Protestants: What are the "Basics" that all Non-Catholic Christians agree on? And who determines what the "basics" are?

[joe370]

As a Baptist I never said, the Baptist Church is the true church established by God. For me, the true Church of God was the body of believers, which included Baptists, Pentecostals, Non-denominational, etc etc. But not Catholics.

That was how I viewed it as a former non-catholic but the doctrinal disparity within the true Church of God which included Baptists, Pentecostals, Non-denominational, etc etc., was the impetus that led me to search for the historical and very visible church founded by Jesus; the same church to which the apostles belonged. I wanted to belong to the one church that has the authority to resolve doctrinal matters, just as was the case in the early church.

Every non-catholic admits that the catholic church had the authority, via the guidance of the holy spirit, to define the following dogmas:

**The Hypostatic union, Theotokos, the Trinity and the Filioque
**
And the CC deferred to both sacred tradition and sacred scripture to draw their conclusions, meaning that they also had the authority to interpret scripture. From this I inferred that the CC had the authority to speak on the behalf of the church universal regarding the interpretation of scripture, the hypostatic union, theotokos, the trinity and the filioque.

I thought, as a former protestant, If I could trust that the CC got it right about the Hypostatic union, Theotokos, the codification of Scripture, the Trinity and the Filioque, then I could trust the CC about questions that divided the world of protestantism.

 

[joe370]

As pointed out, the “30,000 denominations” thing is somewhat of a myth. It comes from the World Christian Encyclopedia, but many of these “denominations” are just individual Churches that serve a specific ethnic or cultural group (eg. Korean Baptists). And “Denomination”, as they define it, also can only exist within a specific country.

The same article also goes on to state that there are also “300 major ecclesiastical traditions”, in six major “Blocs”. The Six Blocs are Roman Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, Independents, Pentecostals, Marginals, and Anglicans. I think the key here is the Six Blocs.

I agree. Do you know of a reliable source?

 

[ProdigalAnglicn]

Here you go:

philvaz.com/apologetics/a106.htm

 

[PRmerger]

Here you go:

philvaz.com/apologetics/a106.htm

Well, this is curious that you cite this website.

For on that very site it acknowledges that the 33,000 statistic is “in no way inflated.”

Hello Ms. Brown,

Thank you for your inquiry. I can assure you that the figure of 39,000 is in no way inflated. This number represents our most current, up-to-date data. As we are constantly updating this figure, it is not published in print form. The figure of 33,800 from the year 2000 was printed in our book World Christian Trends, (Pasadena, CA: William Carey Library, 2001). Part 12 of World Christian Trends (WCT), Table 12-1 gives figures of denominational totals for all 238 countries of the world.

 

[ProdigalAnglicn]

The number itself is not false. What I’m quarreling with is how they define “denomination”.

 

[PRmerger]

I just took a quick look and already I see some things:

Might not all the below be grouped under “African Apostolic Church?”.
African Apostolic Church of Johane Maranke
African Apostolic Church of Johane Masowe
African Apostolic Church of Nigeria & Benin
African Apostolic Church St Simon & St Johane

Do you see what I’m saying?

Sadly, TrueLight, I cannot say that all of the above churches are in union with each other doctrinally.

It seems as if each of them split from the other in doctrinal disputes.

dacb.org/stories/zimbabwe/maranke_john.html
relzim.org/major-religions-zimbabwe/african-indigenous/
books.google.com/books?id=lcnwmxR2AcAC&pg=PA117&lpg=PA117&dq=African+Apostolic+Church+St+Simon+%26+St+Johane&source=bl&ots=pPINoJDWWP&sig=N50_e1GD7ELp3lUBGmmSremdKhc&hl=en&ei=8-mYTsGKLfHgsQKJ08TvBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[joe370]

Here you go:

philvaz.com/apologetics/a106.htm

You believe that the CC is comprised of 242 denominations? Meaning that 241 catholic denominations are not in communion with the bishop of Rome?

 

[ProdigalAnglicn]

You believe that the CC is comprised of 242 denominations?

Heck no. But same source that says there are 30,000+ denominations also says that the RCC is divided into 242 denominations, which is obviously absurd. Their definition of “denomination” is stupid.

 

[PRmerger]

The number itself is not false. What I’m quarreling with is how they define “denomination”.

Fair enough.

So is there a site that you think is a reliable source for how many Christian denominations there actually are?

 

[PbloPicasso]

The number itself is not false. What I’m quarreling with is how they define “denomination”.

Any group that defines itself different than another group would be one separate group. Thus, they are an independent denomination. Even within my own Protestant upbringing I could easily see that they taught very different doctrine. They all had their own unique spill (spin on the biblical interpretation). Nineteen (19) different Churches of Christ and only some of what they taught were the same. Then if you opened the door to a specific elder or preacher, you’d discover that even they disagree from their own congregation or the other elders. I’ve seen wars start over such things… Just a simple idea of a kitchen being associated with the church building was a scandal for some and another might have an elaborate kitchen associated with it. So, I feel I can safely say that not one of the 19 congregations I witnessed could be said to be of the same cloth. For ever building out there in the world, I would comfortably say that that’s how many different “churches” there are, and that would over power the 33,000 number.

 

[joe370]

Here you go:

philvaz.com/apologetics/a106.htm

Never mind; It goes on to say:

However, since virtually all of these western and smaller eastern rites are in union with the Pope (I am not sure of some of them), there is actually one Catholic Church, not 242 churches or denominations.

 

[TrueLight]

That was how I viewed it as a former non-catholic but the doctrinal disparity within the true Church of God which included Baptists, Pentecostals, Non-denominational, etc etc., was the impetus that led me to search for the historical and very visible church founded by Jesus; the same church to which the apostles belonged. I wanted to belong to the one church that has the authority to resolve doctrinal matters, just as was the case in the early church.

