Protestants: Sinner's Prayer-What must it say and does it assure Salvation?

[SteveVH]

I agree that it does “boil down to our own decision to choose eternal life and persevere to the end.”

I have only recently accepted infant baptism. However, I’m still not quite clear on the idea of Confirmation and the point of actual acceptance of Christ. I think my Baptist upbringing and the idea of “alter calls” has left me feeling a bit awkward.

As I participate in the Sunday Episcopal services, I’m left wondering what people do, when they decide they want to accept Christ. Can you explain this from the Catholic perspective?

Anna, I guess I missed this post. Sorry.

Yes, when do Catholics “accept” Christ? As a cradle Catholic, I don’t remember not accepting Him. I think the Catholic take on this is very different. We don’t have “altar calls” per se. From the Catholic perspective we acknowledge our acceptance of Jesus every single Sunday through the profession of faith (the Creed). “I believe in one God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ his only son…” This profession is made aloud in the presence of the entire congregation. I have been repeating this profession for as long as I can remember.

The sacarament of Confirmation is not for the purpose of “accepting” Jesus, although it is certainly a sign that one does, as is the reception of the all the sacraments. Consider, however, that a “Catholic” can just go through the motions as well to the point that they receive little or no grace from the sacraments. I suppose the same could be said for one who stands before others and professes acceptance of Jesus. Only God knows what is in the heart. Confirmation is an action by God of strengthening the grace we received in Baptism and the imparting, by the power of the Holy Spirit, of the gifts of Piety, Counsel, Knowledge, Wisdom, Understanding, Fortitude and Fear of the Lord. Because, in the Western Rite, this sacrament is conferred at a later age (16 - 17 in my diocese) it is mistaken, even by many Catholics, as some sort of personal statement of faith. By the very act of receiving the sacrament, i suppose you would have to say that one is accepting the faith, but that is not the primary puporse of the sacrament. Consider that in the Eastern Rite all of the sacraments of initiation (Baptism, Eucharist and Confirmation) are given to infants. The RCC accepts this as valid.

Indeed, we have a tremendous responsibility to our children. I am very concerned about my own son, who is graduating from University in May. He has decided he doesn’t believe Christ is the Son of God, or that He is part of the Trinity, or that he was born of a Virgin. He has extracted certain teachings of Christ and accepts them separately from His Divinity. He has fallen prey to the popular idea that all roads lead to heaven. Clearly they do not. We had another discussion when he was home for Spring Break last week. It breaks my heart. I just keep praying.

Welcome to the club. Mine just seem to have no interest one way or another. In some ways I think that is even more dangerous then thinking about it and coming to a conclusion. I’ll pray for yours; please pray for mine.

 

[gmcbroom]

Isn’t the Sinner prayer nothing more than the shortened version of the Jesus prayer? I know the Jesus prayer has been used by Orthodox monks for a long time; and goes something like this.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God, Have mercy on me a poor sinner.

 

[Padrej]

Isn’t the Sinner prayer nothing more than the shortened version of the Jesus prayer? I know the Jesus prayer has been used by Orthodox monks for a long time; and goes something like this.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God, Have mercy on me a poor sinner.

I wouldn’t call it shortened but rather lengthened. a sinner’s prayer would have elements of the Jesus prayer in it but it is far longer. It invites the Lord into your heart to live there. I do not see that in the above prayer.

 

[RedBert]

“I want you to know that the greatest heresy in the American evangelical and protestant church is that, if you pray and ask Jesus Christ to come into your heart, He will definitely come in. You will not find that in any place in Scripture. You will not find that anywhere in Baptist history until about 50 years ago. What you need to know is that salvation is by faith and faith alone in Jesus Christ. And faith alone in Jesus Christ is preceded and followed by repentance . . . a turning away from sin, a hatred for the things that God hates and a love for the things that God loves, a growing in holiness and a desire not to be like Britney Spears, not to be like the world, and not to be like the great majority of American Christians, but to be like Jesus Christ!”

