Protestants, Re: Baptism, Marriage, Forgivness of Sins 2 out of 3 is not good enough

[jay29]

And Catholics seem to ignore the Lord’s Prayer in which Jesus instructs us to ask forgiveness directly of God.

Only God forgives sin

Only God forgives sins.39 Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, “The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins” and exercises this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven."40 Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name.41

39 Cf. Mk 2:7.
40 Mk 2:5,10; Lk 7:48.
41 Cf. Jn 20:21-23

And where Jesus says we can be forgiven if we forgive others. And where James says to confess to one another for healing.

You seem not to understand the entire scope of sin and it’s effects. When you sin, you just don’t sin against God!

It seems to me that Peter may very well have used “the Keys” in Acts 2:38 to unlock, once and for all, the gates to the Kingdom.

Jesus gave Peter the Keys to Heaven. Jesus retains the Keys to death and hell.

 

[MrS]

This is question begging.

I would actually agree with you if not for all the…geez, I can’t think of a nice way to say this, so I’ll just say…stuff that has come out of Rome. If Popes or current Catholic teaching have taught error or been in direct contradiction to the Bible, then Papal Infallability cannot be true, and the whole thing falls apart. I say they have taught, and do teach, errors. We can make that a separate thread or I can provide an example in a PM, but IF the church has ever, even once, taught error, like I said, the whole thing falls apart.

A separate thread would be best… and even better if the thread limited discussion to one supposed error.

By the way… the Catholic Church is perfect. The people in it are not. So they are capable of error.

However,

The “negative” protection of the Holy Spirit has already been promised. And because of that … the Church cannot teach error (non-Truth) in matters of faith and morals and declare that error to be true.

One time they came close. Rather that be exact on the names, there was a Queen who was instrumental is getting a certain priest elected to the papacy… on the condition that he declare, as the pope to agree with her and declare the Trinity did not exist.

He was elevated.

He “changed his mind” and was exiled, and instead declared the Trinity as true Doctrine.

so…
back to the thread at hand.

 

[MrS]

And Catholics seem to ignore the Lord’s Prayer in which Jesus instructs us to ask forgiveness directly of God. And where Jesus says we can be forgiven if we forgive others. And where James says to confess to one another for healing.

It seems to me that Peter may very well have used “the Keys” in Acts 2:38 to unlock, once and for all, the gates to the Kingdom.

Actually the prayer was given in response to the question…

“…how (or teach us) should we pray…”

not “… how should we be forgiven, or where is God, or where is the kingdom…”

 

[ckempston]

Actually the prayer was given in response to the question…

“…how (or teach us) should we pray…”

not “… how should we be forgiven, or where is God, or where is the kingdom…”

So, what you’re saying is Jesus doesn’t mention forgiveness of sins in the Lord’s Prayer? Am I hearing your claim correctly?

 

[onetimeposter]

This about sums it up for me:

**John 20:22-23
**

And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

He gives the Apostles and their successors (by the laying on of hands) the POWER of the Holy Spirit to forgive sins in His Name…Name the other time when God breathes on people…

Ok, great thanks. ** Now seeing as you are solely relying on scripture, please produce the scripture that states that the only way to receive Gods forgiveness is by confessing to an ordained priest.**

 

[onetimeposter]

This about sums it up for me:

**John 20:22-23
**

And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

He gives the Apostles and their successors (by the laying on of hands) the POWER of the Holy Spirit to forgive sins in His Name…Name the other time when God breathes on people…

Please let me know where it is found in the Bible, that the only way to receive the forgiveness of sins is to confess to an ordained priest.

Thanks

 

[MrS]

Ok, great thanks. Now seeing as you are solely relying on scripture, please produce the scripture that states that the only way to receive Gods forgiveness is by confessing to an ordained priest.

Please produde the Scripture that states the only way the Church exists must be found in the Scriptures that post dated the Church by nearly 400 years.

or

Please produce the Scripture that abrogates the words of the Lord Himself to the Apostles when He breathed on them and gave them the power to absolve or retain.

 

[onetimeposter]

Please produde the Scripture that states the only way the Church exists must be found in the Scriptures that post dated the Church by nearly 400 years.

or

Please produce the Scripture that abrogates the words of the Lord Himself to the Apostles when He breathed on them and gave them the power to absolve or retain.

Your answering my question with a question?



Please produce the scripture that states that we must confess to an ordained priest.

Very fair question, considering the context of the OP.

Your question is irrelevant to the OP.

 

[MrS]

Your answering my question with a question?



Please produce the scripture that states that we must confess to an ordained priest.

Very fair question, considering the context of the OP.

Your question is irrelevant to the OP.

