Protestants: Do you believe that Christ is truly present in the communion elements of bread and wine?

[benedictus2]

John 6:63-65 It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But among you there are some who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the first who were the ones that did not believe, and who was the one that would betray him. 65 And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted by the Father.”

Another re-hashing of your previous argument which I have refuted before and which you have not come up with a rebuttal.

Okay here it is again. When Jesus was talking about eating and drinking his flesh he repeatedly said "MY flesh, MY blood. Verse 65 on the other hand says “THE flesh” in general. In verse 65 he was contrasting “spirit” and “flesh in general” not His Spirit and His flesh. Get that?

If you are trying to refute verses 52-58 with verse 65 then your argument is basically saying that Jesus spoke like this " Eat my flesh, drink my blood because it will give you eternal life (several times) , but actually it is all useless"

How can you even think that one verse will contradict 6 verses. How can you even think that Jesus will contradict HIMSELF.

Can you not see that you are making Him out ot be an idiot?

Wake up and open you eyes and ears…Jesus is clear clear clear clear.

No Sir. It is you who need to wake up. And yes, **Jesus is extremely clear as we have shown. You cannot get any clearer than repeating a point 5 times. **

That is why we are all perplexed how you cannot possibly get it. The Truth is staring you in the face and yet somehow, there must be something hindering your view.

 

[Matariel]

Saint Paul says, “Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the Body and Blood of the Lord… for anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the Body, eats and drinks judgement on himself.” (1 Corinthians 11:27,29) Paul’s statement makes sense only if the bread and wine have become the real Body and Blood of Christ. Also, people whohold a mere “symbolic” view have to explain why people were getting sick and dying by taking the Eucharist unworthily. Eating “symbolic” bread and wine unworthily would not kill you.

 

[Cinette]

Nice rebuttal? I have faith in God; not a religious organization. “You are Peter and upon this rock I will built my Curch” said Jesus - not an “organization” You and others arrogance concerning where the Bible came from would be laughable if not for the fact that you actually believe that.My mistake - of course your “Bible” is the modified version of The Bible.

I guess the Catholic Bible and the Bible(s) I have exactly the same books…no.You are facetious and it is unbecoming and childish. I have noticed how you and your kind get nasty and extremely ugly when you cannot prove your stand. Also, I guess Moses was a Catholic…no! there you go again - being silly I guess God is not the author of Scripture.“I will send you the Holy to guide you into all truth” - we Catholics take no credit my friend - it is the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Do you see the ignorance and arrogance in such statements? Not at all - it is the promises Jesus made to His Church when he founded it. Unfortunately, you prove you don’t know the truth of God because you follow faith and tradition outside of God’s word.correction = Faith and Oral and Written Tradition (note the capital T)

Read Hebrews starting near the end of chapter 7, then all of 8 and 9; then meditate and see if it says anything about the ending of the priesthood. I shall do this exercise and pray that You may be blessed and your mind opened.

Read Luke 22 and I Corinthians on the sections concerning the Lords Supper; look carefully at what Christ actually says in relation to eating of flesh and drinking of blood.I shall do that very prayerfully o help you actually discern the truth, you may want to do a word search on exactly how the word “remembrance” is used throughout the New Testament.I shall do everything you suggest prayerfully. You might also pray and read John 6 s l o w l y!

searchgodsword.org/desk/?language=en&query=remembrance&section=2&translation=kjv&oq=remembrance&new=1&sr=1

Enjoy your study and I pray right now as I post this you will both see and hear the word of God speak to your heart…amen.I shall do likewise and may God bless you.

 

[NonCatholic]

Saint Paul says, “Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the Body and Blood of the Lord… for anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the Body, eats and drinks judgement on himself.” (1 Corinthians 11:27,29) Paul’s statement makes sense only if the bread and wine have become the real Body and Blood of Christ. Also, people whohold a mere “symbolic” view have to explain why people were getting sick and dying by taking the Eucharist unworthily. Eating “symbolic” bread and wine unworthily would not kill you.

Then why are you discussing this with the fundamental evangelicals and protestants and others who know it is symbolic; shouldn’t they all be dead according your standard. Do you think before you post?

