Protestants: How Do You Know That Your Interpretation of the Bible is the Right one? Part II

[MDK]

If I pray to God for understanding, how is MY will done? If I pray that God uses His spirit to lead and guide me, how is that off my will? I guess Solomon was all messed up then. I will to do His will. I can’t make my own religion if I’m a firm believer of Christ and what is said in the Bible. Point out in my comment where I went according to my own will and it’s not even assumed. I don’t reject his church because I’m a member of a Full Gospel, Bible believing church. What sacrament have I rejected, because if it is in the Word of God, I believe it. I don’t reject the shepherd that he has placed over the house because I know my role in the church. Jesus said that if we believe, we can do greater works than him, so how come that doesn’t include getting understanding about the Word? Paul didn’t attend church when he was converted, but the Bible say that he went preaching straightway after he received his sight. I’m on a lost road because I know the Spirit of God dwells in me and I don’t downgrade that. Church has it’s place but I never recalled it taking precedent over the Holy Spirit. Jesus talked about the Holy Ghost a lil bit more than the church. Read about the “Gifts of the Spirit.” Paul made it very clear that no one possesses them all. But I’m not talking to you from a podium, high and mighty. All I’ve given you is word. Nothing added…Don’t feel sad for me because that I do, I do with a clear conscience, free of any guilt because i know that I have the Word to back up every statement I’ve made.

One doesn’t follow from the other… namely, that you can quote Scripture absolutely has no relation at all to your clams of what it means. Satan quotes Scripture as well, but not to promote true teachings. I do feel sad for you, because you really don’t get it. You have a prideful approach to God, and seek your own interpretations. Many who say they pray to God, are only praying to themselves. If the Spirit of God is truly guiding you, then you would not oppose His Church. Evidence is the opposite, so it’s not the Spririt of God guiding you, but some other. We know you by your fruits. These have made evident what you fail to recognize. You do not know Christ, because you don’t understand what the Bible teaches. The Bible doesn’t teach its own truths. It only makes sense in the context of Catholicism. It is our Book. The Bible was written by Catholics, in the context of Catholicism for Catholics. The Scriptures were assembled into the Bible by the Catholic Church. When you take it out of context of the Church, you will never truly know what it teaches. Evidence of this is from what you write. Your pride leads you into your interpretations. These are not of the Holy Spirit, else they would be what the Church teaches infallilbly. You will never really know Christ, unless you first realize you are on the wrong track now. Only in His Church is the fullness of revealed truth taught. Every time you oppose Church teaching, and tell us that you’re guided by the Holy Spirit, we know you’re out of touch with reality. The greatest reality is God. Sadly, you do not know what He revealed about Himself. Therefore, you are and will remain out of touch until you humbly seek Him. If you truly do pray to God humbly, instead of placing yourself in the role of authority, then you will begin to see His Church and come to it. Until you do, then you are deluding yourself by opposing His Church. Come to the true light for the world.

 

[MDK]

MDK…I didn’t opposed any church. I never said one derogatory statement about the Catholic Church, and I can assure you that Hell’s gates aren’t in my grasp. Who are you to say what Christ has given me? I have the same Holy Spirit within me that the apostles have. If the Holy Spirit differs from person to person, that means that God is a different being to each person, which is something that God won’t do. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. If every word that Jesus spake was only meant for the disciples, then why are we to follow what He say? If I recall, Jesus didn’t pray for just Himself and the disciples in John 17. We follow Jesus because every word that he spoke applied to everybody that believed. He manifested Himself to Paul and he gave deeper insight of church operations, including the spiritual side. Honestly, how does the Holy Spirit manifest itself in you?

One does not need to make blatant derogotory satements to oppose something or someone. You oppose the Church teachings. You claim things that are in opposition to God’s Church. When you teach in opposition to the Church, indicating that the Church teachings are wrong, you are wittingly or unwittingly pushing with the gates of Hell aganst Satan’s greatest enemy on earth, Christ’s one true Church.

I am a temple of the Holy Spirit, and I receive Christ whole and entire in the Eucharist. I am a tabernacle, a home for Christ even though imperfect. I listen to those whom Christ sent, and accept them, thereby accepting Christ. I believe in all the teachings of Christ’s infallble teaching Church. I love God above all, and seek in faith to do what Christ asked of us, with commitment to Him and in obedience.

How can you or anyone say they have the Holy Spirit and that the Holy Spirit is guiding you in teachings which are in fact in opposition to Christ’s true teachings? It really doesn’'t make sense, unless you’re considering the unthinkable. You really need to consider this prayerfully to our Father, discerning who is really leading you into false teachings. Please do this for your own sake.

