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Tomster
Guest
Post # 615 Matt.
Protestants, How could an Infallible book be of use to you, w/o an Infallible Interpreter?
- Status
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michaeldaniels
Guest
Christ advocated and instructed that there was to be ONE CHURCH…PERIOD. So you are not advocating Christ, you are advocating the Father of all Lies in reality
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CMatt25
Guest
No I was baptized, confirmed, catechized in the RCC so no I have never heard of Trent.
(sorry sarcasm)Why do you presume I don’t have a Catholic Bible and these things?
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CMatt25
Guest
Jn 14:6 Jesus is the truth. I hope we meet Him in heaven. So as glorious as we imagine heaven to be, are you saying your human mind can truly fully understand exactly how much so? Wow you can fully grasp the full understanding of our one and only heavenly Creator? Do you look yourself in the mirror while doing so? I’m sorry but some common sense here please.
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CMatt25
Guest
Expand on what? Christ our Lord and Savior? Loving your neighbors? You know those truths Christians agree on.
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michaeldaniels
Guest
Because there doesn’t seem to be any Catholic influence or belief in any of your statements
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CMatt25
Guest
615 where it was presumed I didn’t have those things? What about it?
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CMatt25
Guest
There is one Church of Christ but thank you for judging.
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CMatt25
Guest
Seriously? You do realize Christians agree on a lot of things which are Catholic too, don’t you?
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michaeldaniels
Guest
DO you mean Church of Christ…like literally Church of Christ…or do you mean that The Catholic Church is the one Church founded by Christ??
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CMatt25
Guest
I didn’t mean only the denomination named the Church of Christ. And now if you will excuse me I only had a fish sandwich, a side, and a Pop Tart yesterday and nothing yet today so I am feeling a bit like getting some lunch. But I will pray for your discernment. God bless.
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michaeldaniels
Guest
I hear ya…and thanks for the prayers, Lord knows I need them…I will pray for you too 
Go get you a filling meal 
Go get you a filling meal
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CMatt25
Guest
Thanks for your prayers, Michael. The Lord knows I need them too. Probably not too filling because dinner will be here in a few hrs.I hear ya…and thanks for the prayers, Lord knows I need them…I will pray for you too
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
You purposedly choose not to understand what I have explained several times. Christ made those promises to men He appointed over His Church, knowing that those men would eventually die, yet He stated He would be with them, His Church, until the consummation of the world. In our faith, we believe Christ has all power to do whatever He said He would do, including teach and guide His Church in all things, including the things that are to come. That’s infallible.I accept God as infallible, and thus, by His divine nature, Jesus. Yes.
Good. Where does He state that The Catholic Church - specifically, particularly, exclusively and perpetually - is INFALLIBLE, UNACCOUNTABLE, EXEMPT FROM NORMING, and WHATEVER IT AND IT ALONE SAYS is simply to be accepted as correct “with docility” and “as Jesus speaking?”
Yes, He did. Now, where did He state that The Catholic Church - specifically, particularly, exclusively and perpetually - is INFALLIBLE, UNACCOUNTABLE, EXEMPT FROM NORMING, and WHATEVER IT AND IT ALONE SAYS is simply to be accepted as correct “with docility” and “as Jesus speaking?”
AGAIN, I’m trying to understand where in the world you get the idea that if a teacher teaches, ergo the student is infallible and unaccountable for all that is taught? That if God leads, ergo it is impossible to not infallibly follow and the subject of such is unaccountable? Where do you get this idea that is so foundational to your entire apologetic? Certainly not from the Bible. Have you read about the fall of Adam and Eve? If not, it’s in Genesis, chapter 3, please read it. GOD (whom we agree is infallible - and thus infallibly lead Adam and Eve and infallibly taught Adam and Eve) even here in a perfect world (unlike our own) to sinless students (unlike any Catholic), and yet 100% of the subjects of His teaching and leading did WRONG - and God certainly held them accountable for it! Have you read the 4 Gospels in the New Testament? If not, please do. Jesus - and we agree He was infallible - for 3 years taught and lead the 12 Apostles. Directly from Jesus. For 3 years. Infallibly teaching, infallibly leading. But, did they constantly and perpetually and infallibly follow? Understand? Did Jesus hold them as accountable for what they did and said? Much of Jesus’ ministry was CORRECTING the 12, rebuking them, holding them accountable. Jesus called one of the Apostles “Satan” (do you know which one?). Now, in life - your point seems baseless, too. I was taught my job by a lady who held it for some 20 years and by my “boss” who understands it very well. Not “infallible”, either one, but outstanding. I got my degree at the age of 19 with honors from one of the top universities in the USA, but I didn’t understand everything infallibly and I AM held accountable for what I do. Are you in your work? Where do you get the idea that students are infallible and unaccountable?
You seem to admit that it’s the UNACCOUNTABLE interpretation of The Catholic Church that Jesus MEANT to say what you suggest, but didn’t. Friend, it’s just self claiming for self. Jesus didn’t promise these things it IT, IT simply claims that He did.
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- You seem to suggest that I’m accountable. Why me but not The Catholic Church?
- I never posted that Scripture is the sole authority, or that Scripture so states. I have stated that I think Scripture is the most sound rule/canon for our evaluation of doctrines. I didn’t say Scripture so states (although it does so example).
- Your issue with self appointing self as the sole, authoritative, infallible/unaccountable interpreter of Scripture (one I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH) needs to be directed to the only one on the planet in all of human history that so does: The Catholic Church (read your own Catechism # 85, 87, etc.). Your “problem” is one of the reasons I left The Catholic Church.
