Protestants: How Do You Know That Your Interpretation of the Bible is the Right one? Part II

[guanophore]

Okay: Besides the eoc, and the cc, who else interprets scripture to justify compelling their members to confess to a priest, instead of God?(1John 1:9).

Even the eoc and the cc do not do this. It has been the consistent teaching from the Apostles that we confess our sins to God. Any confession to a person “instead” of God would be considered counterproductive.

And if water baptism washes away sins, as guanophore so eloquently put it on another thread, then was John the Baptist washing away sins?

John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. The HS had not yet been joined to the waters of baptism. That did not happen until Jesus entered them.

Isn’t baptism more an act of obedience, a public profession of your committment to follow Christ, and an act which seals, or solidifies your salvation?

It could be all those things, but one must keep in mind that Christianity was illegal until 325. They gathered in secret, and no one who was not initiated was admitted to such ceremonies as baptism. Each candidate had a sponsor, just as Paul had Barnabas, to vouch for them, to prevent spies and assassins from wiping out the faithful. They baptized in catacombs and out in the desert and did not send out public invitations.

And if water baptism washes away sin, then what about the blood of Christ

Baptism is the manner in which the blood of Christ is applied to the believer.

Rev 7:14
These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The early church used white robes for the initiates, and still does today. Though our sins are like crimson, He makes us whiter than snow!

 

[guanophore]

So which washes away sin; the blood of Christ, baptism by water, preferably full immersion like Jesus did, or a combination of both?

Baptism is the manner in which we are joined to Christ’s death.

Rom 6:1-11
6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For he who has died is freed from sin. 8 But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. 9 For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Okay, let me ask the question a different way; let’s say that I decide to join the catholic church on say, the 12th of never. And I decide that I don’t need to go to confession; how would I be received by the church, priests, etc?

That depends. If you were baptized Catholic, you would need to go to confession to return to the Church. If you were baptized in another ecclesial community, then you would receive catechesis, and make a profession of faith, then be confirmed in the faith. If you were to accept the Holy and Apostolic faith, you would then be admitted to communion.

And to really know the Truth, one is better off going to the source:Jesus , because He is the TRUTH! Maybe you should look in the mirror before accusing people of not being true Christians! Only God knows what’s in someone’s heart:thumbsup:

You are right about that. If we all spent more of our attention on He who is Truth, rather than finding fault with one another, perhaps the unity for which Christ prayed would materialize!

 

[JRKH]

I hope that resolves quickly and positively

Thank you. Unfortunately we are on a long road into Alzheimers, with only two possible outcomes. Divine intervention and cure or, a prayerful laying of my Darling Wife into the Arms of Our Lord.

On the contrary, I would say that mine is a very high view. Christ will be with his church by his power and by his grace and it will be united by the presence of the Holy Spirit despite its many sins and actions of resistance. I don’t see his presence and guidance as being somehow only truly effective wrt the preservation of doctrine (and of being of a lesser quality everywhere else).

It’s interesting that you should put this in this way. For this is truly How the CC Church views Christ’s presence and protection of His Church. Even with the last sentence we would agree, for Christ is present throughout His Church - in matters of Doctrine AND everywhere else.

So? You speak as if we agree that councils cannot err and so it is unnecessary to revisit what they did. We don’t so agree. Further, what would a council in the sixth century have that we don’t have and that would put it in a better position to determine the question?

If you consider that a Church council can err, particularly on something as central to Christiantiy as setting the Bible Canon, then you have no standing upon which to accept Any of the Scriptures contained in the Bible - in either the Catholic or Protestant version.
The fact is that the Canon of the Bible was set by THE Christian Church at the time. Those who were members of that Church, even if they disagreed with the canon as set, submitted their wills to that of the Church exactly as set forth in Mt 18.

You keep returning to this idea. You have mentioned a couple of passages, but I am not sure which is your “Tell it to the Church” passage(s). You have mentioned Matt 18, but that relates to a personal sin and not doctrine. If the brother refuses to repent one takes that matter to the local church (where that brother fellowships and where he would be held accountable) and the local church administers discipline. I don’t think that relates to the establishment of the canon.