 

[Always_For_Him]

Always for Him: Bravo, bravo; you managed to dance around every question in post#478, and basically said nothing about anything; other than blather on about the catholic church! So which washes away sin; the blood of Christ, baptism by water, preferably full immersion like Jesus did, or a combination of both? Okay, let me ask the question a different way; let’s say that I decide to join the catholic church on say, the 12th of never. And I decide that I don’t need to go to confession; how would I be received by the church, priests, etc? And to really know the Truth, one is better off going to the source:Jesus , because He is the TRUTH! Maybe you should look in the mirror before accusing people of not being true Christians! Only God knows what’s in someone’s heart:thumbsup:

1beleevr,

I didn’t go into detail because it was late and it just seems that this subject has been explained over and over again. The Apostles, their successors and all of the earliest Christmas believed that baptism was a sacrament instituted by Christ to wipe away all original and acutal sin. No Christian for the first 1500 years believed that baptism was only a symbolic washing.

When we are baptized, the life of God, called sanctifying grace is infused into the soul, and a person is born again of water and the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:5). Jesus made baptism a condition for entering heaven (Jn 3:5; Mk 16:16). In Acts 2:8, St. Peter says that through baptism our sins are forgiven and we receive the Holy Spirit. St. Paul says that we are given new life (regeneration) through baptism (Rom 6:4). Titus 3:5 tells us that we are saved “by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit,” which refers to baptism. 1 Peter 3:20-21 says: “Baptism…now saves you.”

Fundamentalists confuse the baptism of Jesus with the baptism of John the Baptist. John’s baptism was only a symbolic washing. However, John says that Jesus’ baptism would give the Holy Spirit whereas his own did not (Mt 3:11). At the time of the Reformation, many Protestants rejected baptism as a sacrament of regeration because it dod not fit with their new and unorthodox notion of justification by faith alone.

Jesus would not have made baptism a condition for entering heaven if it were only symbolic. The writings of the ECF’s show that they all taught that water baptism regenerates. Jesus established the sacraments to give us grace when we followed His commandments, and called on Him during the sacrament. He promised that He would provide what is being requested when we acted in accordance to His commands when participating in the sacraments. That is not His only way, but it is His gift to us so that we can experience His grace.

The idea that baptism is only a symbolic washing arose centuries later with the Reformation. This is a less than 500 year-old Protestant teaching.

 

[po18guy]

I don’t have a method. And if a man/woman is over the church, they are susceptible to sin because all have sin and fallen short of the glory of God. We learn that the flesh is still present. If this afflicted Paul (O wretched man…look it up), what makes the head of today’s church different. Peter fell to hypocrisy. The church didn’t save me. Point blank. I rely (as the apostles taught) on the Holy Spirit that is on the inside of me. Read Acts 15:8-9. Like I said earlier, the same Holy Ghost that was in the pillars of the church resides in me, because I took heed to the word that Jesus died for my sins and was raised on the third day, repented, turned from my evil ways, was baptized in the name of Jesus for the remissions of my sins, and I was filled with the Holy Ghost. You can bring up the churches and that’s fine and well, but what was preached on the day of Pentecost is essential.

Christ did not found a bible. He founded a Church. We can accept it or reject it. As to His Church, we either believe Christ, or we think he is a liar. He promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. On that day, coming soon, when I sit in the judgment seat, I desire strongly to say in all truth that I accepted His Church. There was no church until Christ founded it. He did not need a Church - but He knows that we do.

You can accept your personal interpretation of scripture, but you will be wrong, just as I will be wrong in the same situation. There is a Church to keep us all on the level. Without it, we are like a small boat tossed about on the sea. Deny yourself.

God bless you on your journey.

 

[Thorwald]

Christ did not found a bible. He founded a Church. We can accept it or reject it. As to His Church, we either believe Christ, or we think he is a liar. He promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. On that day, coming soon, when I sit in the judgment seat, I desire strongly to say in all truth that I accepted His Church. There was no church until Christ founded it. He did not need a Church - but He knows that we do.

You can accept your personal interpretation of scripture, but you will be wrong, just as I will be wrong in the same situation. There is a Church to keep us all on the level. Without it, we are like a small boat tossed about on the sea. Deny yourself.

God bless you on your journey.

Jesus Christ, is The Word In The Flesh. He came to witness the truth of The Word. The Word consists of both spoken and written Word of God. This **Word **gives us our history (books of Moses), God’s prophecy, instructions, promises, etc., that sets the ‘parameters’ that we are to live within. Without The Word, a church would be meaningless. A church provides a meeting place, through which we can hear The Word, and worship God. No man or church owns The Word, for The Word is God.

