Protestants spend more time in Purgatory than Catholics

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newadvent.org/cathen/15367a.htm

While the date of completion is in conflict with my link, this Catholic source confirms Luther did translate the entire Bible, including the DC books. I still look forward to reading your sources.

Jon
Your dispute is over semantics. Luther translated the entire bible. He removed the 7 deuterocanonical books from the canon, however, placing them in the back of his printed version and declaring them to be less than canonical, but still good to read. He also questioned the canonicity of James and Revelation from the NT. But he kept them in his translation as well. It was only in the mid 1800s that protestant printers began to exclude the deuterocanonical books from their printed bibles altogether. But from the time of the reformation, their canonicity was rejected by Luther and others, primarily because they conflicted with “reformed” church doctrine. Typically, the deuterocanonicals were relegated to the back of the volume, often with other reformation-era writings and confessions of faith.

Peace,
-Robert
 
SO You say Jesus broke the law.
It says so in the Bible.
When he in fact says he did not come to do away with the Law but to fulfill the Law.

Jesus was God incarnate. He was the fulfillment of the OT laws and prophecies.

Yes he did practice Judaism. He celebrated the Feasts he went to the temple he went to the synagogue. He was circumsised.

The last supper was the Passover feast ending with his death as the sacrificial lamb.

Why does it upset you to say he was Jewish? Do you have something against the Jewish people? You shouldn’t, you worship the Jewish Messiah.
It doesn’t upset me. I say He was a Jewish Christian - the first one. They didn’t call it that, but that doesn’t mean it didn’t exist
By the way I am not the one who got off topic I was responding to someone else who was off tiopic.
🙂
 
Oh so then Jesus didn’t start the Catholic Church?

Hmm that messes up a lot of the Churches doctrines then.

And I thought I was the heretical one.
good grief… it was just a “joke”…
 
Ionly God knows the true heart of that sinner who clearly loves God. Who are we to weigh that sort of faith in the balance and mete out speculative suffering in purgatory?

Peace,
-Robert
who are you to weigh my faith “in the balance and mete out speculative…” whatever concerning what i said…?

I am just speaking my opinion based on my knowledge, experiences & observations… which i thought was kinda the point of these forums…
 
I don’t think that was a fair remark. You completely twisted the meaning of what Distracted was trying to say.
thank you…

although, you know… i ought to be used to that kind of thing by now…

& i guess I kind of am… Ho humm :yawn:
 
Your dispute is over semantics. Luther translated the entire bible. He removed the 7 deuterocanonical books from the canon, however, placing them in the back of his printed version and declaring them to be less than canonical, but still good to read. He also questioned the canonicity of James and Revelation from the NT. But he kept them in his translation as well. It was only in the mid 1800s that protestant printers began to exclude the deuterocanonical books from their printed bibles altogether. But from the time of the reformation, their canonicity was rejected by Luther and others, primarily because they conflicted with “reformed” church doctrine. Typically, the deuterocanonicals were relegated to the back of the volume, often with other reformation-era writings and confessions of faith.

Peace,
-Robert
Hi Robert,
I would agree with what you’ve said, with the exception that Luther’s main motivation had more to do with the history of the books, and less because of his theological viewpoint, else he would not have recommended they be read.
As for the NT books that he questioned - there were four - Luther, and many others of his time, had questions about their authenticity.

ntrmin.org/Luther%20and%20the%20canon%202.htm

Jon
 
A group of tranditionalist Catholics who believe the Papal See has been vacant since 1958 because the Popes since then have been heretics.

Jon
They are starting the DE-formation. 😃
 
I didn’t twist anyting. Jesus never converted he was Jewish. Show me in scripture where he said I am a Catholic now?
Show me a Scripture where he said he was Jewish? Show me a Scripture that says you have to have a personal relationship with Christ to get into Heaven. Show me a Scripture taht says we are to go by Scirpture alone…
I am jsut saying when people start saying things like that it makes “Christians” look silly.
Until you answer the aforementioned question & find me those scriptures no one has ever been able to find, i am going to think that many Crhistians outside the True Church look very silly…
Jesus and the Apostles were Jewish. Christianity was a sect of Judaism for years. I don’t know why these things bother so many people.
that’s presumptous… it doesn’t bother me that Jesus WAS Jewish… but saying Jesus was Jewish is kinda like saying an apple tree is an apple seed…
 
Jesus was raised Jewish. His mother was Jewish. Therefore he was Jewish. He went to temple, he was born in the City of David… A Jewish town.