Funny - But I don’t see teh word “personal” in the text.
As soon as you can tell me that “preaching a different Gospel”, in other words teaching false doctrine, is not a sin then you have grounds to tell me that Mt 18 does not apply. Otherwise I’m afraid I will just have to keep bringing it up. For contained there-in is the very thing that allows the continued splitting of the Protestant Churches and the continued unity of the Catholic Church. That is the visible and Authoritative Church.

The word “Church” appears exactly twice in the Gospels and in BOTH cases it is related to the confiring of Authority. In BOTH cases the authority to “bind and loose” whatever is confired by Christ upon The Church through the Apostles.
So the Church has authority to Bind and Loose In Christ’s name “Whatever”! (Jesus words, not mine)

You also mention Acts 19, but that is a case where certain members of one local church were trying to impose their understanding upon other local churches. That wasn’t close to being a full ecumenical council either by way of the number churches or by way of the number of apostles involved.

I would be the first to admit that the way the Church functioned in the 1st Century is far disserent than the way it functioned later. However that does NOT change the basic facts of the matter in so far as the implications for Church authority.
In Matthew Christ confirred authority upon The Church - To Bind and Loose.
In Acts we see that Authority in action. Simple as taht.

One of those local churches sent two representatives to the local church that was responsible for the people causing the problem. The first local church realized the error of its members and stopped trying to impose its ways upon the other local churches.

I would be interested in the source matterial for this.

A ruling was made that was seen as reasonable by both sides to the dispute. For Acts 19 to be of use as a precedent for the Reformation era, the RCC would have to have acted in the same fashion as the church of Jerusalem. For Luther to meet with the representatives of the RCC, Luther had to take a very real chance that he would be burnt at the stake by the RCC (as per Huss)…contrast that with the situation in Acts 19 where Paul and Barnabas did not need to fear possible death from the church at Jerusalem. In order for a “tell it to the church” mechanism to work, the church has to actually conduct itself in a Christian fashion and not kill/imprison those coming to it.

I have not proposed that the model be applied directly to Luther - I have asked for an example of a time when all of the “Local” protestant Churches held a council on a perticular issue of doctrine, reached a conclusion and applied to to ALL of their Churches ala the Council of Jerusalem.
As to Luther, it is my understanding that He did place his case before the Church and was ruled against. Then instead of submitting as he should have, he rebelled and was excommunicated.

Second, Jerusalem could readily admit its representatives were wrong…it hadn’t declared itself to be infallible. The RCC (both at the time of the Reformation and now) could not dream of admitting that it had made an error on an official teaching b/c that would open everything (including papal primacy) up to question. If the RCC were to admit that it erred, the bishopric of Rome would risk losing most of its authority. In order for a “tell it to the church” mechanism to work, the person taking it to the church must believe that the church in question would actually listen to the voice of God even if it meant giving up the power and position that it has attained. No protestant is so optimistic as to think that the RCC would admit error wrt any official teaching.

The Council at Jerusalem never needed to admit it was wrong. They were discussing a matter that had not been settled doctrinally so there was no doctrinal error involved.
As a non-catholic you may not be aware of the amount of study anddebate that goes on in the magisterium before any teaching is put out.

(Continued Below)

 

[JRKH]

(Cont From Above)

Finally, while I am on this topic, allow me to make some observations about ecumenical councils. It seems to me that if ecumenical councils were the divinely mandated tool for infallibly settling matters of doctrine, then somewhere God should have expressly stated such to be the case. Further, one can only wonder why it took almost 300 years to hold such a divinely mandated tool and then why it was held only b/c of the insistence of an emperor rather than being instigated from within the church.

I’ll try to answer the balance of your post by tomorrow. Peace

The simple fact is that ecumenical councils per-se were NOT mandated by Christ. Christ Gave the Church through the Apostles and their successors the Authority to “Bind and Loose”, how they went about that developed over the years as guided by the Holy Spirit.
Ecumenical councils are a very Good tool as it allows all sides to be heard and wise decisions reached.