 

[po18guy]

Jesus Christ, is The Word In The Flesh. He came to witness the truth of The Word. The Word consists of both spoken and written Word of God. This **Word **gives us our history (books of Moses), God’s prophecy, instructions, promises, etc., that sets the ‘parameters’ that we are to live within. Without The Word, a church would be meaningless. A church provides a meeting place, through which we can hear The Word, and worship God. No man or church owns The Word, for The Word is God.

So, Jesus did not found a Church?

 

[Thorwald]

So, Jesus did not found a Church?

Any meeting place that provides an opportunity to hear God’s Word and discuss it, is His Church, providing that His Word has not been changed.

 

[JRKH]

Any meeting place that provides an opportunity to hear God’s Word and discuss it, is His Church, providing that His Word has not been changed.

I’m afraid that you are confusing “the building” with “The Church” just as others confuse “the assembley” with “The Church”.

When Christ said to Peter, “Upon this Rock I will build my Church”, He was not saying that he was going to buiild a “Building” on top of Peter.
Instead He was building a community. Even More He was establishing a “Kingdom”. A Kingdom has Authority and has ministers who act on the King’s behalf to guide and govern the Kings faithful subjects. They also act on the king’s behalf to protect His Holdings, uphold His laws and interpret those Laws.
AND
Since the King knew he would not be physically present for some time to come, He established a “Steward”, or as we refer to it today, a “Vicar” to act in His stead.
This Vicar works dilligently with the other ministers of the Kingdom to assure that All that has been Given to them is protected. That includes subjects, and the wealth that we refer to as the “Deposit of Faith”.

I have never heard of any kingdom, let alone a worldwide one, where EVERY Subject felt He had the right to PERSONALLY interpret the kings Laws for himself, and reject the Kings appointed ministers if they don’t happen to agree with the decisions made by those appointed ministers.

Now you may disagree with certain “Laws” in a kingdom, but your loyalty to teh King keeps you obedient to the ministers. If the ministers are acting contrary to the Just King, it is the King who will deal harshly with them.

Peace
James

 

[Thorwald]

I’m afraid that you are confusing “the building” with “The Church” just as others confuse “the assembley” with “The Church”.

When Christ said to Peter, “Upon this Rock I will build my Church”, He was not saying that he was going to buiild a “Building” on top of Peter.
Instead He was building a community. Even More He was establishing a “Kingdom”. A Kingdom has Authority and has ministers who act on the King’s behalf to guide and govern the Kings faithful subjects. They also act on the king’s behalf to protect His Holdings, uphold His laws and interpret those Laws.
AND
Since the King knew he would not be physically present for some time to come, He established a “Steward”, or as we refer to it today, a “Vicar” to act in His stead.
This Vicar works dilligently with the other ministers of the Kingdom to assure that All that has been Given to them is protected. That includes subjects, and the wealth that we refer to as the “Deposit of Faith”.

I have never heard of any kingdom, let alone a worldwide one, where EVERY Subject felt He had the right to PERSONALLY interpret the kings Laws for himself, and reject the Kings appointed ministers if they don’t happen to agree with the decisions made by those appointed ministers.

Now you may disagree with certain “Laws” in a kingdom, but your loyalty to teh King keeps you obedient to the ministers. If the ministers are acting contrary to the Just King, it is the King who will deal harshly with them.

Peace
James

Did Solomon not become the richest man on earth, because he sought wisdom directly from God, instead of listening to others? All through biblical history, we find that those ‘in charge’ of God’s word, have changed His word in some way. I personally believe, that this is also so today. When we start ‘chasing a church’, instead of ‘chasing God’s Word’, we are in fact straying fom the truth. If we are in doubt about any scripture, we should ask God for an understanding. This alleviates the possibility of ‘vanity’ entering God’s Word.

 

[po18guy]

Any meeting place that provides an opportunity to hear God’s Word and discuss it, is His Church, providing that His Word has not been changed.

Clearly, God’s Word has been changed. When Christ founded His Church, there was no “bulding” or physical structure in place for worship of Him, since the Pharisees made all such worship illegal. He meant something else.

I seek your private opinion here: what is Christ’s church? A building? or His Sacred body of believers, united in faith and belief, as He prayed to the Father?

 

[po18guy]

Did Solomon not become the richest man on earth, because he sought wisdom directly from God, instead of listening to others?

Tell us, who was the intercessor in Solomon’s day?

All through biblical history, we find that those ‘in charge’ of God’s word, have changed His word in some way.

You mean the heretics? Oh, yes. Paul warned against them constantly.