This is trampling over the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord. Only the unregenerate mind can twist it as you and others do.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

**They did indeed have a personal relationship with Him.:**thumbsup:

**
Protestant101,

STOP IT! You are making me agree with you! Keep talking crazy things it better suits your beliefs! **

 

[Cinette]

The key phrase in John 6, regarding the Lord’s Supper, is "in remembrance."Catholic Priests all over the world utter these words DAILY when they say Mass at the Consecration. DAILY! A phrase that is absent in most of the Catholic theology regarding this subject. (most, but not all).“Where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise/”

No one is “blind” just because they have a different view than do Catholics on this.You have eyes and you do not see - you have ears and do not hear! It remains to be proven too that the ones who walked away from Jesus in John 6, were NOT priests of the early Catholic Church. Protestants, since then, have remained with the way Jesus taught this subject: “in remembrance.” The symbolism is clear here and throughout the Bible.

 

[NonCatholic]

Cinette:
Look…John 6 was before the Lords supper and versus 63 onward…does not Jesus explain what he said…spirit spirit truth truth

“Your kind” get nasty?..please don’t get me started least I sin.

 

[Cinette]

Can you read?

That IS what he said.

 

[Matariel]

Then why are you discussing this with the fundamental evangelicals and protestants and others who know it is symbolic; shouldn’t they all be dead according your standard. Do you think before you post?

No, they are not all dead, because they do not even have the Sacrament. Because you Protestants threw out the Ministerial Priesthood (which is required to confect 5 of the 7 Sacraments), you were left with an empty ceremony. There is no Sacrament in Protestant buildings.

You may only get sick or die if you partake of the real deal, the Catholic Sacraments. Not Protestant imitations.

This is trampling over the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord. Only the unregenerate mind can twist it as you and others do.

Ha-ha, nice question dodge. Nowhere did you rebut what I said about St. Paul.

 

[joe370]

** Originally Posted by NonCatholic View Post
Notice in verse 20 “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.” here Jesus expounds on the significance of His blood being shed as a promise of the New Covenant - notice He said “in My blood”, not “drink my blood”.**

Really???

Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and** drink his blood,** you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and** drinks my blood has eternal life**, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my **blood is true drink. **Whoever eats my flesh and **drinks my blood **remains in me and I in him…

Non-Catholic --you might want to re-think that…

 

[benedictus2]

Nice rebuttal? I have faith in God; not a religious organization. You and others arrogance concerning where the Bible came from would be laughable if not for the fact that you actually believe that.

Here is a link on the timeline of the Cannon of the Bible.

Timeline of how the Bible came to us

I guess the Catholic Bible and the Bible(s) I have exactly the same books…no. Also, I guess Moses was a Catholic…

Sarcasm does not address the issue

no! I guess God is not the author of Scripture. Do you see the ignorance and arrogance in such statements? Unfortunately, you prove you don’t know the truth of God because you follow faith and tradition outside of God’s word.

And when did we ever say that God is not the author of Scripture? You are putting words into our mouth, mister.

Actually it is you who prove that you don’t know the truth about the Word of God.

Before the NT was ever written, the Church was already there. As I have said before, Christ did not go around with a secretary saying “Write this. Record my memoirs. Write my biography”.

What did He do? He established a Church. The Catholic Church.

The NT was written within the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church pronounced the canon of the Bible.

Do you know that by believing the inerrancy of the Bible you are actually affirming (although you do not realize it) your belief in the Catholic Church?

 

[NonCatholic]

No, they are not all dead, because they do not even have the Sacrament. Because you Protestants threw out the Ministerial Priesthood (which is required to confect 5 of the 7 Sacraments), you were left with an empty ceremony. There is no Sacrament in Protestant buildings.

You will have to ask a Protestant that question…The church I attend has two ordinances, things that Jesus ordained…Baptism and the Lord’s Supper…we don’t add man-made sacraments. The Priesthood you mentioned was done away with, the tabernacle and the altar - read the end of Hebrews 7, all of 8 and 9; you will then not see what God said.

You may only get sick or die if you partake of the real deal, the Catholic Sacraments. Not Protestant imitations.

Sick for sure; die I doubt.

Ha-ha, nice question dodge. Nowhere did you rebut what I said about St. Paul.

Are you blind to reading as well? Paul is referring to trampling over the death, resurrection and burial of Christ…isn’t that what the Lords Supper is reminding of us…ggeezz.:banghead:

 

[benedictus2]

Look…John 6 was before the Lords supper and versus 63 onward…does not Jesus explain what he said…spirit spirit truth truth

“Your kind” get nasty?..please don’t get me started least I sin.