Just one more point on my recurring reference to Mt 18 - I see Mt 16, Mt 18 and Acts 15 as clear evidence of How Christ wanted us to handle differences as well as an example of the Church applying Christ’s desire.
I see it played out every day here at the boards. Catholics and non-catholics discuss and debate back and forth this or that bit of belief. Usually to no avail. So we are left with a “fractured” and “wounded” Body of Christ. Is this what Christ Prayed for when He prayed that we “be one as the Father and I are one”? Is this what Paul exhorted us to when he asked in several letters that we “be of One mind”?

I would like to believe that Martin Luther, when he posited that all one needed was the Bible and the Holy Spirit, truly thought that the Holy Spirit would lead everyone to the same understanding of Scripture. He was wrong, as even he recognized before his death.
Agreeing to disagree just doesn’t work. There is a need for authority. Christ Provided that through His Church - Visible and Authoritative. It was visible and Authoritative at Jerusalem and is still visible and authoritative today.

Peace
James

 

[guanophore]

“Why did Jerome and the others categorize the dc as scripture?” Unless the answer is that they knew for a fact that it was included in the body of works that Jesus called scripture, then it is just their best guess

He knew because this is what had been revealed to the Church, and was held in Sacred Tradition. If you cannot trust this Source, then you really have no NT, because the affirmation of the Alexandrian Septuagint was made by the same people that closed the 27 books of the NT. If they made a mistake with the OT, how do you know they got the NT right?

Then the question becomes, “What body of works did Jesus call scripture?”

Aside from His teachings from the Septuagint, one of the best testimonies that He confirms the Deuteros as canonical is his presence at the festival of lights. The history of this feast, which He celebrated at the temple in Jerusalem, is told from the intertestamental period in the books of Macabees. If He thought this was of man, I don’t think He would have participated.

What “both ways”. I evaluate the decisions made by the early church and decide if those fallible men got those decisions right or wrong. I am not alone in that endeavor. Accepting one decision doesn’t mean that all other decisions must be accepted.

Basically what you are saying is that your own authoritative assessment is of more value to you that Jesus’ promise to lead them into “all Truth”. Since those same “fallible men” wrote, collected, and canonized the NT, then no doubt you, like Luther, will need to re-evaluate all the books of the NT to decide if their inclusion is right or wrong?

I don’t think Paul said to get rid of any part of the body of Christ.

Indeed not. On the contrary, he taugth that those who were not united to the bishops he appointed were not to be considered members of the Body. He taugth that they had gotten rid of themselves!

 if inspired would be of prophetic (not apostolic) authority by my method of categorization

Glad you could come up with a system better than the one that the Apostles used.

 No, God’s Word is extremely  important, but the exclusion or inclusion of Revelation would not in any way effect my beliefs with respect to Jesus (aka the Word).

It is good that you are evaluating the usefulness and application of the NT books. Luther had the same approach.

   No, the flawed thing would be the thing you hold up as the authority.

That would be Jesus, the Head of the Church.

“What body of works did Jesus call scripture?”

How is it that you imagine the Apostles would not know the answer to this?

 

[po18guy]

reading MDK’s last post and proceeding with caution yet BOLDLY

The way I know my interpretation is right can be based on the same merit that you know that yours is right. Everyday, I read the Bible and I ask God for wisdom and understanding in everything that I read. The word tells me to “study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” If someone is telling me that I’m wrong, I can’t back down when I KNOW the Spirit that lies in me leads and direct me, according to the will of God, and God doesn’t lead anyone wrong. That, you can put your life on. I take the Word for face value. I don’t read to deep, too lightly, or add my own into it (like tooooooo many “Christians” do nowadays.). Looking @ my post, I could have just summed it up with Proverbs 3:5-7

lol

Please consider: Jesus founded a Church, correct? Once founded, He gave authority to the Apostles. That same Church is “the pillar and foundation of the truth”, correct? So, as all early believers, and you and I must do, we go to the Church for interpretation of scripture - the one and the same Church which Jesus founded for you and I. To ask for a spirit to guide you is to invite every spirit of this world to have a crack at you.