I personally believe, that this is also so today.

So, you are the founder of the Thorwaldian church. Tell me how you deny yourself in order to be a member. You cannot follow Christ without first denying yourself. He said this as recorded in Matthew 16:24, Mark 8:34 and Luke 9:23. How do you deny yourself?

When we start ‘chasing a church’, instead of ‘chasing God’s Word’, we are in fact straying fom the truth.

Right you are! The Church Christ founded, as He said, still exists, and His Word - in fact, Jesus Himself, resides there. To chase around to other congregations which claim to be His Church is crazy, isn’t it?

If we are in doubt about any scripture, we should ask God for an understanding. This alleviates the possibility of ‘vanity’ entering God’s Word.

Except the bible prohibits this! Please read and reflect on 2 Peter 2:20. Private interpretation is a cancer eating at Christ’s Sacred Body. It has shattered Him into tiny little disagreeing pieces and has given the evil one a great foothold.

 

[Thorwald]

Clearly, God’s Word has been changed. When Christ founded His Church, there was no “bulding” or physical structure in place for worship of Him, since the Pharisees made all such worship illegal. He meant something else.

I seek your private opinion here: what is Christ’s church? A building? or His Sacred body of believers, united in faith and belief, as He prayed to the Father?

Of course, He, and His followers, with Him being the head. This means, those that believe in every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God, as is spoken and written under His authority, by whom He, Himself, and His Father, have authorized to do so.

Who are we, to decide for God, as to who He chooses to carry out His work? It has nothing to do with any specific faith. Let Him decide.

 

[Thorwald]

Tell us, who was the intercessor in Solomon’s day? You mean the heretics? Oh, yes. Paul warned against them constantly.So, you are the founder of the Thorwaldian church. Tell me how you deny yourself in order to be a member. You cannot follow Christ without first denying yourself. He said this as recorded in Matthew 16:24, Mark 8:34 and Luke 9:23. How do you deny yourself?Right you are! The Church Christ founded, as He said, still exists, and His Word - in fact, Jesus Himself, resides there. To chase around to other congregations which claim to be His Church is crazy, isn’t it? Except the bible prohibits this! Please read and reflect on 2 Peter 2:20. Private interpretation is a cancer eating at Christ’s Sacred Body. It has shattered Him into tiny little disagreeing pieces and has given the evil one a great foothold.

You are evidently so hung up on this ‘catholic’ thing, that you cannot see nor understand the whole word of God. I belong to no specific faith group. I have listened to many ‘preachers’ and attended many different churches, all of which believe in Christ as their saviour. I have yet to find a single minister, that has not somehow changed the written word in order to follow his own faith’s beliefs and understanding.

We have to remember, that even the ‘small’ act of adding incense to an offering, resulted in the death of Aaron’s two sons, because God had not commanded them to do so. There are many passages in the Bible, that require some form of thought, in order to interpret them properly. If you believe that God is your Father, why are you afraid to ask Him for the proper interpretation of His Word? Why are you relying on another person’s interpretation? If you want examples of what I am trying to say, take a look at my thread “Rev. Chpt 4.-Who is on the Throne?”. There are many possible improper interpretations of the scriptures listed in this thread.

P.S. The Holy Ghost has always made intercessions for us.

 

[JRKH]

Did Solomon not become the richest man on earth, because he sought wisdom directly from God, instead of listening to others?

Was not Solomon a King Himself?? Who should he have listened to when he was the most powerful man in the kingdom?
That being said I would suspect that Solomon, like any other king or high office holder, did in fact listen to others in addition to seeking wisdom directly from God.

All through biblical history, we find that those ‘in charge’ of God’s word, have changed His word in some way. I personally believe, that this is also so today.

Part of the reason that you sense this is that is because, under the concept of Sola Scriptura, many people wind up trying to “re-invent the wheel”. They read Scripture, but don’t take into account the long history of Christianity, Christian Thought and Christian Teaching. This results in people pulling some, “New” interpretation from the text. They inevitiably believe that the Holy Spirit gave them this guidance, even if the interpretation contradicts other interpretations of the same text. Thus they make the Holy Spirit the Author of confusion and chaos. The Church on the other hand, provides the structure within which ideas can be thrashed out and decisions reached that maintain the unity which Christ Prayed for.

When we start ‘chasing a church’, instead of ‘chasing God’s Word’, we are in fact straying fom the truth.

This, number one, assumes that I am “chasing a church” and two, that the two, chuch and word, are mutually exclusive. Heither assumption is correct.

If we are in doubt about any scripture, we should ask God for an understanding. This alleviates the possibility of ‘vanity’ entering God’s Word.