Every non-catholic admits that the catholic church had the authority, via the guidance of the holy spirit, to define the following dogmas:

**The Hypostatic union, Theotokos, the Trinity and the Filioque
**
And the CC deferred to both sacred tradition and sacred scripture to draw their conclusions, meaning that they also had the authority to interpret scripture. From this I inferred that the CC had the authority to speak on the behalf of the church universal regarding the interpretation of scripture, the hypostatic union, theotokos, the trinity and the filioque.

I thought, as a former protestant, If I could trust that the CC got it right about the Hypostatic union, Theotokos, the codification of Scripture, the Trinity and the Filioque, then I could trust the CC about questions that divided the world of protestantism.

What denomination are you from? One of the high Church ones?

I had never heard of Theotokos, Filioque or Hypostatic Union. And as an Evangelical, I most definitely did not believe the Catholic Church got anything right.

In fact, I didn’t realize the Councils who put the Bible together were made up of Catholics!

 

[ProdigalAnglicn]

So is there a site that you think is a reliable source for how many Christian denominations there actually are?

A better indication of how many denominations there are–as “denomination” is traditionally understood by most people–is their number of “300 major ecclesiastical traditions”.

As for the RCC being one church, right. The author commenting on this source at the site agrees, but the World Christian Encyclopedia does not. So it’s very ironic that this source is used by Roman Catholic apologists!

 

[joe370]

Heck no. But same source that says there are 30,000+ denominations also says that the RCC is divided into 242 denominations, which is obviously absurd. Their definition of “denomination” is stupid.

The following isn’t true either, is it? Anglicans (168 denominations)

 

[ProdigalAnglicn]

The following isn’t true either, is it? Anglicans (168 denominations)]

No. There’s the worldwide Anglican Communion and that’s it. I don’t consider myself to be a different denomination from the Church of England or the Anglican Church of South Africa for example, anymore than you would think the Eastern Rite is a “denomination”.

 

[joe370]

A better indication of how many denominations there are–as “denomination” is traditionally understood by most people–is their number of “300 major ecclesiastical traditions”.

As for the RCC being one church, right. The author commenting on this source at the site agrees, but the World Christian Encyclopedia does not. So it’s very ironic that this source is used by Roman Catholic apologists!

 

[joe370]

TrueLight;8467446]What denomination are you from? One of the high Church ones?

I had never heard of Theotokos, Filioque or Hypostatic Union. And as an Evangelical, I most definitely did not believe the Catholic Church got anything right.

As a former Evangelical, you didn’t believe the following:

Mary was God-bearer (Theotokos). Less literal translation being Mother of God, something challenged by some in the early church which was why the CC defined it.

The 2 natures of Jesus, (Hypostatic Union) - doubted by some, which was why the CC defined it.

The Filioque meaning that the holy spirit proceeds from the father and the son, denied by those in the eastern church.

Or the Trinity, challenged by those of the Arian camp, which was why the CC defined it.

In fact, I didn’t realize the Councils who put the Bible together were made up of Catholics!

Really…Did you think they were non-Catholics?

 

[Protector]

ComeHome2Rome;8456342] What do Protestants mean by the word “basics” when they say: **"Christians **“non-Catholics”, all believe the same when it comes to the basics."?
What are these “basics” they’re talking about? Is there a list somewhere? If there is, where did that list come from?

A very good question “ComeHome2Rome” - I would be surprised if it has not been posted before. (Maybe it’s one of those “Old Chestnuts” that floats to the surface from time-to-time ).

how can the average non-Catholic Christian be certain that the basics are the basics?

btw - I’ve never met a non-Catholic who believes in any creeds. A creed is considered way “too Catholic” by the non-Catholics I’ve met.

In so far as “a Creed” is defined as follows:-

“A creed is a statement of belief—usually a statement of faith that describes the beliefs shared by a religious community—and is often recited as part of a religious service”, (Wiki)

I would say that your observation,

I’ve never met a non-Catholic who believes in any creeds. A creed is considered way “too Catholic” by the non-Catholics I’ve met.

is a little confusing since it seems to be stating that it is your belief that ALL non-Catholics have NO "statement of belief, or a statement of faith that describes the beliefs shared by (their) religious community ( Denomination). From your post I deduce that the non-Catholics to whom you allude who intimate that, "A creed is considered way “too Catholic” " are most probably referring to the recitation of a Creed. A simple Google search will find the “Statements of Beliefs”, or “Articles of Faith” of most (if not ALL) of the main non-Catholic (Protestant) Denominations. For example, the C of E (Anglican) has the "Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion ", the SDA have "The 28 Fundamental Beliefs"etc., etc.
If you have some time why not look them all up and compare them against “The Nicene Creed”. You might be pleasantly surprised at the similarities between not only other Protestants, but also the Catholic Church.
An interesting aside here, the “Creed” was originally recited owing to the lack of literacy in the congregation, so as the pre-requisite of Baptism was a recitation of the the “Creed” it became necessary for the would-be convert to try to memorize the “Creed”

 

[TrueLight]

First, my question. Which denomination did you convert from?

As a former Evangelical, you didn’t believe the following:

Mary was God-bearer (Theotokos). Less literal translation being Mother of God, something challenged by some in the early church which was why the CC defined it.

The 2 natures of Jesus, (Hypostatic Union) - doubted by some, which was why the CC defined it.

The Filioque meaning that the holy spirit proceeds from the father and the son, denied by those in the eastern church.

Or the Trinity, challenged by those of the Arian camp, which was why the CC defined it.

Really…Did you think they were non-Catholics?

 

[joe370]

First, my question. Which denomination did you convert from?

Oops, I’m sorry…Lutheranism…