I think arguing whether or not Jesus was a jew is beyond silly. They called him Rabbi which is a term for a Jewish Teacher. You wouldn’t call a Gentile teacher a Rabbi.

Please just go ask the Priest at you Parish if Jesus was Jewish or not. He will tell you.

I didn’t say it bothered you so I was not presumptuous. I know a lot of people that it bothers if you dare say that Christianity came out of Jewish roots. Why it bothers people is beyond me.

If you are talking to someone that knows History and say things like King David was a great Catholic they are going to think you are dumb.

Before I believed in God I talked to many Protestants and Catholics and I thought both were ignorant of their beliefs. When I could tell them more about the history of there churches and more about what the Bible said I wondered why they believed what they believed. As I studied the Bible and read more and more on the History of the Church I began to see wow this had to be God, because the people running it did a lot of stupid things, and still do. Yet it survives.

I talk to a lot of Atheists and Agnostics, who know history. If I go off saying things Like Jesus was a Christian they will not be willing to listen cause they tune you out. There response will be Well the term Christian wasn’t used till 50 AD in Antioch it means little Christian how could Jesus be a little version of himself. Or the Term Catholic wasn’t used till 103 AD how could he be that if that wasn’t even known at the time.

If Christianity was not Jewish what would Jesus tell the Apostles to go first to Judea then the rest of the world. Why would Peter and Paul always say go first to the Jew then the Gentile?

If Jesus was not a Jew how could he be King of the Jews?
Now Some Bible Verses:

Matthew 2
1After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi[a] from the east came to Jerusalem 2and asked, “**Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him.”
3When King Herod heard this he was disturbed, and all Jerusalem with him. 4When he had called together all the people’s chief priests and teachers of the law, he asked them where the Christ[c] was to be born. 5"In Bethlehem in Judea," they replied, “for this is what the prophet has written:
6” ‘But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah,
are by no means least among the rulers of Judah;
for out of you will come a ruler
who will be the shepherd of my people Israel.’[d]"

Matthew 27:11
Jesus Before Pilate ] Meanwhile Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor asked him, “Are you the king of the Jews?” “Yes, it is as you say,” Jesus replied.

Mark 15:2
2"Are you the king of the Jews?" asked Pilate.
** “Yes, it is as you say,” Jesus replied.
**
John 4

Jesus Talks With a Samaritan Woman

1The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John, 2although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples. 3When the Lord learned of this, he left Judea and went back once more to Galilee.
4Now he had to go through Samaria. 5So he came to a town in Samaria called Sychar, near the plot of ground Jacob had given to his son Joseph. 6Jacob’s well was there, and Jesus, tired as he was from the journey, sat down by the well. It was about the sixth hour.

7When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, “Will you give me a drink?” 8(His disciples had gone into the town to buy food.)

9The Samaritan woman said to him, "You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?" (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.[a])

10Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.”

11"Sir," the woman said, “you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? 12Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his flocks and herds?”

13Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

15The woman said to him, “Sir, give me this water so that I won’t get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water.”

16He told her, “Go, call your husband and come back.”

17"I have no husband," she replied.

Jesus said to her, “You are right when you say you have no husband. 18The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true.”

19"Sir," the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”

21Jesus declared, “Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”

25The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”

26Then Jesus declared, “I who speak to you am he.”

Matthew 1
The Genealogy of Jesus
1A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham.
To be the Messiah he had to be in the lineage of King David. A Jewish King.

This is a thread on Purgatory so lets get back to that.**
 
The Genealogy of Jesus
1A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham.
To be the Messiah he had to be in the lineage of King David. A Jewish King.

This is a thread on Purgatory so lets get back to that.
why are you so focused on the fact that Jesus was Jewish?

Well, when he was a child, he ws Jewish… but then he grew up. 😃
 
I Have said before I think its important for All Christians Catholic and Protestant to know the history of the Church. If you truly love Jesus you want to know all about him and the Church and the facts. I love my wife. I want to know every aspect about her. For me the same holds true to God.

For me I was just raised a certain way that you find out the facts on everything. You study and you relay the truth as best you can. When someone says something that makes no logical sense it bothers me. I like to be acurate when I speak I guess that is why for me it is important to mention that he was Jewish.

By the way he claimed to be king of the Jews when he was about to die so he was grown up 👍

But Back to Purgatory… How long do you think the average Protestant will spend there. Also do you think Muslims go to Purgatory or straight to hell?
 