Paul Washer

Video:
youtube.com/watch?v=3wX_BPopbKI&annotation_id=annotation_38217&feature=iv

transcript:
scribd.com/doc/789/The-Truth-About-Christianity

 

[Padrej]

“I want you to know that the greatest heresy in the American evangelical and protestant church is that, if you pray and ask Jesus Christ to come into your heart, He will definitely come in. You will not find that in any place in Scripture. You will not find that anywhere in Baptist history until about 50 years ago. What you need to know is that salvation is by faith and faith alone in Jesus Christ. And faith alone in Jesus Christ is preceded and followed by repentance . . . a turning away from sin, a hatred for the things that God hates and a love for the things that God loves, a growing in holiness and a desire not to be like Britney Spears, not to be like the world, and not to be like the great majority of American Christians, but to be like Jesus Christ!”

Paul Washer

Video:
youtube.com/watch?v=3wX_BPopbKI&annotation_id=annotation_38217&feature=iv

transcript:
scribd.com/doc/789/The-Truth-About-Christianity

I find that I agree with most of what you say after the first few lines. I disagree with you on the first part as you obviously do not take into account Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

Funny this theology is still taught as Wesley theological seminary in Washington DC (I mention this as you list being a Methodist and I tutor students from that seminary). If Christ was not living in John Wesley’s heart why would he make the following statement of Christ living in him? * “This man can tell the secrets of my heart; he hath not left me there, for he hath shown the remedy, even the blood of Jesus.” * Published in John Wesley the Methodist, The Methodist Book Concern, 1903

One of the questions asked for joining the early Methodist societies was* “Is the love of God shed abroad in your heart?” *How can the Love of God be shed abroad in your heart if Christ is not living there??? Please tell me you who are Methodist.
I can bet you as a Methodist cringe when you sing “Since Jesus Came into My heart” which used to be one of the old Methodist standards for years, or at least it was when I was growing up in the Methodist church. That song came around in 1914 so that is a bit longer than the 50 years you mention in your commentary. I can remember singing it at camp meetings when I was growing up, or didn’t they have Methodist camp meetings where you live.

So when you say “you will not find it anywhere in scripture” did you cut Rev. 3: 20 out of your Bible as it does not agree with your theology like Thomas Jefferson did with parts of the Bible that did not agree with his theology? Maybe we should add John 15:4 to this mix as well, as it speaks of Christ abiding IN US. Did you forget that passage too? How can Christ Abide in you if you do not invite Him in??? When coupled with the passage from Rev. 3 I ask you to not that it DOES NOT say “I stand at the door and knock it down or kick it in.” You must open the door. Can you please explain these passages in light of your comments of it can be found nowhere in scripture?

 

[RedBert]

I was trying to rebuke the concept of " the magic words to say" to be saved.

It is a 100% heart issue:

So very many people have prayed the " sinner’s prayer" and their life shows absolutely no change.

“if you faith doesn’t change you, your faith doesn’t save you.”

It’s a GREAT video : I just showed the the senior high school Bible I teach.

Video:
youtube.com/watch?v=3wX_B…217&feature=iv

transcript:
scribd.com/doc/789/The-Tr…t-Christianity

 

[crazzeto]

I was trying to rebuke the concept of " the magic words to say" to be saved.

It is a 100% heart issue:

So very many people have prayed the " sinner’s prayer" and their life shows absolutely no change.

“if you faith doesn’t change you, your faith doesn’t save you.”

It’s a GREAT video : I just showed the the senior high school Bible I teach.

Video:
youtube.com/watch?v=3wX_B…217&feature=iv

transcript:
scribd.com/doc/789/The-Tr…t-Christianity

The issue with the sinners prayer, again is the fact that it rebukes the teachings of Christ, in favor of a happy clappy so called “magic prayer” that aboslutly ensures your salvation no matter what you do. Referencing Pardj, it was said earlier that the difference between the sinners prayer/OSAS crowd and the CC is symatecs. I disagreed then, and still do. It’s a fundamental issue of perspective. From ours, we know we’re not “saved” until we say “yes Lord, I will pick up my cross [daily] and follow you”. From the other, it’s “I said my prayer, I have my faith, that’s about all I really need to do”. And I’ve already seen OSAS theory, become OSAS practice. I have friends, who are very devoutly Christian, who I’ve heard tellking their other friends “Man I would love to have a copy of that movie, if “some how” a (burnt) copy of it were to end up on my DVD shelf I wouldn’t ask any question”. But isn’t that a violation of the seventh commandment? Which in Catholic thinking, is quite possibly a mortal sin, certainly grave matter. It disconnects you from God, requireing repentance.