I have already refuted this point twice in this thread and the latest one I addressed to you on post 698.

I will try to locate all other refutations of this point in this thread.

 

[joe370]

This is a classic falsehood. Jesus wants us to do what He did and to have His experience that He had while here on earth.

**Yup --take up our crosses.
**
But how far do we carry this? I don’t see Catholics being “literal” when it comes to hanging oneself on the cross.

I couldn’t agree more; Jesus was clearly speaking in metaphor!!!

Jesus is called a “Lion” in Rev.5:5, so why don’t you eat lion meat at Mass?

Are you being serious???

"Aaah, but Jesus did not say eat the lion, did he? He said eat my flesh? And everyone knows the lion here is a metaphor just as every Jew knows that when he said eat my flesh, he meant it literally."

How is this not obvious? If Jesus said, eat a lion—I can’t even finish my thought; it’s too ridiculous; I 'm sorry…

The classic falsehood is your interpretation.

**What falsehood??? **

“When Jesus was here on earth He did COMMAND ONE THING. EAT MY FLESH, DRINK MY BLOOD.”**Where is the falsehood in those words???

Where is the metaphor??? Please, I’m trying to work with you!**

 

[Realcatholicgk]

The key phrase in John 6, regarding the Lord’s Supper, is “in remembrance.” A phrase that is absent in most of the Catholic theology regarding this subject. (most, but not all).
** Hi Protestant101,

This is better! WRONG! Did you know that every** Catholic Priest in the world says the words of Jesus : “Do this in remembrance of Me!” Daily? It is part of the Eucharistic prayer. Learn about the reral Catholic religion. However, the key Phrase is “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

No one is “blind” just because they have a different view than do Catholics on this.
**
Of course not! You silly goose! They are blind because Satan clouds their minds. He distorts the thought process so the truth, which is written in plain language, can’t be understood. Jesus says 12 times to eat His Body, Protestants and cults ignore His commandment! They rather “remember” Him. Unfortunately Jesus may not remember them as He also told us!**

It remains to be proven too that the ones who walked away from Jesus in John 6, were NOT priests of the early Catholic Church.

**Actually it was proved. Since Peter and the apostles didn’t walk away, Jesus’ Pope, Bishops and Priests didn’t walk away.

I will type this slowly, read it slowly…it may work. The ones who walked away "walked away because they “didn’t believe that Jesus’ body was in the bread” … STOP! Go back and read again slowly. There will be a quiz. I want you to get the right answer! Your soul may depend on it, so read what I wrote one more time! …OK?
Now! Who left Jesus? Catholics who do believe or Protestants type heretics who can’t read plain words and understand them? I pray you get the correct answer. **

Protestants, since then, have remained with the way Jesus taught this subject: “in remembrance.”

**There weren’t any protestants until 1,500 years later. You can’t “follow” Jesus and NOT Follow Jesus! Protestants do not follow Jesus they follow the counterfeit churches developed when they left jesus’ real church. The leader of these chuch can’t be jesus, He is the Head of the Body of Chrict which was, is, and shall remain the RCC! The devil heads all the corrupt, distorted, cancerous type groups which had formed, multiplied and divided into 61,000 different groups denying Jesus’ teachings and practicing dumb things like saturday worship rather then the day they Jesus set aside when He rose from the dead! **

The symbolism is clear here and throughout the Bible.

**Yes, the truth and symbolism is clear in the Bible. Even dozens of the 100 or more corrupt versions you worshipo have some truth in them! The problem is with the interpretations revealed by Satan are not the real Truth that Jesus taught! If you don’t come to believe the Truth the Devil would have won your soul. I pray that he doesn’t.

I have read all your postings. You do “love” Jesus, as best you can! What a shame it would be for the devil to win your soul. Pray and remember. Jesus never lied! Never! He said the bread was His body, Just have faith and believe Him! The truth will set you free of satan’s grip. Ask any convert!

God Bless **

 

[Matariel]

You will have to ask a Protestant that question…The church I attend has two ordinances, things that Jesus ordained…Baptism and the Lord’s Supper…we don’t add man-made sacraments. The Priesthood you mentioned was done away with, the tabernacle and the altar - read the end of Hebrews 7, all of 8 and 9; you will then not see what God said.

Do you have the Christian altar of which the author of Hebrews speaks? Most evangelical/fundamentalist Protestant buildings do not have altars, as far as I can see.