Your statement again makes a false assumption, that being that there is no other resourse than “asking God” for understanding and waiting in a vacuum for the answer.
Do you presume that there have been no other people, in the last 2000 years of Christian thought, who have asked the same question and gotten a reliable answer? So the idea that one can BOTH ask God for understanding AND seek answers in other writings and teachings which belong to the deposit of faith is perfectly legitimate.
If, as you say, we should simply and prayerfully ask God for understanding, then why do even Protestant ministers go to seminary and study, not just the Bible, but other writers of spiritual texts? Obviously your opinionis in the minority.

Your second error assumes that Asking God for guidance eliminates the possiblity of “vanity”. This has been shown to be false any number of times. An extreme example of this would be the Jim Jones affair. If those people had been catholic they would not have died when and where they did. Jim Jones, as well as those who followed himn believed that he was guided by the Holy Spirit.

Christ’s Kingdom is rich in writings and commentary, preserved by Christ’s Church. Should we ignore this great treasury of thought?

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

You are evidently so hung up on this ‘catholic’ thing, that you cannot see nor understand the whole word of God. I belong to no specific faith group. I have listened to many ‘preachers’ and attended many different churches, all of which believe in Christ as their saviour. I have yet to find a single minister, that has not somehow changed the written word in order to follow his own faith’s beliefs and understanding.

Question - Have you attended the Catholic Mass?

We have to remember, that even the ‘small’ act of adding incense to an offering, resulted in the death of Aaron’s two sons, because God had not commanded them to do so. There are many passages in the Bible, that require some form of thought, in order to interpret them properly. If you believe that God is your Father, why are you afraid to ask Him for the proper interpretation of His Word? Why are you relying on another person’s interpretation? If you want examples of what I am trying to say, take a look at my thread “Rev. Chpt 4.-Who is on the Throne?”. There are many possible improper interpretations of the scriptures listed in this thread.

P.S. The Holy Ghost has always made intercessions for us.

I agree that we should be very careful to follow God’s commands.
Since one of those commands was to “Tell it To the Church” when your bother sins(Matthew 18:15-18), then we should do so, don’t you agree?
And just to be clear here, spreading a false doctrine IS a sin.

So, since we are to take such disagreements to The Church, how do you suggest we proceed?

Peace
James

 

[SteveGC]

You are evidently so hung up on this ‘catholic’ thing, that you cannot see nor understand the whole word of God.

That has to be the most paradoxical thing I’ve heard all week

I belong to no specific faith group. I have listened to many ‘preachers’ and attended many different churches, all of which believe in Christ as their saviour. I have yet to find a single minister, that has not somehow changed the written word in order to follow his own faith’s beliefs and understanding.

Well, I’ll assume they haven’t changed the actual words themselves, but rather the meaning of those words, yes? The question then is, from what authentic, original meaning of the word did these others change it? In other words, what meaning are you going by, to determine that the other meanings you hear are incorrect, or “have been changed”?

There are many passages in the Bible, that require some form of thought, in order to interpret them properly.

some form of thought? really? A 2000 year old text requires some form of thought to be understood fully…thanks for that insight. Sorry to sound sarcastic, but I have to chuckle at those who presume the perspicuity of Scripture, as if the story of salvation jumps off the pages at anyone putting just “some form of thought” into it. Scripture requires quite a bit more than “some form of thought”. Try an accompanying human authority, appointed by Christ Himself…that’s a little closer to what it takes to interpret Scripture properly.

If you believe that God is your Father, why are you afraid to ask Him for the proper interpretation of His Word?

It’s not about being afraid. It’s about it being unnecessary. Why would I presume to interpret it in a vacuum, outside of the authority which canonized it for humanity, and continues to accompany it until the end of the age, properly interpreting ALL of Christ’s teachings for all mankind? More importantly, why would I attempt to reveal that which has already been revealed? Bible-only Christians live their lives assuming Truth is hidden within Scripture, and the truly prayerful, Spirit-led believer can unearth these salvific truths and then teach them to others. Bunk. Truth was revealed 2000 years ago. It’s not hidden in Scripture waiting for a believer to grab the book and find it. Truth was entrusted to a Church, a single Church. THAT’S where we go to find it. The Sacred Book accompanies Her, for it was inspirationally compiled and canonized by Her.

Why are you relying on another persons interpretation?