But you see, they’ve said their sinners prayer, and they’re even faining some ignorance. And after all, the MPAA is a big greedy corperation, and hey I’m sure I’ve got the faith in Christ. I’m even super involved at church!!!

 

[Padrej]

I was trying to rebuke the concept of " the magic words to say" to be saved.

It is a 100% heart issue:

So very many people have prayed the " sinner’s prayer" and their life shows absolutely no change.

“if you faith doesn’t change you, your faith doesn’t save you.”

It’s a GREAT video : I just showed the the senior high school Bible I teach.

Video:
youtube.com/watch?v=3wX_B…217&feature=iv

transcript:
scribd.com/doc/789/The-Tr…t-Christianity

Look I will agree with you 100% on your above statements. However. the guy in the video and your line you posted *“I want you to know that the greatest heresy in the American evangelical and protestant church is that, if you pray and ask Jesus Christ to come into your heart, He will definitely come in. You will not find that in any place in Scripture. You will not find that anywhere in Baptist history until about 50 years ago” * is simply a falsehood. Back into the 1800’s there was a period of revivals going around this country and the “sinner’s prayer” was being used formulated from a scriptural model. Even Roman Catholic chaplains during the Civil War used a version of the sinner’s prayer which I posted in this thread.

As I have tried to point out before (I Hope) the prayer does not “assure you” of anything, it is your starting point. As you put it very simply “if your faith doesn’t change you, your faith doesn’t save you.” As crazzeto said "we know we’re not “saved” until we say “yes Lord, I will pick up my cross [daily] and follow you”. To both of you on this I say a resounding AMEN!!!

It is eternally frustrating to me so see persons in the church who claim to have “given their heart to Christ” and yet have not changed one iota. A friend of ours who is a Gospel singer wrote a song about it when I was mentioning this situation and the song speaks of if these people only knew how close to Hell they really are, just one breath, not that far.

 

[FrJohnB]

I hope that this may add to this thread somewhat. When I was doing prison ministry as a Catholic Chaplain along with others we would use a sinners prayer for new converts before teaching them the tenants of the Catholic faith. The prayer was very similar to the ones used by most Baptists and other evangelicals. Granted it was no assurance that they were saved but as Padrej and others point out it is the first step, you must continue to take up the cross and daily try to change. It would be ludicrous to say by saying the sinners prayer that it would excuse you from living as you darn well please, you must change and crucify the old self.

 

[crazzeto]

I hope that this may add to this thread somewhat. When I was doing prison ministry as a Catholic Chaplain along with others we would use a sinners prayer for new converts before teaching them the tenants of the Catholic faith. The prayer was very similar to the ones used by most Baptists and other evangelicals. Granted it was no assurance that they were saved but as Padrej and others point out it is the first step, you must continue to take up the cross and daily try to change. It would be ludicrous to say by saying the sinners prayer that it would excuse you from living as you darn well please, you must change and crucify the old self.

Getting back to the point of the thread, while we all agree there is certainly some good contained with in this prayer there are a couple problems with is, specifically as Cited by Anne

#1: The theology behind the sinners prayer is clear, it is sold as an aboslutely assured means of salvation. No picking up crosses, Christ did that for you

#2: While many faith traditions who use the prayer, do also baptise, they do so typically as a formality. It’s really not viewed as the moment at which you receive not only Grace, but the Spirit it’s self. They think that happened inwardly, but this is problematic, because that’s not what Christ taught.

So while I’ve been stating from the start, that I see some value in a sinners prayer, I still take issues with the theology and having read the specific prayer used (at least in Anne’s experience), I’m not comfortable with that specific prayer as it’s wrapped up in it’s own theology.