The Holy Spirit unites.
The demon divides.

Christ’s peace.

 

[MDK]

reading MDK’s last post and proceeding with caution yet BOLDLY

The way I know my interpretation is right can be based on the same merit that you know that yours is right. Everyday, I read the Bible and I ask God for wisdom and understanding in everything that I read. The word tells me to “study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” If someone is telling me that I’m wrong, I can’t back down when I KNOW the Spirit that lies in me leads and direct me, according to the will of God, and God doesn’t lead anyone wrong. That, you can put your life on. I take the Word for face value. I don’t read to deep, too lightly, or add my own into it (like tooooooo many “Christians” do nowadays.). Looking @ my post, I could have just summed it up with Proverbs 3:5-7

lol

Thanks, I laughed as well…, but not for the same reason. Actually, what you’re promoting is that your will be done, but not God’s will. You make your own religion, every day. This is not what God established, and certainly didn’t leave for us to do. It’s nice that you see Christ as important, however, you must take Christ for Who He is, not what you want Him to be.

Thanks for the laugh, but it comes with sadness as well, seeing that you, like so many others are confused about what to do, and rely on yourself. This is not God’s will, as He left the Church for you and I and all who love God. This is how we know the truth. Men either stand with the Church, or reject her. You have chosen to reject the Church, the Body of Christ, the Bride of Christ. How can you or anyone reconcile this error with that of God’s holy Will? You can’t, but doesn’t keep you from pridefully going on as you see fit. It is not how God saw fit for all of us. This is why you ramble on lost on the road, but act like you’re not lost… which is truly sad.

The spirit who guides you is obviously a spirit at odds with the Son of the Immaculate Conception, our Lord Jesus Christ. This name is Christ’s own words to blessed Josefa Menendez. It is how Christ asked her to determine if a spirit is for Him or opposed Him. Many spirits of darkness appear as spirits of light to fool those looking for spiritual guidance. Jesus warned her and asked her to verify. This is something you obviously do not check.

Sadlly, you boldly go in unlearnedness, insisting on avoiding our Lord, but defining Him as you want. You boldly reject His Church. You boldly reject His Sacraments. You boldly reject those whom He sent, and thereby reject Him… Your father must be proud, just as you are…, but the father of your actions is not our Father in Heaven.

 

[MDK]

Please consider: Jesus founded a Church, correct? Once founded, He gave authority to the Apostles. That same Church is “the pillar and foundation of the truth”, correct? So, as all early believers, and you and I must do, we go to the Church for interpretation of scripture - the one and the same Church which Jesus founded for you and I. To ask for a spirit to guide you is to invite every spirit of this world to have a crack at you.

The Holy Spirit unites.
The demon divides.

Christ’s peace.

Well put… not that the errant person will listen. If they won’t listen to God, why would they listen to those who truly follow God as He prescribed. You are obviously not high and mighty like those who use their freedoms to define God, rather than just listen.

 

[JRKH]

Please consider: Jesus founded a Church, correct? Once founded, He gave authority to the Apostles. That same Church is “the pillar and foundation of the truth”, correct? So, as all early believers, and you and I must do, we go to the Church for interpretation of scripture - the one and the same Church which Jesus founded for you and I. To ask for a spirit to guide you is to invite every spirit of this world to have a crack at you.

The Holy Spirit unites.
The demon divides.

Christ’s peace.

Jesus Prayed that we be one - Paul asked in several letters for believers to be “of one mind”.
Jesus gave us a visible Church to deal with issues of sin (which includes spreading false doctrine). We are to “Tell it to the Church” and abide by the ruling of The Church. That is WHY it is the “Pillar and Foundation of Truth”

Peace
James

 

[guanophore]

I suggest you go the the 3 baptism study I have posted. I challenge all to do the study and then prove it wrong. It is said how so many will argue, but have not proof. The Word of God proves itself. It cannot be torn assunder.

