6 Yet we do speak a wisdom to those who are mature, but not a wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age who are passing away. 7 Rather, we speak God’s wisdom, 5 mysterious, hidden, which God predetermined before the ages for our glory,

9 But as it is written: **“What eye has not seen, and ear has not heard, and what has not entered the human heart, what God has prepared for those who love him,” 10 this God has revealed to us through the Spirit.For the Spirit scrutinizes everything, even the depths of God. **

11 Among human beings, who knows what pertains to a person except the spirit of the person that is within? Similarly, no one knows what pertains to God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit that is from God, so that we may understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we speak about them not with words taught by human wisdom, but with words taught by the Spirit, describing spiritual realities in spiritual terms. 7

14 Now the natural person 8 does not accept what pertains to the Spirit of God, for to him it is foolishness, and he cannot understand it, **because it is judged spiritually. 15 The spiritual person, however, can judge everything but is not subject to judgment 9 by anyone. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to counsel him?” But we have the mind of Christ. **

 

[tqualey]

Hi, NonCatholic,

Perhaps a good analogy, but misguided. Jesus made the product, then gave us direction…not as you put it made direction, then put a product around it.

Glad you liked the analogy - now, tell me, how is it misguded?

Jesus’ message of the Eucharist, contained in John 6, preceeded His final trip into Jerusalem for the Passover - when He celebrated the Last Supper - and instituted the Eucharist - changing the substance of common bread and wine into His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. Christ also gave His Apostles the Power to do this when He told them to “Do this in memory of Me.”- and instituted the priesthood.

So, we have the explanation (directions?) that preceeded the actual event (Last Supper) Basically, we were instructed on what THIS IS first and given IT. Would it have made better sense to you to give you something first and then explain it? Maybe? But the issue is the method of delivery what chosen by God from all eternity - so, I think it best to go with His Plan.

United does not make it truth, at one time the many that were united believed the earth was flat at one time.

This thought deserves some special attention.

Our knowledge of the scientific is always changing based on those who contribute to the body of knowledge. At one time there were those who did think the earth was flat (in fact there is a Flat Earth Society today… here is a link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_Society ) But, such discoveries that are common place in science are not present in our faith in God. For example:

No matter the resolution developed for the Hubble Telescope - it will never ‘see’ God.

No amount of analysis on the Consecrated Host will reveal the blood type of Christ.

Nothing in the discovered ancient manuscripts has proven that God does not exist or that the Sacred Writers were frauds.

If ‘unity’ does not at least give a hint about truth - what position is disunity in? Seriously - Protestants are really all over the board when it comes to addressing John 6 - and how it matches up with Christ telling His Apostles to eat His Flesh and Drink His Blood as recorded by Matthew, Mark and Luke.

Benedictus2 challenged you (and by extension, any Protestant) to explain from Scripture why there were those who walked away from Christ in John 6. The issue is still on the table. To dismiss this Mystery as just an anlalogy - then why did it offend the Jews who called it a “…hard saying…”? In essence, they called Him crazy - and even after witnessing the multiplication of the loaves and fishes - walked away! They were not going to associate themselves with a crazy Man.

Now, this is just a theory…but prior to the 16th century - ordained priests were necessary to consecrate bread and wine into the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. (Actually, they are still necessary…but, I just need to stay focused! )These were priests of the CC - there were no ‘mail-order’ divinity schools. As such, the CC was necessary. Now, some of the ‘reformers’ (e.g., Zwingli) who threw out the meaning of Christ’s Words in the Eucharist - “It is just a memorial service - no more… so, we no longer need priests, which means we do not need the CC”.

Given a complicated political history - and that money would be staying in the country instead of going to Rome - that was all that was needed to get this heresy off and running. My guess is that getting rid of the authority given to Peter and his Successors - was at the heart of everything. Sort of like a variation on Matt 21: 33-42 where the evil tenants thought they get the vineyard by changing the rules of the lease and killing those they did not agree with. It did not turn out well for this group.

Looking forward to hearing back from you.

 

[Protestant101]

That IS what he said.

You and your cohorts seem so well-satisfied when you “prove” the denigrating remarks you make about your current Protestant “miscreants,” or “reprobates.”

All you are doing is cementing my current beliefs.

 

[Protestant101]

You’re joking right? You do know that, although inspired, it was written by many different people over a period of thousands of years?

What do you mean “although inspired?” I guess this shows why your church feels they can twist a piece of bread to be a Jesus, even when the Bible doesn’t.

The Bible is God’s voice speaking to us, just as surely as though we could hear it with our ears.

 

[Matariel]

What do you mean “although inspired?”

You’re missing my point. I’m saying it* is *inspired, it’s just that he implied it descended straight from Heaven, even though that’s ludicrous. I wasn’t denigrading the Holy Scriptures. And you accuse us of twisting words.

I guess this shows why your Church feels they can twist a piece of bread to be a Jesus, even when the Bible doesn’t.

Actually, Christ and the Apostles said it. The Church just preserved their teaching. It was only 1,500 years later when people started following the man-made teaching of Ultrich Zwingli, the humanist, who invented the “symbolic” communion. It just didn’t fit into his humanistic views.