 

[SteveVH]

“I want you to know that the greatest heresy in the American evangelical and protestant church is that, if you pray and ask Jesus Christ to come into your heart, He will definitely come in. You will not find that in any place in Scripture. You will not find that anywhere in Baptist history until about 50 years ago. What you need to know is that salvation is by faith and faith alone in Jesus Christ. And faith alone in Jesus Christ is preceded and followed by repentance . . . a turning away from sin, a hatred for the things that God hates and a love for the things that God loves, a growing in holiness and a desire not to be like Britney Spears, not to be like the world, and not to be like the great majority of American Christians, but to be like Jesus Christ!”

Paul Washer

I just find it a little inconsistant that the statement “What you need to know is that salvation is by faith and faith alone in Jesus Christ” is followed by “And faith alone in Jesus Christ is preceded and followed by repentance . . . a turning away from sin…”. Doesn’t the fact that it (faith alone) must be preceded and followed by repentance negate the faith alone aspect? Would faith alone work without repentance? If it would not then we are not saved by faith alone but by faith and repentance.

One other inconsistancy is that after stating that "…if you pray and ask Jesus Christ to come into your heart, He will definitely come in. You will not find that in any place in Scripture." he states that we are saved by “by faith and faith alone in Jesus Christ”. That also is not found in scripture. The word “alone” was added by Marin Luther.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I agree that it does “boil down to our own decision to choose eternal life and persevere to the end.”

I have only recently accepted infant baptism. However, I’m still not quite clear on the idea of Confirmation and the point of actual acceptance of Christ. I think my Baptist upbringing and the idea of “alter calls” has left me feeling a bit awkward.

As I participate in the Sunday Episcopal services, I’m left wondering what people do, when they decide they want to accept Christ. Can you explain this from the Catholic perspective?

. . .Yes, when do Catholics “accept” Christ? As a cradle Catholic, I don’t remember not accepting Him. I think the Catholic take on this is very different. We don’t have “altar calls” per se. From the Catholic perspective we acknowledge our acceptance of Jesus every single Sunday through the profession of faith (the Creed). “I believe in one God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ his only son…” This profession is made aloud in the presence of the entire congregation. I have been repeating this profession for as long as I can remember.

Appreciate the comments. I think this goes back to another thread discussing the role of liturgy. It seems the Episcopal Church has a similar view. Infants are Baptized–children are brought up in the teachings of Christ. I’m just trying to adjust. In Baptist Churches, so much emphasis is placed on the “moment” of one’s salvation, and is followed by the false assurance of OSAS.

The sacarament of Confirmation is not for the purpose of “accepting” Jesus, although it is certainly a sign that one does, as is the reception of the all the sacraments.

I do see that. Wouldn’t those preparing the candidates for Confirmation ensure their understanding of salvation?

That is the case in the Episcopal Church. Prior to Confirmation, I must attend a 10 week Catechism, followed by a spiritual retreat. I know the Catholic Catechism is much longer.

. . . . .Confirmation is an action by God of strengthening the grace we received in Baptism and the imparting, by the power of the Holy Spirit, of the gifts of Piety, Counsel, Knowledge, Wisdom, Understanding, Fortitude and Fear of the Lord.

I am beginning to understand the graces imparted during Baptism and the Eucharist. This has brought about a surprising spiritual awakening. As you know, Baptism and Communion are merely symbolic in the Baptist Church.

. . .in the Western Rite, this sacrament is conferred at a later age (16 - 17 in my diocese) it is mistaken, even by many Catholics, as some sort of personal statement of faith. By the very act of receiving the sacrament, i suppose you would have to say that one is accepting the faith, but that is not the primary puporse of the sacrament. Consider that in the Eastern Rite all of the sacraments of initiation (Baptism, Eucharist and Confirmation) are given to infants. The RCC accepts this as valid.

The Episcopal Rector did explain this to me. Interesting to know the RCC accepts this as valid.

. Welcome to the club. Mine just seem to have no interest one way or another. In some ways I think that is even more dangerous then thinking about it and coming to a conclusion. I’ll pray for yours; please pray for mine.