Each time a Catholic, here on a Catholic Site, tries to respond by referring to what the Catholic Church teaches, and the importance of the Tradition, the Scriptures, and the Magisterium as the three witness to the Truth…

you say irrelevant.



Your post was not a question.

Nor was mine… both were statements.

 

[jay29]

Ok, great thanks. ** Now seeing as you are solely relying on scripture, please produce the scripture** that states that the only way to receive Gods forgiveness is by confessing to an ordained priest.

1.) This speaks for and stands by itself. Assail it:

Only God forgives sin

Only God forgives sins.39 Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, “The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins” and exercises this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven."40 Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name.41

39 Cf. Mk 2:7.
40 Mk 2:5,10; Lk 7:48.
41 Cf. Jn 20:21-23

2.) If you do as Christ taught in regards to the forgiveness of sins, you wouldn’t care about any other way.

3.) Arguing from silence is not very wise when the Lord’s instructions are clear enough on there own.

 

[jay29]

Please produce the scripture that states that we must confess to an ordained priest.

“Christ, whom the Father hallowed and sent into the world, has, through his apostles, made their successors, the bishops namely, sharers in his consecration and mission; and these, in their turn, duly entrusted in varying degrees various members of the Church with the office of their ministry. The function of the bishops’ ministry was handed over in a subordinate degree to priests so that they might be appointed in the order of the priesthood and be co-workers of the episcopal order for the proper fulfillment of the apostolic mission that had been entrusted to it by Christ.”

Thus the risen Christ, by giving the Holy Spirit to the apostles, entrusted to them his power of sanctifying: they became sacramental signs of Christ. By the power of the same Holy Spirit they entrusted this power to their successors. This “apostolic succession” structures the whole liturgical life of the Church and is itself sacramental, handed on by the sacrament of Holy Orders.

 

[onetimeposter]

1.) This speaks for and stands by itself. Assail it:

Only God forgives sin

Only God forgives sins.39 Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, “The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins” and exercises this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven."40 Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name.41

39 Cf. Mk 2:7.
40 Mk 2:5,10; Lk 7:48.
41 Cf. Jn 20:21-23

2.) If you do as Christ taught in regards to the forgiveness of sins, you wouldn’t care about any other way.

3.) Arguing from silence is not very wise when the Lord’s instructions are clear enough on there own.

Fine. Let’s suppose I agree with you on the interpretation of that scripture.

Now, as we both know, there is much scripture that deals with forgiveness of sins and makes zero mention of confessing to a man.

Can you produce any scripture that states we must confess to a priest.

Who made the decision that venial sins can be forgiven directly by God and who made the decision that a mediator, by way of an ordained Catholic priest is necessary to forgive mortal sins.

On the same vain, ( and I do understand why the Church differentiates between mortal and vain) but do you know what made the decision that there were two types of sins and that confessing directly to God can only receive forgiveness for one, but not the other? ( Not including the un-pardonable sin)

Now, where doe

 

[onetimeposter]

Each time a Catholic, here on a Catholic Site, tries to respond by referring to what the Catholic Church teaches, and the importance of the Tradition, the Scriptures, and the Magisterium as the three witness to the Truth…

you say irrelevant.



Your post was not a question.

Nor was mine… both were statements.

If you don’t know the answer, then please don’t bother berating a relevant question.

 

[jay29]

Fine. Let’s suppose I agree with you on the interpretation of that scripture.

There is no interpretation to be made. The passage speaks for itself.

**John 20:22-23
**
And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

Jesus CERTAINLY gave the Apostles the Power of the Holy Spirit to forgive sins in His Name. Stands on it’s own.

Now, as we both know, there is much scripture that deals with forgiveness of sins and makes zero mention of confessing to a man.

Wrong. Jesus told His Apostles to go and forgive sins.

Why did Jesus give the Power of the Holy Spirit to His Apostles to forgive sins then? Was it just a joke?

Can you produce any scripture that states we must confess to a priest.

There doesn’t need to be. He told His Apostles to go forgive sins, by the Power of the Holy Spirit and in His Name.

Who made the decision that venial sins can be forgiven directly by God and who made the decision that a mediator, by way of an ordained Catholic priest is necessary to forgive mortal sins.

There is no mediator: It is God who forgives sins through that same Power of the Holy Spirit He gave to His Apostles, done in His Name.

On the same vain, ( and I do understand why the Church differentiates between mortal and vain) but do you know what made the decision that there were two types of sins and that confessing directly to God can only receive forgiveness for one, but not the other? ( Not including the un-pardonable sin)

Show me where confessing to God ALONE is permitted for the forgiveness of sins? Venial sins are given forgiveness by the Eucharist itself and is the only other way, besides Penance.