“People can be educated into imbecility” - Fr. John Corapi

Any kind of study that departs the One Divine Deposit of Faith that God gave to the Church will only lead the person further and further away from the Truth.

What we have been given is a way of believing that comes from Christ. It is easy to distort this with our own forumlations and mental machinations. Divine truth is revealed. It is not the product of human rational “proofs”.

All of you here say that water baptism saves a man, but it does not. The baptism into Christ through his blood is what saves a man. You try to change the baptism of blood spoken of in Romans 6 and make it into water baptism, but it is not.

No, it is not a “change” for us. We understand that in baptism, we are joined with Christ in His death. It is, indeed, His blood that is shed for the remission of our sins. We are joined in it through the washing of regeneration.

Believe the Word of God. Turn from the doctrines of men. Seek God and you will find him.

CAF is not a venue for you to evangelize, heis. We are not here so that you can attempt to convert us into “bible christians”. I suggest that you read the forum rules. If you have questions about the Catholic faith, we can answer them. If you do not, then you can participate in discussion so long as you observe the guidelines of the site. Pulling Catholics away from their faith is not an appropriate form of participation here.

 

[jahsoul]

Please consider: Jesus founded a Church, correct? Once founded, He gave authority to the Apostles. That same Church is “the pillar and foundation of the truth”, correct? So, as all early believers, and you and I must do, we go to the Church for interpretation of scripture - the one and the same Church which Jesus founded for you and I. To ask for a spirit to guide you is to invite every spirit of this world to have a crack at you.

The Holy Spirit unites.
The demon divides.

Christ’s peace.

shakes hand

Clarification on that. I don’t ask any spirit to guide me. As believers, we should have the Holy Spirit in us and that’s what I allow to guide me. I don’t anything from the foundation but the same Jesus that founded the church is the same Jesus that said that we will do greater works than even he if we believe. Now if we believe but don’t have spiritual eyes to see the word, something isn’t lining up. Like I always say, you can take majority of the word at face value. But spiritual eyes give deeper understanding. This can come from the shepherd of the church or directly from God.

 

[MDK]

shakes hand

Clarification on that. I don’t ask any spirit to guide me. As believers, we should have the Holy Spirit in us and that’s what I allow to guide me. I don’t anything from the foundation but the same Jesus that founded the church is the same Jesus that said that we will do greater works than even he if we believe. Now if we believe but don’t have spiritual eyes to see the word, something isn’t lining up. Like I always say, you can take majority of the word at face value. But spiritual eyes give deeper understanding. This can come from the shepherd of the church or directly from God.

It would be nice if you actually followed Christ in truth. Sadly when you oppose the Catholic Church, you push with the gates of Hell. Christ didn’t give you any authority to interpret on your own, especially in opposition to what the Apostles taught. Why do you oppose those whom Christ sent, thereby opposing Christ?

 

[po18guy]

shakes hand

Clarification on that. I don’t ask any spirit to guide me. As believers, we should have the Holy Spirit in us and that’s what I allow to guide me. I don’t anything from the foundation but the same Jesus that founded the church is the same Jesus that said that we will do greater works than even he if we believe. Now if we believe but don’t have spiritual eyes to see the word, something isn’t lining up. Like I always say, you can take majority of the word at face value. But spiritual eyes give deeper understanding. This can come from the shepherd of the church or directly from God.

Yes, but the evil one is a liar and the father of lies. He emulates the Holy Spirit daily - that’s his job. Our job is to trust the Church which is guided by the Holy Spirit so that we need not wonder or worry. Scripture warns us in several places that many false christs, false teachers, false prophets and spirits of antichrist have gone out into the world. Unless one is divinely gifted in the testing of these spirits, how do you know which is actually leading you? A “good feeling” is not a satisfactory test. Eve had a good feeling when she reached for the forbidden fruit.

We must trust implicitly that Church which Christ founded for us. It is eternal and has done all of the hard work for us. Recall also that Christ taught us to do three things in order to follow Him: 1. Deny ourselves (our preferences, our desires, our wants). After that: 2. Take up our cross daily (whatever burdens us: ego, lack of obedience, sinful desires, etc). Then, and only then, are we to 3. follow Him.