I will pray for yours, as well. Our young people are bombarded by different versions of “all roads lead to heaven.” Christianity has been diluted and polluted.

. . . .So when you say “you will not find it anywhere in scripture” did you cut Rev. 3: 20 out of your Bible as it does not agree with your theology like Thomas Jefferson did with parts of the Bible that did not agree with his theology?

Padrej,

It is interesting that you mentioned Thomas Jefferson. My son read Jefferson’s book, which quoted many of the words of Jesus. It is this selective theology that is so dangerous to the truth of Christianity.

“Jefferson Bible & The Complete Sayings Of Jesus Christ,” by Thomas Jefferson.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Isn’t the Sinner prayer nothing more than the shortened version of the Jesus prayer? I know the Jesus prayer has been used by Orthodox monks for a long time; and goes something like this.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God, Have mercy on me a poor sinner.

I wouldn’t call it shortened but rather lengthened. a sinner’s prayer would have elements of the Jesus prayer in it but it is far longer. It invites the Lord into your heart to live there. I do not see that in the above prayer.

I hope that this may add to this thread somewhat. When I was doing prison ministry as a Catholic Chaplain along with others we would use a sinners prayer for new converts before teaching them the tenants of the Catholic faith. The prayer was very similar to the ones used by most Baptists and other evangelicals. Granted it was no assurance that they were saved but as Padrej and others point out it is the first step, you must continue to take up the cross and daily try to change. It would be ludicrous to say by saying the sinners prayer that it would excuse you from living as you darn well please, you must change and crucify the old self.

I appreciate all your comments.

There is a very powerful N.T. example of what could be called a Sinner’s Prayer. One of the two thieves on the cross next to our Lord, simply said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”

**Luke 23 (ESV): **41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." 42 And he said, **“Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” **43 And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

The issue with the sinners prayer, again is the fact that it rebukes the teachings of Christ, in favor of a happy clappy so called “magic prayer” that aboslutly ensures your salvation no matter what you do. Referencing Pardj, it was said earlier that the difference between the sinners prayer/OSAS crowd and the CC is symatecs. I disagreed then, and still do. It’s a fundamental issue of perspective. From ours, we know we’re not “saved” until we say “yes Lord, I will pick up my cross [daily] and follow you”. From the other, it’s “I said my prayer, I have my faith, that’s about all I really need to do”. And I’ve already seen OSAS theory, become OSAS practice. I have friends, who are very devoutly Christian, who I’ve heard tellking their other friends “Man I would love to have a copy of that movie, if “some how” a (burnt) copy of it were to end up on my DVD shelf I wouldn’t ask any question”. But isn’t that a violation of the seventh commandment? Which in Catholic thinking, is quite possibly a mortal sin, certainly grave matter. It disconnects you from God, requireing repentance.

But you see, they’ve said their sinners prayer, and they’re even faining some ignorance. And after all, the MPAA is a big greedy corperation, and hey I’m sure I’ve got the faith in Christ. I’m even super involved at church!!!

Getting back to the point of the thread, while we all agree there is certainly some good contained with in this prayer there are a couple problems with is, specifically as Cited by Anne

#1: The theology behind the sinners prayer is clear, it is sold as an aboslutely assured means of salvation. No picking up crosses, Christ did that for you

#2: While many faith traditions who use the prayer, do also baptise, they do so typically as a formality. It’s really not viewed as the moment at which you receive not only Grace, but the Spirit it’s self. They think that happened inwardly, but this is problematic, because that’s not what Christ taught.

So while I’ve been stating from the start, that I see some value in a sinners prayer, I still take issues with the theology and having read the specific prayer used (at least in Anne’s experience), I’m not comfortable with that specific prayer as it’s wrapped up in it’s own theology.

crazzeto,

I think you made some very good points, here. I agree: the problem is the theology behind some uses of a Sinner’s Prayer. The OSAS view, that often accompanies the Sinner’s Prayer in certain Evagelical Churches, has contributed to a negative view of praying such a prayer.