It’s not just “another person”, it’s The Church - far from just another person…She’s THE persons Christ entrusted to do so, and gifted with the Spirit of God to protect Her from error in doing so. The question is, how is it you think you’re not relying on another person’s interpretation? You may think you rely only on the Holy Spirit to guide you properly through Scripture, validating that which you hear from others, but the truth is that you, like me and everyone else, form your beliefs first from human teaching, eventually latching onto an interpretation which appeals to you, then that becomes the lens through which you prayerfully read Scripture. What matters is actually that we choose the authentic humans to follow, and not uninspired men with no link to the apostles, who talk a good game from the pulpit. And even when you think you are reading it without bias, using the Holy Spirit alone to show you truth, it is clear that this is not the intended use of Scripture. We’re not to approach Scripture with no prior, authentic formation, objecting to, and remaining outside of, Christ’s intended teaching authority. We’re to come to Scripture WITHIN these things. Then, and only then, do the proper interpretations reveal themselves…within the framework and teachings of the one Spirit-led Church.

If you believe you have properly interpreted Scripture (because you put your trust in Christ, and the indwelling of the Spirit), then what are you to make of other non-Catholics who read it with the exact same trust and prayerful intention, yet derive different interpretations than you? I dare say you cannot boastfully presume your trust and love for Christ is deeper than others have. Just as they cannot boast of theirs over yours. For that quality in a man is not measurable by others. And yet, reality reveals that deeply devotional and intently prayerful Christians who attempt to interpret Scripture like you do, quite frequently arrive at critical conflicting views of salvation and morals. It’s not a matter of inconsequential differences we’re talking about here. We’re talking about the hard facts that people who interpret Scripture outside The Church arrive at conclusions and beliefs which, if they get them wrong, have eternal consequences. What should we make of that?

 

[jahsoul]

One doesn’t follow from the other… namely, that you can quote Scripture absolutely has no relation at all to your clams of what it means. Satan quotes Scripture as well, but not to promote true teachings. I do feel sad for you, because you really don’t get it. You have a prideful approach to God, and seek your own interpretations. Many who say they pray to God, are only praying to themselves. If the Spirit of God is truly guiding you, then you would not oppose His Church. Evidence is the opposite, so it’s not the Spririt of God guiding you, but some other. We know you by your fruits. These have made evident what you fail to recognize. You do not know Christ, because you don’t understand what the Bible teaches. The Bible doesn’t teach its own truths. It only makes sense in the context of Catholicism. It is our Book. The Bible was written by Catholics, in the context of Catholicism for Catholics. The Scriptures were assembled into the Bible by the Catholic Church. When you take it out of context of the Church, you will never truly know what it teaches. Evidence of this is from what you write. Your pride leads you into your interpretations. These are not of the Holy Spirit, else they would be what the Church teaches infallilbly. You will never really know Christ, unless you first realize you are on the wrong track now. Only in His Church is the fullness of revealed truth taught. Every time you oppose Church teaching, and tell us that you’re guided by the Holy Spirit, we know you’re out of touch with reality. The greatest reality is God. Sadly, you do not know what He revealed about Himself. Therefore, you are and will remain out of touch until you humbly seek Him. If you truly do pray to God humbly, instead of placing yourself in the role of authority, then you will begin to see His Church and come to it. Until you do, then you are deluding yourself by opposing His Church. Come to the true light for the world.

To rebuttle your statement, you haven’t quoted scripture to back your claims. The scriptures that I have provided are point blank with no need for catechisms to answer something that the word made plain. I keep hearing the church, the church, the church but what about the basis of the church, which is God’s word. The Bible say that where two or three are gathered in His name, there I am in the midst. The only evidence that I am getting from you is you haven’t read the Word of God for yourself and you’ve only gotten the interpretation that other men have given you. When it comes to God, it is no pride in my heart nor have I displayed any form of pride. If knowing that the Spirit of God dwells within me and it leads and guides me (which the Word says it does, John 14, 15, 16). The Holy Spirit guides us the same way it did people in the Bible, so there is no way that I’m out of touch. You are correct in saying greatest reality is God and he dwells in his believers. And this may come as a shock but the bible wasn’t written by Catholics. The OT by Jews and the NT by Jewish Christians, who nowhere in “your book” refered to themselves as Catholic. If they did, please show me where and something written by them. And God has revealed himself. He revealed Himself in sending His only begotten son to take the sins of the world on His shoulder and bare it on the cross. In no way have I placed myself in the role of authority because I don’t hold authority in the church but being a humble servant of Christ affords me to stand firm to his word and don’t back down and if your foundation is secure, you won’t neither.

 

[jahsoul]

One does not need to make blatant derogotory satements to oppose something or someone. You oppose the Church teachings. You claim things that are in opposition to God’s Church. When you teach in opposition to the Church, indicating that the Church teachings are wrong, you are wittingly or unwittingly pushing with the gates of Hell aganst Satan’s greatest enemy on earth, Christ’s one true Church.