Sins are rightly evaluated according to their gravity. The distinction between mortal and venial sin, already evident in Scripture,129 became part of the tradition of the Church. It is corroborated by human experience.

Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him.

Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds it.

Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God’s mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation:

When the will sets itself upon something that is of its nature incompatible with the charity that orients man toward his ultimate end, then the sin is mortal by its very object . . . whether it contradicts the love of God, such as blasphemy or perjury, or the love of neighbor, such as homicide or adultery. . . . But when the sinner’s will is set upon something that of its nature involves a disorder, but is not opposed to the love of God and neighbor, such as thoughtless chatter or immoderate laughter and the like, such sins are venial.130 129 Cf. 1 Jn 5:16-17.
130 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh I-II,88,2, corp. art.

 

[PBP]

Please let me know where it is found in the Bible, that the only way to receive the forgiveness of sins is to confess to an ordained priest.

Thanks

The priest is used as the ordinary minister of the sacrament thru apostolic succession established by Christ. Jesus says that whoever sins you forgive, so it is so. Whoever sins you retain, so it is. GOD/Jesus establishes for some necessity, this sacrament (oath) as the ordinary means. Jesus gave ordinary men the power to forgive sin in HIS name. The sacrament is a merciful encounter with Christ. By confessing to the priest you also become aware of the effects of sin on the community. GOD forgave your sin as soon as you were sorry for it. The sacrament restores communion with the church community. It is medicinal and comforting. You receive graces to go out and sin no more.

 

[onetimeposter]

All right, so we all know that there isn’t any scripture that directs any person to confess to an ordained priest in order to receive the forgiveness of sins from God.

This practice is solely based upon the Church’s interpretation, their belief in apostolic succession, the Church’s vision of what confession should be and the Church’s evolving tradition.

 

[jay29]

All right, so we all know that there isn’t any scripture that directs any person to confess to an ordained priest in order to receive the forgiveness of sins from God.

Ignore scripture all you want. Many protestants do.

What is the point of this OBVIOUS passage?

**John 20:22-23
**
And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

THIS PASSAGE DOES NOT NEED ANY INTERPRETATION.

Why would Jesus direct the Apostles to forgive sins by infusing them with the power of the Holy Spirit? Why would Jesus do that? Jesus never told anyone to confess his/her sins to Himself directly.

You lose, big time.

 

[onetimeposter]

There is no interpretation to be made. The passage speaks for itself.

**John 20:22-23
**
And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

Jesus CERTAINLY gave the Apostles the Power of the Holy Spirit to forgive sins in His Name. Stands on it’s own.

Wrong. Jesus told His Apostles to go and forgive sins.

Why did Jesus give the Power of the Holy Spirit to His Apostles to forgive sins then? Was it just a joke?

**Where does it say the only way to receive forgiveness is to confess to an ordained priest?
**

There is no mediator: It is God who forgives sins through that same Power of the Holy Spirit He gave to His Apostles, done in His Name.

If the priest is not a mediator, then what is he?

Show me where confessing to God ALONE is permitted for the forgiveness of sins? Venial sins are given forgiveness by the Eucharist itself and is the only other way, besides Penance.

**1 Timothy 2:5

5For there is one God; there is also one mediator between God and humankind, Christ Jesus, himself human, **
**
If the priest isn’t a mediator, what is he?**

**“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). **
**
“All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name" (Acts 10:43).

**
“Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you” (Ephesians 4:32).****
**
“For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you” (Matthew 6:14). **

Hosea 14:2-3 "Take words with you and return to the Lord. Say to him: ‘Forgive all our sins and receive us graciously, that we may offer the fruit of our lips…We will never again say ‘our gods’ to what our own hands have made’"
**
“I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more” (Isaiah 43:25). **

"For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God." (1 Peter 3:18a)
**
“In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace.”**

Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God’s mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation:

Who made this decision and definition…a man.

 

[jay29]

Like I said, Jesus never told anyone to confess their sins to Him ALONE. Never once. He did infuse the Holy Spirit into His Apostles to forgive sins.

Why did Jesus give mere men, the Apostles, the power to forgive sins in His Name?

You are losing, big time.

 

[onetimeposter]

Ignore scripture all you want. Many protestants do.

What is the point of this OBVIOUS passage?

**John 20:22-23
**
And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

THIS PASSAGE DOES NOT NEED ANY INTERPRETATION.

Why would Jesus direct the Apostles to forgive sins by infusing them with the power of the Holy Spirit? Why would Jesus do that? Jesus never told anyone to confess his/her sins to Himself directly.

You lose, big time.

Jesus also directly told his apostles to raise the dead and heal the lepers. The Church doesn’t claim this power in their apostolic authority now do they?

You may feel smug by gloating that I lose, but I’m sorry…this is not a game, at least not to me.