IBy the way he claimed to be king of the Jews when he was about to die so he was grown up 👍
You can’t be both Catholic AND King of the Jews?? hmmm… i guess one (or is it 6?) billion Catholics can be wrong… :confused:
But Back to Purgatory… How long do you think the average Protestant will spend there. Also do you think Muslims go to Purgatory or straight to hell?
well… i don’t know if the average i heard (40 yrs) was for catholics or for everyone… i just heard that Prot are there longer than Catholics - for one thing, they don’ have anyone to pray them out of there… unless they know some devout Catholic person or whatever… In any case, 40 yrs of suffering is too long for me so i am going to try to do my Purgatory here on Earth… How? I am going to keep coming to the Forums… 😃
 
Nice yes the forums are a purgatory.

here is an interesting Question about Purgatory. You said having someone pray you out… Well isn’t purgatory to cleanse you form all iniquity form sin? So if someone is doing a mass or praying for you does it become more intense for the person you are praying for or are you bribing God to get them out sooner?

I also wonder what about the Catholic who goes to mass daily even but when you talk to them about why they tell you because they always have, but they really don’t believe in it… its just a habit. I had one Catholic(I know you will say he isn’t Catholic) tell me he did not believe in the Eucharist and that most of the Bible was a fairy tale and he doubted Jesus existed, but he went to Mass because he always had. What will happen to this person?

Oh and to be King of the Jews you have to be a Jew… Similar to being President of the United States you have to be an american,There are 6 Billion Catholics in the world? So everyone in the world is Catholic?
 
You said having someone pray you out… Well isn’t purgatory to cleanse you form all iniquity form sin? So if someone is doing a mass or praying for you does it become more intense for the person you are praying for or are you bribing God to get them out sooner?
i read this thing written by a canonized saint who said that when she prayed for this person, the person’s soul (who had asked her to pray her out of Purg) appeard to her in worse shape than before… so it appears that the intensity of the purification process increases with prayers… I don’t know about Masses… i do know that a Mass is very powerful for me, spiritually. And all the angels & saints participate…
I also wonder what about the Catholic who goes to mass daily even but when you talk to them about why they tell you because they always have, but they really don’t believe in it… its just a habit. I had one Catholic(I know you will say he isn’t Catholic) tell me he did not believe in the Eucharist and that most of the Bible was a fairy tale and he doubted Jesus existed, but he went to Mass because he always had. What will happen to this person?
god knows… and we can trust he will be perfectly just…
Oh and to be King of the Jews you have to be a Jew… Similar to being President of the United States you have to be an american,?
Well, Jesus is for the entire human race… so that’s why i don’t particulalry like calling him Jewish…

I like calling him Catholic… 😃
 
i wish i could remember where i heard that, but it makes sense
{You should have facts before you make wild statements like this}
because Protestants, generally speaking (especially those who live by OSAS) make a lot of “excuses” for their sins and bad behavior…
{I don’t think you understand the truth behind once saved always saved or you would not make a comment like this}
They think they don’t have to “pay” for then because Jesus paid the price…
{Yes, My Jesus paid the ultimate price for my sins by giving up his life and being tortured and then hung on a cross to die to cover every sin man could ever think to commit, and to cover every disease so man can be healed] What they don’t realize is that sin causes an ugly stain on the soul that will keep the soul from entrance into Heaven - until it is wiped away… (by the application of Christ’s Blood atonement)… on this earth and/or in Purgatory… If you have been Born Again (as Jesus tells us we must be in John 3–whole chapter) then you are already covered with the blood of Jesus,.your sins have been covered too. Believers in Chris, Born Again, those who abide in Christ and the earthy saints, will not have to face the great white throne judgement seat of God. Only the non-believers.2 Cor. 5:10
We must temper our judgement of others because our evaluation is coming!
I (those of us born again) care very deeply about not sinning and offending God. We are not made perfect yet. And when we sin we still need to go to God and commit our sins to him and ask for forgiveness…which he gives, then he forgets our sins.Heb. 8:12 “For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.”

Revelation says that “no unclean thing will enter Heaven” (21:27)…

(1 Cor 3:13, St. Matthew 18:23, St. Matthew 12:32, etc…)

They don’t seem to believe that what Christ did on Calvary actually has to be APPLIED…

It is like being given a nutritious, delicious meal… and not making a move to eat it because you think… “I don’t need to… i will remain healthy indefinitely anyway…”
 
here is an interesting Question about Purgatory. You said having someone pray you out… Well isn’t purgatory to cleanse you form all iniquity form sin? So if someone is doing a mass or praying for you does it become more intense for the person you are praying for or are you bribing God to get them out sooner?
It’s part of the Community of Saints. When you are asked to pray for a person going through personal hardships, does their hardship become more intense or are you bribing God to get them better sooner?
I also wonder what about the Catholic who goes to mass daily even but when you talk to them about why they tell you because they always have, but they really don’t believe in it… its just a habit.
as one who goes to daily mass, a habit I developed in my childhood, I resent that implication. All the people I go to daily mass with go because they love the mass and the Eucharist.