- The Bible doesn’t specifically outline the arbitive process. But I find it unsound for a defendant to simply exempt self alone from accountability, circumvent norming in the exclusively case of self alone, and rather just insist that whatever self alone says is simply to be accepted as correct “with docility.” That is not modeled. And it seems to conflict with the prophets who often rebuked others (holding them accountable, norming them) and with Jesus’ frequent, bold warnings about false teachers and his praise of the Ephesian Christians for regarding their teachers as accountable.
Joh 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
The teacher teaches and can correct the student, when He is with them until the consummation of the world.
Now, play a game over ‘He didn’t say Catholic Church’. He did not say ‘Lutheran’, ‘Methodist’ or ‘any number of denominations’. There was one Church, until the great schism. Then there were two, of the same faith. The Protestant reformation broke away from ‘Catholicism’ without denying that the Catholic Church was the Church of the Bible. Martin Luther broke away because of what he viewed as corruption in his time. With this knowledge, it’s silly to say ‘Where did Christ specifically say Catholic Church’. The term was in use when St. Ignatius used it in 107 to 110AD.
Now, I have offered scriptures, writings from St. Ignatius and even a statement of Martin Luther’s concession that the Word of God, the Bible, came from the Catholics. You have continued the same arguement, based on opinion, your own opinion with no scriptures, no early Church fathers and nothing from the founder of the Lutheran Church.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Do you, and every individual in this world, have Apostolic succession?
- You seem to suggest that I’m accountable. Why me but not The Catholic Church?
Yes, it’s the most sound rule for the evaluation of doctrines with the traditions we have learned and are to hold too, but each and every individual does not have the authority to measure doctrines against the rule. Christ specifically appointed people with authority and it was not the ‘multitudes’. No one in scriptures appointed themselves. That’s the problem with private interpretation, every person has a Bible and many think they have the authority to weigh doctrines against scriptures, even the unlearned, unstable and unwise, even to their own destruction.
- I never posted that Scripture is the sole authority, or that Scripture so states. I have stated that I think Scripture is the most sound rule/canon for our evaluation of doctrines. I didn’t say Scripture so states (although it does so example).
Christ built ONE Church. The Bible consists of letters and epistles to the various Churches, but the letters and epistles contain ONE teaching. Protestants will argue that the letters and epistles were considered scripture when they were written and were widely circulated. This only confirms one teaching to all the Churches. There was ONE Church, in many locations. Your problem was the cause of your own reasons. You decided you could read the scriptures better than the Church that preserved from since it was written to the point that you have it in your hands.
- Your issue with self appointing self as the sole, authoritative, infallible/unaccountable interpreter of Scripture (one I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH) needs to be directed to the only one on the planet in all of human history that so does: The Catholic Church (read your own Catechism # 85, 87, etc.). Your “problem” is one of the reasons I left The Catholic Church.
Bold warnings about false teachers…we complain of many denominations, with slight to great differences in doctrines. Which of those is false and which are true?
- The Bible doesn’t specifically outline the arbitive process. But I find it unsound for a defendant to simply exempt self alone from accountability, circumvent norming in the exclusively case of self alone, and rather just insist that whatever self alone says is simply to be accepted as correct “with docility.” That is not modeled. And it seems to conflict with the prophets who often rebuked others (holding them accountable, norming them) and with Jesus’ frequent, bold warnings about false teachers and his praise of the Ephesian Christians for regarding their teachers as accountable.
You last sentence conflicts with another teaching from Christ.
Mat 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses.
Mat 23:3 All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not. For they say, and do not.
He didn’t say reject those teachers, leave, and start a new Church…
Again, it’s highly noticable you make your argument without scriptures, writings of the early Church fathers or even writings from the founder of your own Church. That makes my point for me, though you probably can’t see it.
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Carlan
Guest
My beliefs are what the Magisterium (the teaching authority of the Catholic Church), teaches.You used to claim to be a believing member of the same Church. Yes,I believe you love and sincerely believe in Jesus, but you dissent when it comes to the teaching of his Apostolic Church.
Your writing tells people that you simply believe in Jesus and me.You do not seem to grasp the Truth that we in the Church on earth, and the Church in heaven are all one in him. and as Christians we should all be walking together in the one Church,not Tweetys and Jesus’ Church, or the thirty or forty thousand other Church’s our separated brothers claim.
Goodness! how long is it going to take for the light to finally shine on for you as a so called member of the Apostolic Church?
Prayers and Peace , Carlan
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Matthew_P_Muehl
Guest
I’am glad to hear tweety has read the bible several times over however she seemed to miss 2Peter1:20-21.
Matthew
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Tomster
Guest
Protestants have what I like to term a template that they put over the Bible which reveals the portions that are peculiar to their sect and which block out all other portions.
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tweetymom
Guest
Like I have said to you that I am thankful you believe in what you do,. Goodness how long is it going to take for the light to shine that I know in whom I believeth. And for me to be a believer in Christ I do not have to agree with what you believe, but God Bless you.My beliefs are what the Magisterium (the teaching authority of the Catholic Church), teaches.You used to claim to be a believing member of the same Church. Yes,I believe you love and sincerely believe in Jesus, but you dissent when it comes to the teaching of his Apostolic Church.
Your writing tells people that you simply believe in Jesus and me.You do not seem to grasp the Truth that we in the Church on earth, and the Church in heaven are all one in him. and as Christians we should all be walking together in the one Church,not Tweetys and Jesus’ Church, or the thirty or forty thousand other Church’s our separated brothers claim.
Goodness! how long is it going to take for the light to finally shine on for you as a so called member of the Apostolic Church?
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CMatt25
Guest
Why do we Catholics always assume someone does not understand what we are saying? - Status