I am a temple of the Holy Spirit, and I receive Christ whole and entire in the Eucharist. I am a tabernacle, a home for Christ even though imperfect. I listen to those whom Christ sent, and accept them, thereby accepting Christ. I believe in all the teachings of Christ’s infallble teaching Church. I love God above all, and seek in faith to do what Christ asked of us, with commitment to Him and in obedience.

How can you or anyone say they have the Holy Spirit and that the Holy Spirit is guiding you in teachings which are in fact in opposition to Christ’s true teachings? It really doesn’'t make sense, unless you’re considering the unthinkable. You really need to consider this prayerfully to our Father, discerning who is really leading you into false teachings. Please do this for your own sake.

So choosing to follow the teachings of Jesus and what is written in the bible instead of the teachings of the church, I’m in opposition of your church? Well as Peter and John said, whether it be right in the sight of God to harken unto you more than unto God, you judge. sigh

If your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, it would manifest outward. That is what the gifts of the spirit is talking about. You keep bringing up infallble teaching Church but I guess a sermon was missed with coughcertaincasescough that have occured in the past. Protestants are above that because they have cases too. You put too much on the church and the human that runs the church. Read the word; God saves and the Church edifieth (builds).

Tell me, from your own experience, Christ’s true teaching. One word sums it up and the Word clearly states it.

What doesn’t make sense; the fact that the Holy Spirit leads and guides us and the Word tells us this or the fact that Holy Spirit supercedes the church or the fact that I haven’t recieved any scriptural reference from you.

 

[Thorwald]

Was not Solomon a King Himself?? Who should he have listened to when he was the most powerful man in the kingdom?
That being said I would suspect that Solomon, like any other king or high office holder, did in fact listen to others in addition to seeking wisdom directly from God.

Part of the reason that you sense this is that is because, under the concept of Sola Scriptura, many people wind up trying to “re-invent the wheel”. They read Scripture, but don’t take into account the long history of Christianity, Christian Thought and Christian Teaching. This results in people pulling some, “New” interpretation from the text. They inevitiably believe that the Holy Spirit gave them this guidance, even if the interpretation contradicts other interpretations of the same text. Thus they make the Holy Spirit the Author of confusion and chaos. The Church on the other hand, provides the structure within which ideas can be thrashed out and decisions reached that maintain the unity which Christ Prayed for.

This, number one, assumes that I am “chasing a church” and two, that the two, chuch and word, are mutually exclusive. Heither assumption is correct.

Your statement again makes a false assumption, that being that there is no other resourse than “asking God” for understanding and waiting in a vacuum for the answer.
Do you presume that there have been no other people, in the last 2000 years of Christian thought, who have asked the same question and gotten a reliable answer? So the idea that one can BOTH ask God for understanding AND seek answers in other writings and teachings which belong to the deposit of faith is perfectly legitimate.
If, as you say, we should simply and prayerfully ask God for understanding, then why do even Protestant ministers go to seminary and study, not just the Bible, but other writers of spiritual texts? Obviously your opinionis in the minority.

Your second error assumes that Asking God for guidance eliminates the possiblity of “vanity”. This has been shown to be false any number of times. An extreme example of this would be the Jim Jones affair. If those people had been catholic they would not have died when and where they did. Jim Jones, as well as those who followed himn believed that he was guided by the Holy Spirit.

Christ’s Kingdom is rich in writings and commentary, preserved by Christ’s Church. Should we ignore this great treasury of thought?

Peace
James

Your whole response (above) shows your own vanity & ignorance. Solomon was ‘rewarded’ by God, because Solomon did not want to lead God’s chosen people in error. He was afraid that his own understanding and vanity (and that of others), would result in him governing God’s people in a way that would be against the glorification of God. He humbled himself before God and his chosen people, seeking to please God, rather than man (including himself). This is why God was pleased, and rewarded him. This is written in the O/T scripture. Your response, is exactly the opposite.

 

[Thorwald]

That has to be the most paradoxical thing I’ve heard all week

Well, I’ll assume they haven’t changed the actual words themselves, but rather the meaning of those words, yes? The question then is, from what authentic, original meaning of the word did these others change it? In other words, what meaning are you going by, to determine that the other meanings you hear are incorrect, or “have been changed”?

some form of thought? really? A 2000 year old text requires some form of thought to be understood fully…thanks for that insight. Sorry to sound sarcastic, but I have to chuckle at those who presume the perspicuity of Scripture, as if the story of salvation jumps off the pages at anyone putting just “some form of thought” into it. Scripture requires quite a bit more than “some form of thought”. Try an accompanying human authority, appointed by Christ Himself…that’s a little closer to what it takes to interpret Scripture properly.