I think most, who have posted on this thread, seem to agree that such a prayer can provide a starting point in our journey as Christians. Indeed, we must take up our cross and follow Christ, as faith without works is dead. We must persevere, until the end-- embracing the love of Christ and pouring out that love upon our fellow man.

Anna

 

[SteveVH]

Appreciate the comments. I think this goes back to another thread discussing the role of liturgy. It seems the Episcopal Church has a similar view. Infants are Baptized–children are brought up in the teachings of Christ. I’m just trying to adjust. In Baptist Churches, so much emphasis is placed on the “moment” of one’s salvation, and is followed by the false assurance of OSAS.

I can see how this would require some pondering.

I do see that. Wouldn’t those preparing the candidates for Confirmation ensure their understanding of salvation?

You would hope so. Unfortunately it really depends upon the knowledge of those in charge of RCIA. The priests usually delegate those duties and aren’t always on top of what is being taught. In very small parishes you are limited as to choices of teachers. In my own parish I basically came unglued after sponsoring several people. They were only teaching on the surface and then teaching “their” view of Catholicism. They weren’t even using the Catechism. My priest instructed me to go ahead teach my candidates outside of and in addition to the official RCIA class. We got that changed and have one of our deacons running the show now. Great improvement. I would just make sure to verify things on your own and ask lots of probing questions. Make sure you are being taught what the “Church” teaches and not someone’s slanted view.

That is the case in the Episcopal Church. Prior to Confirmation, I must attend a 10 week Catechism, followed by a spiritual retreat. I know the Catholic Catechism is much longer.

Our RCIA classes last for two years, although this can very from diocese to diocese. I have heard of one year or 18 months in some.

I am beginning to understand the graces imparted during Baptism and the Eucharist. This has brought about a surprising spiritual awakening. As you know, Baptism and Communion are merely symbolic in the Baptist Church.

You know, we claim that all churches have some truth in them to varying degrees. We claim to have the “fullness” of truth. I think the largest gap in understanding concerns the sacraments.

The Episcopal Rector did explain this to me. Interesting to know the RCC accepts this as valid.

I actually like the fact that in the Western (Latin) Rite we wait until the teenage years. This has nothing to do with the validity of the sacraments being given at infancy. It just gives us a chance to catechize them one last time. This is where I spend the bulk of my time in my parish. I love teaching the teens. They give me so much hope for the future of our Church. It’s so ironic that I spend so much time with them and my own kids really don’t want anything to do with it. It makes me question myself on a regular basis.

I will pray for yours, as well. Our young people are bombarded by different versions of “all roads lead to heaven.” Christianity has been diluted and polluted.

Thank you.

 

[Anna_Scott]

“I want you to know that the greatest heresy in the American evangelical and protestant church is that, if you pray and ask Jesus Christ to come into your heart, He will definitely come in. You will not find that in any place in Scripture. You will not find that anywhere in Baptist history until about 50 years ago. What you need to know is that salvation is by faith and faith alone in Jesus Christ. And faith alone in Jesus Christ is preceded and followed by repentance . . . a turning away from sin, a hatred for the things that God hates and a love for the things that God loves, a growing in holiness and a desire not to be like Britney Spears, not to be like the world, and not to be like the great majority of American Christians, but to be like Jesus Christ!”

Paul Washer

Video:
youtube.com/watch?v=3wX_BPopbKI&annotation_id=annotation_38217&feature=iv

transcript:
scribd.com/doc/789/The-Truth-About-Christianity

I was trying to rebuke the concept of " the magic words to say" to be saved.

It is a 100% heart issue:

So very many people have prayed the " sinner’s prayer" and their life shows absolutely no change.

“if you faith doesn’t change you, your faith doesn’t save you.”

It’s a GREAT video : I just showed the the senior high school Bible I teach.