Our error is when we try to take a shortcut around this perfect advice, when the only shortcut is through it.

Christ’s peace be with you on your journey. Amen!

 

[jahsoul]

Thanks, I laughed as well…, but not for the same reason. Actually, what you’re promoting is that your will be done, but not God’s will. You make your own religion, every day. This is not what God established, and certainly didn’t leave for us to do. It’s nice that you see Christ as important, however, you must take Christ for Who He is, not what you want Him to be.

Thanks for the laugh, but it comes with sadness as well, seeing that you, like so many others are confused about what to do, and rely on yourself. This is not God’s will, as He left the Church for you and I and all who love God. This is how we know the truth. Men either stand with the Church, or reject her. You have chosen to reject the Church, the Body of Christ, the Bride of Christ. How can you or anyone reconcile this error with that of God’s holy Will? You can’t, but doesn’t keep you from pridefully going on as you see fit. It is not how God saw fit for all of us. This is why you ramble on lost on the road, but act like you’re not lost… which is truly sad.

Sadlly, you boldly go in unlearnedness, insisting on avoiding our Lord, but defining Him as you want. You boldly reject His Church. You boldly reject His Sacraments. You boldly reject those whom He sent, and thereby reject Him… Your father must be proud, just as you are…, but the father of your actions is not our Father in Heaven.

If I pray to God for understanding, how is MY will done? If I pray that God uses His spirit to lead and guide me, how is that off my will? I guess Solomon was all messed up then. I will to do His will. I can’t make my own religion if I’m a firm believer of Christ and what is said in the Bible. Point out in my comment where I went according to my own will and it’s not even assumed. I don’t reject his church because I’m a member of a Full Gospel, Bible believing church. What sacrament have I rejected, because if it is in the Word of God, I believe it. I don’t reject the shepherd that he has placed over the house because I know my role in the church. Jesus said that if we believe, we can do greater works than him, so how come that doesn’t include getting understanding about the Word? Paul didn’t attend church when he was converted, but the Bible say that he went preaching straightway after he received his sight. I’m on a lost road because I know the Spirit of God dwells in me and I don’t downgrade that. Church has it’s place but I never recalled it taking precedent over the Holy Spirit. Jesus talked about the Holy Ghost a lil bit more than the church. Read about the “Gifts of the Spirit.” Paul made it very clear that no one possesses them all. But I’m not talking to you from a podium, high and mighty. All I’ve given you is word. Nothing added…Don’t feel sad for me because that I do, I do with a clear conscience, free of any guilt because i know that I have the Word to back up every statement I’ve made.

 

[jahsoul]

It would be nice if you actually followed Christ in truth. Sadly when you oppose the Catholic Church, you push with the gates of Hell. Christ didn’t give you any authority to interpret on your own, especially in opposition to what the Apostles taught. Why do you oppose those whom Christ sent, thereby opposing Christ?

MDK…I didn’t opposed any church. I never said one derogatory statement about the Catholic Church, and I can assure you that Hell’s gates aren’t in my grasp. Who are you to say what Christ has given me? I have the same Holy Spirit within me that the apostles have. If the Holy Spirit differs from person to person, that means that God is a different being to each person, which is something that God won’t do. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. If every word that Jesus spake was only meant for the disciples, then why are we to follow what He say? If I recall, Jesus didn’t pray for just Himself and the disciples in John 17. We follow Jesus because every word that he spoke applied to everybody that believed. He manifested Himself to Paul and he gave deeper insight of church operations, including the spiritual side. Honestly, how does the Holy Spirit manifest itself in you?

 

[jahsoul]

Yes, but the evil one is a liar and the father of lies. He emulates the Holy Spirit daily - that’s his job. Our job is to trust the Church which is guided by the Holy Spirit so that we need not wonder or worry. Scripture warns us in several places that many false christs, false teachers, false prophets and spirits of antichrist have gone out into the world. Unless one is divinely gifted in the testing of these spirits, how do you know which is actually leading you? A “good feeling” is not a satisfactory test. Eve had a good feeling when she reached for the forbidden fruit.