It’s not about being afraid. It’s about it being unnecessary. Why would I presume to interpret it in a vacuum, outside of the authority which canonized it for humanity, and continues to accompany it until the end of the age, properly interpreting ALL of Christ’s teachings for all mankind? More importantly, why would I attempt to reveal that which has already been revealed? Bible-only Christians live their lives assuming Truth is hidden within Scripture, and the truly prayerful, Spirit-led believer can unearth these salvific truths and then teach them to others. Bunk. Truth was revealed 2000 years ago. It’s not hidden in Scripture waiting for a believer to grab the book and find it. Truth was entrusted to a Church, a single Church. THAT’S where we go to find it. The Sacred Book accompanies Her, for it was inspirationally compiled and canonized by Her.

It’s not just “another person”, it’s The Church - far from just another person…She’s THE persons Christ entrusted to do so, and gifted with the Spirit of God to protect Her from error in doing so. The question is, how is it you think you’re not relying on another person’s interpretation? You may think you rely only on the Holy Spirit to guide you properly through Scripture, validating that which you hear from others, but the truth is that you, like me and everyone else, form your beliefs first from human teaching, eventually latching onto an interpretation which appeals to you, then that becomes the lens through which you prayerfully read Scripture. What matters is actually that we choose the authentic humans to follow, and not uninspired men with no link to the apostles, who talk a good game from the pulpit. And even when you think you are reading it without bias, using the Holy Spirit alone to show you truth, it is clear that this is not the intended use of Scripture. We’re not to approach Scripture with no prior, authentic formation, objecting to, and remaining outside of, Christ’s intended teaching authority. We’re to come to Scripture WITHIN these things. Then, and only then, do the proper interpretations reveal themselves…within the framework and teachings of the one Spirit-led Church.

If you believe you have properly interpreted Scripture (because you put your trust in Christ, and the indwelling of the Spirit), then what are you to make of other non-Catholics who read it with the exact same trust and prayerful intention, yet derive different interpretations than you? I dare say you cannot boastfully presume your trust and love for Christ is deeper than others have. Just as they cannot boast of theirs over yours. For that quality in a man is not measurable by others. And yet, reality reveals that deeply devotional and intently prayerful Christians who attempt to interpret Scripture like you do, quite frequently arrive at critical conflicting views of salvation and morals. It’s not a matter of inconsequential differences we’re talking about here. We’re talking about the hard facts that people who interpret Scripture outside The Church arrive at conclusions and beliefs which, if they get them wrong, have eternal consequences. What should we make of that?

Let me show you some areas, that ministers of various Christian faiths have problems with, and make their own assumptions (and therefore, preach their own beliefs);

1. The story of Melchisedec. (There is still confusion today)
2. Why was Christ unable to ‘die’ on the cross when He tried to? What happened, that made Him have to cry out to God?
3. What is the real understanding of Rev. 1:6?
4. What does Rev 3:14 mean, when it says that Christ is, “the beginning of the creation of God?”
5. Why is there no mention of The Holy Ghost in Isaiah 44:6, but 1 John 5:7 does?
6. What really is the truth behind the beginning (dinosaurs, 7 days of creation, the three basic races of mankind)?
7. Is Isaiah 9:6 a complete ‘command-type’ statement, or is the second half simply a prophecy? (Many ministers use the former (above) understanding.)
8. Is “The Godhead” equal to “The Trinity”? (ie. Is Isaiah 44:6 equal to 1 John 5:7?)

How much of the Word of God is missing? Are we “playing with less than a ‘full deck’?” Did the apostles understand everything that was taught to them? Did they ‘water The Word down’? Did they ‘insert’ some of their own feelings and beliefs? Did any of them instruct us to use rosaries, or make Mary equal to the Lord of Hosts or The Holy Ghost, giving her power to make intercessions for us?

There are many questions that seem simple at first, until a person tries to tie them into ‘all scripture’. Is it not appropriate to fear God, and seek answers from Him directly? We are faced with eternal life/death, based on our following of God’s Word. I have simply stated previously, that if I properly seek answers directly from God concerning difficult scripture, can I be found to be ‘evil’? I would assume not. I may in fact, be found evil, if I do not properly seek answers, since I had the opportunity, but was careless/lazy, and did not go the extra length when I had the chance (thus, I have no excuse). I would first seek understanding from a minister, but if I did not feel comfortable with his answer, I then go to God in prayer. He is my Father in heaven. It is His Word, and I fear breaking it, and teaching others in error (false prophet).