Video:
youtube.com/watch?v=3wX_B…217&feature=iv

transcript:
scribd.com/doc/789/The-Tr…t-Christianity

I find that I agree with most of what you say after the first few lines. I disagree with you on the first part as you obviously do not take into account Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

Funny this theology is still taught as Wesley theological seminary in Washington DC (I mention this as you list being a Methodist and I tutor students from that seminary). If Christ was not living in John Wesley’s heart why would he make the following statement of Christ living in him? * “This man can tell the secrets of my heart; he hath not left me there, for he hath shown the remedy, even the blood of Jesus.” * Published in John Wesley the Methodist, The Methodist Book Concern, 1903

One of the questions asked for joining the early Methodist societies was* “Is the love of God shed abroad in your heart?” *How can the Love of God be shed abroad in your heart if Christ is not living there??? Please tell me you who are Methodist.
I can bet you as a Methodist cringe when you sing “Since Jesus Came into My heart” which used to be one of the old Methodist standards for years, or at least it was when I was growing up in the Methodist church. That song came around in 1914 so that is a bit longer than the 50 years you mention in your commentary. I can remember singing it at camp meetings when I was growing up, or didn’t they have Methodist camp meetings where you live.

So when you say “you will not find it anywhere in scripture” did you cut Rev. 3: 20 out of your Bible as it does not agree with your theology like Thomas Jefferson did with parts of the Bible that did not agree with his theology? Maybe we should add John 15:4 to this mix as well, as it speaks of Christ abiding IN US. Did you forget that passage too? How can Christ Abide in you if you do not invite Him in??? When coupled with the passage from Rev. 3 I ask you to not that it DOES NOT say “I stand at the door and knock it down or kick it in.” You must open the door. Can you please explain these passages in light of your comments of it can be found nowhere in scripture?

Look I will agree with you 100% on your above statements. However. the guy in the video and your line you posted *“I want you to know that the greatest heresy in the American evangelical and protestant church is that, if you pray and ask Jesus Christ to come into your heart, He will definitely come in. You will not find that in any place in Scripture. You will not find that anywhere in Baptist history until about 50 years ago” * is simply a falsehood. Back into the 1800’s there was a period of revivals going around this country and the “sinner’s prayer” was being used formulated from a scriptural model. Even Roman Catholic chaplains during the Civil War used a version of the sinner’s prayer which I posted in this thread.

As I have tried to point out before (I Hope) the prayer does not “assure you” of anything, it is your starting point. As you put it very simply “if your faith doesn’t change you, your faith doesn’t save you.” As crazzeto said "we know we’re not “saved” until we say “yes Lord, I will pick up my cross [daily] and follow you”. To both of you on this I say a resounding AMEN!!!

It is eternally frustrating to me so see persons in the church who claim to have “given their heart to Christ” and yet have not changed one iota. A friend of ours who is a Gospel singer wrote a song about it when I was mentioning this situation and the song speaks of if these people only knew how close to Hell they really are, just one breath, not that far.

RedBert,

I appreciate your comments. Glad you joined the discussion.

I agree that “it is a 100% heart issue.” I also agree that “many people have prayed the sinner’s prayer and their life shows absolutely no change.”

I disagree with your statement: “The greatest heresy in the American evangelical and protestant church is that, if you pray and ask Jesus Christ to come into your heart, He will definitely come in.”

Padrej answered this issue far better than I could. Good stuff Padrej.

Anna

 

[FrJohnB]

Getting back to the point of the thread, while we all agree there is certainly some good contained with in this prayer there are a couple problems with is, specifically as Cited by Anne

#1: The theology behind the sinners prayer is clear, it is sold as an aboslutely assured means of salvation. No picking up crosses, Christ did that for you

#2: While many faith traditions who use the prayer, do also baptise, they do so typically as a formality. It’s really not viewed as the moment at which you receive not only Grace, but the Spirit it’s self. They think that happened inwardly, but this is problematic, because that’s not what Christ taught.

So while I’ve been stating from the start, that I see some value in a sinners prayer, I still take issues with the theology and having read the specific prayer used (at least in Anne’s experience), I’m not comfortable with that specific prayer as it’s wrapped up in it’s own theology.

On point 1:I will agree with you that the sinner’s prayer is being sold at the assurance of salvation with no picking up of crosses but that Is not how anyone who legitimately uses the prayer uses it I might add.

On point 2: The Roman Catholic church also requires a profession of your faith before baptism so what is your point? Are you saying that WE are doing something that Christ did not teach? We ask people prior to baptism of their faith, we ask parents on behalf of infants of the faith of the infants, are you saying this has no warrant in scripture?