We must trust implicitly that Church which Christ founded for us. It is eternal and has done all of the hard work for us. Recall also that Christ taught us to do three things in order to follow Him: 1. Deny ourselves (our preferences, our desires, our wants). After that: 2. Take up our cross daily (whatever burdens us: ego, lack of obedience, sinful desires, etc). Then, and only then, are we to 3. follow Him.

Our error is when we try to take a shortcut around this perfect advice, when the only shortcut is through it.

Christ’s peace be with you on your journey. Amen!

So let me get this straight. We don’t have the Holy Spirit, the church does? False, Acts 2 lets us know that the Holy Spirit is available to us from God. Not to us from the church from God. And I’m here to let you know, the church didn’t die on the cross for the remissions of our sin. That was the hard work. True, Christ taught those three things but before he ascended, he gave a more instruction. And we don’t test spirits. The true, Spirit filled believer has discernment. (1 Cor. 2). And it’s a little more than a good feeling. Well, a WHOLE lot more!

 

[guanophore]

If I pray to God for understanding, how is MY will done? If I pray that God uses His spirit to lead and guide me, how is that off my will?

because it all goes through your own perceptions

I guess Solomon was all messed up then.

No, it is your perception of him that is. He prayed that prayer when he was walking in the faith taught to him by his family and the priests.

. I can’t make my own religion if I’m a firm believer of Christ and what is said in the Bible.

On the contrary, believing this falsehood is in fact what has created so many religions. Good men, of sincere heart and spirit, most unwittingly departed from the Apostolic faith.

I don’t reject his church because I’m a member of a Full Gospel, Bible believing church. What sacrament have I rejected, because if it is in the Word of God, I believe it. I dpn’t reject the shepherd that he has placed over the house

You have, but I understand that you don’t realize it. You think that you attend a Church. You don’t realize that it is not founded by Christ.

because I know my role in the church. Jesus said that if we believe, we can do greater works than him, so how come that doesn’t include getting understanding about the Word?

No, you clearly do not know your role in the Church.

Yes, we do need to get understanding from the Word. However, it should not be separated from the faith that was delivered to the Church.

Paul didn’t attend church when he was converted, but the Bible say that he went preaching straightway after he received his sight.

How did Paul receive his sight? How did he get baptized? Of course he went to the Church! Actually, God sent the Church to him. How do you think he learned the eucharistic prayer? He learned it from the Church!

I’m on a lost road because I know the Spirit of God dwells in me and I don’t downgrade that.

Truer words have never been written! Everyone thinks he is led by the Spirit, even if it takes one in a direction opposite of the Apostolic teaching.

All I’ve given you is word. Nothing added…Don’t feel sad for me because that I do, I do with a clear conscience, free of any guilt because i know that I have the Word to back up every statement I’ve made.

Why did you come here?

 

[po18guy]

So let me get this straight. We don’t have the Holy Spirit, the church does? False, Acts 2 lets us know that the Holy Spirit is available to us from God. Not to us from the church from God. And I’m here to let you know, the church didn’t die on the cross for the remissions of our sin. That was the hard work. True, Christ taught those three things but before he ascended, he gave a more instruction. And we don’t test spirits. The true, Spirit filled believer has discernment. (1 Cor. 2). And it’s a little more than a good feeling. Well, a WHOLE lot more!

NO! Not at all. We are temples of the Holy Spirit. However, when it comes to matters of being lead one way into all truth, we are to turn to the Church, which is the pillar and foundation of truth. It is exactly as Christ founded it. We, as individuals, are susceptible to the leading of any and all spirits, as they all arrive in the guise of goodness - but some are lying and jump at the chance to lead us astray.

Your method might work 99 times out of 100. But…

How can you know? Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to lead His Church into all truth - not to lead each individual. As individuals, we are to rely on His Church. To rely on the self is to indulge the self, rather than to deny the self. I know this is not a popular, contemporary method in self-reliant America and some other nations, but it is what we are called to do.