Sick for sure; die I doubt.

Do you seek to will arguements with insults? 'Cause it never works. Another reason I left evangelical/fundamentalist Protestantism, the emotional charges and insults leveled against others who didn’t believe as them, instead of logical rebuttals. Which you have as yet to provide.

Are you blind to reading as well? Paul is referring to trampling over the death, resurrection and burial of Christ…isn’t that what the Lords Supper is reminding of us.

Yes, it’s the Body and Blood of the Lord. “This is My Body”, “This is My Blood.” “Whoever eats My Flesh and Drinks My Blood abides in Me and I in him.”

Jesus said it, not me. And Christians have always believed that, until Zwingli came along during the 1500’s with his humanist, liberal views and said the Sacrament was nothing but a symbol. I do not follow traditions of men, such as Zwingli. I follow the holy Church of God, the holy Catholic Church, founded by Christ, and lead by the successor of St. Peter, Pope Benedict XVI.

 

[hughi]

Dear Non-Catholic:

I wonder how much sympathy you’d receive from the Greek or Russian Orthodox? You might find them far less welcoming and forgiving that Roman Catholics, for whom the Western influence of Humanism has been far more pervasive.

In this regard, I agree with Pope JP2. Without the Eastern Orthodox, the Chruch is breathing with only one, and not two lungs.

Their spirituality is often reduced, by some authorities, to the simple recitation of the “Jesus Prayer:”

“Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have mercy on me, a sinner.”

Interestingly, their apologetics is also much more straightforward: oftentimes a simple dismissal of those they consider heretics. They just don’t have time for it.

So here’s my suggestion: log on to some of thier web sites (if you can find one) and have a field day.

 

[NonCatholic]

Here is a link on the timeline of the Cannon of the Bible.

The Church no more gave us the New Testament canon than Sir Isaac Newton gave us the force of gravity

Sarcasm does not address the issue

You call it as you see it; I call it an obvious oversight and a ridiculous and arrogant statements I have seen all over this place concerning “where the Bible” came from.

And when did we ever say that God is not the author of Scripture? You are putting words into our mouth, mister.

I wish I could put the words of truth in your mouths

Actually it is you who prove that you don’t know the truth about the Word of God.

Calling the kettle black are you?

Before the NT was ever written, the Church was already there. As I have said before, Christ did not go around with a secretary saying “Write this. Record my memoirs. Write my biography”.

What did He do? He established a Church. The Catholic Church.

Christ established no such institution.

The NT was written within the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church pronounced the canon of the Bible.

Here you go again showing your arrogance toward Scripture; you just can’t seem to help yourselves since the defense is lame.

Do you know that by believing the inerrancy of the Bible you are actually affirming (although you do not realize it) your belief in the Catholic Church?

Is this mumbo-jumbo or hocus-pocus? I have great concern for the souls of the Catholics; my heart bleeds and mourns over all of you.

 

[joe370]

The Church no more gave us the New Testament canon than Sir Isaac Newton gave us the force of gravity

**NonCatholic, what church did in fact codify/canonize the bible, if not the C.C.???
**

Christ established no such institution.

What did Christ establish, and when???

Is this mumbo-jumbo or hocus-pocus? I have great concern for the souls of the Catholics; my heart bleeds and mourns over all of you.

**Thank you; right back at you. **

 

[MDK]

Look…John 6 was before the Lords supper and versus 63 onward…does not Jesus explain what he said…spirit spirit truth truth

“Your kind” get nasty?..please don’t get me started least I sin.

No one is asking you to sin, but just the opposite. Please do not sin.

So, do you say that Jesus had to teach it your way, instead of His way?

Christ taught about the Eucharist before the Passover. At Passover before His death on the cross, He actually instituted the Eucharist. If you put your thinking cap on, you’ll recall that the Israelites in Egypt had to slaughter a perfect male lamb, putting the blood on the wood of the doorpost (blood on wood, like the cross), and eat the flesh of the lamb on Passover. This was a sign of course, a foreshadowing of what the true Lamb would do. In the last supper, Christ as the Passover Lamb and High Priest told His Apostles that this “Is My Body” and “Is My Blood” and there is no symbology there. It is real. He commanded them to “Do this in remembrance of Me.” While the flesh and blood of the lamb saved the Israelite from slavery, the Body and Blood of the True Lamb of God saves His new chosen people from slavery to sin.