 

[crazzeto]

On point 1:I will agree with you that the sinner’s prayer is being sold at the assurance of salvation with no picking up of crosses but that Is not how anyone who legitimately uses the prayer uses it I might add.

That’s all fine and good, but the most common usage of the prayer, the subject of this very thread is exactly what I expounded upon. The point and origin of the prayer is exactly this, aboslute assurance. What Christians have done traditionally in the thousands of years prior, was a profession of faith which you discuss below.

On point 2: The Roman Catholic church also requires a profession of your faith before baptism so what is your point? Are you saying that WE are doing something that Christ did not teach? We ask people prior to baptism of their faith, we ask parents on behalf of infants of the faith of the infants, are you saying this has no warrant in scripture?

Again, you and I have this real issue of communication. Might I humbly suggest this, please read, reread, and carefully ponder what I’m writing and I will most certainly do the same with your posts. I’m asking this, because you seem to have this (incorrect) idea in your head that I’m attacking the profession of faith. I would like to make clear right now, I have never done this.

I have suggested, continue to suggest, and will always believe however, that a profession of faith must be followed by the baptism of the unbaptised. It can’t stop there, which is the problem I have with the sinners prayer, it lends it self to allowing Christians to believe that it’s perfectly A-OK not to be baptised. In fact I think I mentioned it previously, but I’ll mention it agian. I know one person, who considers him self a very devout Christian, who apparently has not ever, been baptised. He thinks this is perfectly fine, why? He prayed his sinners prayer, and he has his bible. He doesn’t even go to services, who needs them? He’s got his aboslute assurance of salvation.

Do you now see where I’m coming from?

 

[FrJohnB]

That’s all fine and good, but the most common usage of the prayer, the subject of this very thread is exactly what I expounded upon. The point and origin of the prayer is exactly this, aboslute assurance. What Christians have done traditionally in the thousands of years prior, was a profession of faith which you discuss below.

Again, you and I have this real issue of communication. Might I humbly suggest this, please read, reread, and carefully ponder what I’m writing and I will most certainly do the same with your posts. I’m asking this, because you seem to have this (incorrect) idea in your head that I’m attacking the profession of faith. I would like to make clear right now, I have never done this.

I have suggested, continue to suggest, and will always believe however, that a profession of faith must be followed by the baptism of the unbaptised. It can’t stop there, which is the problem I have with the sinners prayer, it lends it self to allowing Christians to believe that it’s perfectly A-OK not to be baptised. In fact I think I mentioned it previously, but I’ll mention it agian. I know one person, who considers him self a very devout Christian, who apparently has not ever, been baptised. He thinks this is perfectly fine, why? He prayed his sinners prayer, and he has his bible. He doesn’t even go to services, who needs them? He’s got his aboslute assurance of salvation.

Do you now see where I’m coming from?

I do see where you are coming from. I feel that most** legitimate churches** that use the sinner’s prayer do follow it up with baptism. There are the exceptions to the rule that you mention in ALL faith’s including our own. I know of Roman Catholics who feel that because they were baptized and confirmed that gives them license to do as they darn well please because in the end they can do one final confession and all will be made right. In their mind they are assured of salvation through the Roman Catholic church by virtue of confirmation and baptism and do nothing but live as they please.

I think the real problem involves the education after the fact, this would avoid the problems we are both speaking of.

 

[Padrej]

I do see where you are coming from. I feel that most** legitimate churches** that use the sinner’s prayer do follow it up with baptism. There are the exceptions to the rule that you mention in ALL faith’s including our own. I know of Roman Catholics who feel that because they were baptized and confirmed that gives them license to do as they darn well please because in the end they can do one final confession and all will be made right. In their mind they are assured of salvation through the Roman Catholic church by virtue of confirmation and baptism and do nothing but live as they please.

I think the real problem involves the education after the fact, this would avoid the problems we are both speaking of.

May I suggest that education before AND after the sinner’s prayer is actually needed to instruct the new believer that this is not a one time thing.