 

[jahsoul]

because it all goes through your own perceptions

No, it is your perception of him that is. He prayed that prayer when he was walking in the faith taught to him by his family and the priests.

On the contrary, believing this falsehood is in fact what has created so many religions. Good men, of sincere heart and spirit, most unwittingly departed from the Apostolic faith.

You have, but I understand that you don’t realize it. You think that you attend a Church. You don’t realize that it is not founded by Christ.

No, you clearly do not know your role in the Church.

Yes, we do need to get understanding from the Word. However, it should not be separated from the faith that was delivered to the Church.

How did Paul receive his sight? How did he get baptized? Of course he went to the Church! Actually, God sent the Church to him. How do you think he learned the eucharistic prayer? He learned it from the Church!

Truer words have never been written! Everyone thinks he is led by the Spirit, even if it takes one in a direction opposite of the Apostolic teaching.

Why did you come here?

1. If God gives wisdom and understanding, it can no way be my own perception. If so, the one that teaches you is using their own perception because the Bible say that God has dealt man THE measure of faith and we have different gifts according to the grace given. (Romans 12)
2. So, Solomon’s request for wisdom wasn’t needed. And honestly, I walk in the faith that Jesus was the son of God and he died, was buried, and resurrected for our sins and through that faith, I have the grace given.
3. I said that I’m a firm believer of Christ and the Bible. If you really think that is falsehood.
   It’s really nothing more I can add to that. If I’m not supposed to go by those 2 authorities, then who? The apostles…but wait, they were taught by Jesus.
4. I reject church because I know a church doesn’t save, God does? LOL. I don’t attend church? So where do I go to hear the word? mmm. Even though we are a FULL GOSPEL…in other words, what the Bible say, it is. Didn’t the veil being ripped represent something? yeah, that I didn’t have to make sacrifices or have someone else go the Father for us. We have a direct connection with God through Jesus.
5. Read 1 Cor. 12 and Romans 12, please.
6. Baptizing huh? So according to your statement, I can say John the Baptist started the church? Miracles and prayer? Moses and David? You see how that can turn out.
7. How I know I’m not lost. Because Jesus said that we will receive the Holy Ghost if we…? It’s in the Word as bright as day.
8. I actually came here because I found the site interesting. I was researching something and google sent me here. You way you come to me isn’t the way I come to you. Jesus said judge lest ye be judge, and on the same measure. So what you are telling me, kind of apply to your own life. It’s more than internetting with me. This is my life. I die daily so the Christ in me live. I’m not going to tell you that you are wrong, because I don’t know. But I follow what the word say.

 

[jahsoul]

NO! Not at all. We are temples of the Holy Spirit. However, when it comes to matters of being lead one way into all truth, we are to turn to the Church, which is the pillar and foundation of truth. It is exactly as Christ founded it. We, as individuals, are susceptible to the leading of any and all spirits, as they all arrive in the guise of goodness - but some are lying and jump at the chance to lead us astray.

Your method might work 99 times out of 100. But…

How can you know? Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to lead His Church into all truth - not to lead each individual. As individuals, we are to rely on His Church. To rely on the self is to indulge the self, rather than to deny the self. I know this is not a popular, contemporary method in self-reliant America and some other nations, but it is what we are called to do.

I don’t have a method. And if a man/woman is over the church, they are susceptible to sin because all have sin and fallen short of the glory of God. We learn that the flesh is still present. If this afflicted Paul (O wretched man…look it up), what makes the head of today’s church different. Peter fell to hypocrisy. The church didn’t save me. Point blank. I rely (as the apostles taught) on the Holy Spirit that is on the inside of me. Read Acts 15:8-9. Like I said earlier, the same Holy Ghost that was in the pillars of the church resides in me, because I took heed to the word that Jesus died for my sins and was raised on the third day, repented, turned from my evil ways, was baptized in the name of Jesus for the remissions of my sins, and I was filled with the Holy Ghost. You can bring up the churches and that’s fine and well, but what was preached on the day of Pentecost is essential.