Every one of them.
I had one Catholic(I know you will say he isn’t Catholic) tell me he did not believe in the Eucharist and that most of the Bible was a fairy tale and he doubted Jesus existed, but he went to Mass because he always had. What will happen to this person?
No denying it, there are ingnorant Catholics. But this is not what the CC teaches, as you well know.
Oh and to be King of the Jews you have to be a Jew…
Wasn’t it Pilate who said Jesus was King of Jews? Jesus never said that. And the Jews wanted Pilate to take the sign down, because they denied He was their king.

What is your purpose in posting slanderous remarks by ignorant people. Are you really trying to find out about Purgatory or do you have an anti-Catholic agenda?
 
qui est ce

Actually Pilate asked Jesus are you King of the Jews and he said it is as you say. In other words yes I am.

Luke 23:3 So Pilate asked Jesus, “Are you the king of the Jews?” “Yes, it is as you say,” Jesus replied.

Mark 15:2 “Are you the king of the Jews?” asked Pilate. “Yes, it is as you say,” Jesus replied.

Matthew 2
1After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem 2and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him.”
3When King Herod heard this he was disturbed, and all Jerusalem with him.

Ok He didn’t say it but the Magi thought he was.

What slanderous remarks are you talking about?

The statement about the Catholic who goes out of Habit was from a conversation I had with someone who said they were Catholic. But they did it out of Habit. That is exactly what they told me. There are protestants who do the same thing. They go to church cause that is what you do on Sunday.

I was asking a question about Purgatory and you didn’t answer any of my questions you just took offense at them all.

As far as praying to good for a sick person we do it to get our minds Back on God. If they are healed they are healed if not they are not. Our focus though should remain on Christ. We pray to draw closer to him, not to get things from Him.
 
qui est ce

Actually Pilate asked Jesus are you King of the Jews and he said it is as you say. In other words yes I am.

Luke 23:3 So Pilate asked Jesus, “Are you the king of the Jews?” “Yes, it is as you say,” Jesus replied.

Mark 15:2 “Are you the king of the Jews?” asked Pilate. “Yes, it is as you say,” Jesus replied.

Matthew 2
1After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem 2and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him.”
3When King Herod heard this he was disturbed, and all Jerusalem with him.

Ok He didn’t say it but the Magi thought he was.

He said to him in reply, “You say so.”
My NAB says simply “You say so.” in both Gospels. Here is an excerpt from the introduction

"The New American Bible has accomplished this in response to the need of the church in America today. It is the achievement of some fifty biblical scholars, the greater number of whom, though not all, are Catholics.** In particular, the editors-in-chief have devoted twenty-five years to this work. The collaboration of scholars who are not Catholic fulfills the directive of the Second Vatican Council, not only that “correct translations be made into different languages especially from the original texts of the sacred books,” but that, “with the approval of the church authority, these translations be produced in cooperation with separated brothers” so that “all Christians may be able to use them.”*
What slanderous remarks are you talking about? The statement about the Catholic who goes out of Habit was from a conversation I had with someone who said they were Catholic. But they did it out of Habit. That is exactly what they told me. There are protestants who do the same thing. They go to church cause that is what you do on Sunday.
You said more than that:
I also wonder what about the Catholic who goes to mass daily even but when you talk to them about why they tell you because they always have, but they really don’t believe in it… its just a habit.
You have no idea how precious the Eucharist is to Catholics and how much you hurt them when you say they go to mass every day but don’t believe in it. It is anecdotal and can’t be verified. I would never back up my beliefs by quoting Jack Chick as representative of all Protestants.
I was asking a question about Purgatory and you didn’t answer any of my questions you just took offense at them all.
Sorry.:o I found your remark about “bribing” God as offensive. I did give you an answer, The Communion of Saints. I’ll elaborate in another post, IF YOU CARE TO READ WITH AN OPEN HEART.
As far as praying to good for a sick person we do it to get our minds Back on God. If they are healed they are healed if not they are not. Our focus though should remain on Christ. We pray to draw closer to him, not to get things from Him.
:confused: So praying for the dead can’t achieve this same goal?
 
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