Too bad alot of Evangelicals follow this tradition of men. :nope:

The Bible is God’s voice speaking to us, just as surely as though we could hear it with our ears.

The Bible is the Scriptures that have been defined by the Church, preserved by the Church, and expounded upon by the Church.

If it wasn’t for the Church’s preservation of the Scriptures, you wouldn’t have your Bible now. You can thank the Church for that.

(Oh, and the fact that they’re the ones who infallibly declared the Canon. )

 

[benedictus2]

Which council(s) made the cannons and who were the attendees? By the way the Word was “In the beginning”.

Are you serious? I have answered that with a link twice yesterday which by the way you refused to read. Here it is again.

http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/timeline_of_how_the_bible_where.htm

And now you ask it again.

Are there two or three of you posting under the user name NonCatholic? The constant re-posting of old questions is really perplexing.

 

[benedictus2]

You’re post to Matariel:" ** You did not rebut, so i assume I’m correct. **

Since you have not rebutted plenty of my posts and plenty of other posts, ergo. we are correct.

 

[benedictus2]

The Word from the beginning is Jesus Christ, not the Bible.

I can’t believe that needs to be explained to a Christian! One would assume that, that is as plain as day.

 

[benedictus2]

If the Scripture is inspired and infallible by God and from God, then it is part of God. Jesus is the Word, which became flesh and dwelt among men. He is the very fulfillment, you cannot separate the Word from the Word…can you?

The Word of God who is in the begining is NOT THE SAME AS THE WRITTEN WORD OF GOD.

That is ELEMENTARY CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY.

 

[benedictus2]

The Bible is God’s voice speaking to us, just as surely as though we could hear it with our ears.

Yes, so let it speak. Let it say what it want’s to say instead of muzzling it and chopping it up the way you do.

Unplug those fingers from your ears so that for once you will actually hear it speak to you.

 

[Matariel]

You and your cohorts seem so well-satisfied when you “prove” the denigrating remarks you make about your current Protestant “miscreants,” or “reprobates.”

Do you just pull things out of thin air? Noöne denigrated Protestants, and noöne, as far as I can see, called them miscreants and reprobates. On the other hand, I’ve heard the Protestants use epithets like “Romanist” which are forbidden by CAF rules.

Making stuff up will get you nowhere, and it shatters any façade of genuineness you may have had.

All you are doing is cementing my current beliefs.

And vice versa.

 

[Church_Militant]

Typical for you, you can only name call and cannot support your position, if that is what it is, by Scripture. I suspect you read the Scripture rarely and when you do you can’t understand it…typical for someone who has no defense or leg to stand on.

You really need to work on being more charitable in your responses.

I doubt you would appreciate it if I made similar remarks to you. It certainly doesn’t help your “witness.”

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

The Word of God who is in the begining is NOT THE SAME AS THE WRITTEN WORD OF GOD.

That is ELEMENTARY CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY.

You listen here! If your a Christain you should know John:1:1 Jesus came not only to save but he was and is the very word of God. The Bible is the inspired word of God look it up Nancy

 

[joe370]

Originally Posted by Protestant101 View Post
The Bible is God’s voice speaking to us, just as surely as though we could hear it with our ears.

Hey P101…

I agree with you to a degree. However, 2Peter 1:20 says:

*Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation,
for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God. *

If you can’t interpret Holy Scripture and I can’t interpret Holy Scripture, who can, authoritatively, interpret Holy Scripture?

If Holy Scripture is God’s voice speaking to us, just as surely as though we could hear it with our ears, then why are there so many people hearing something different vis-a-vis any one doctrine? Why aren’t you and I on the same page, vis-a-vis the Eucharist?

You belong to one church, I belong to another church, my sister and father, both belong to different churches; I could go on and on; My point is, what gives any of these churches (US) --the right to interpret Holy Scripture?

You and I, as brothers in Christ, are told by Paul to take unresolvable issues, e.g. the Eucharist, or any unresolvable issue, for that matter --to the Church --to adjudicate differences/controversies. I guess, the first thing you and I have to do, is figure out where that church is located; is it my sisters church; is it your church; is it my church? Where in the heck is Jesus’ church --the one He built circa 33 AD? Once we do that, we can finally put an end to this difference of opinion --perhaps…

 

[benedictus2]

Hey P101…

I agree with you to a degree. However, 2Peter 1:20 says:

Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation,
*for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God. *

Just thought that needs to be emphasized. Maybe they will get that this time around.

 

[benedictus2]

You listen here! If your a Christain you should know John:1:1 Jesus came not only to save but he was and is the very word of God. The Bible is the inspired word of God look it up Nancy

Oh for heavens sake. Do I need to explain that? Did you miss the word WRITTEN?

The WRITTEN Word of God is not the same Word of God as in John 1:1. The Word of God in John 1:1 IS JESUS CHRIST.

JESUS IS NOT THE BIBLE!

---

Did John 1:1 say "In beginning was the Bible and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God?

THE BIBLE DID NOT COME TO SAVE US. JESUS DID.

Only someone completely lacking in Christian understanding will equate the Bible with Jesus.

So you listen here. You are obviously not a Christian because you do not know something so ELEMENTARY TO CHRISTIAN FAITH.