Protestants Whats wrong with this prayer? = Rosary

[Milliardo]

bene7:

Milliardo, you’re so indoctrinated with this teaching that everything I say flies right over your head. Yes, we’ve talked about this before and I’ve ask you before: “what’s your divine source for this information???”

**
Both Scripture and the Church. But since you do not seem to accept what the Church teaches, and that her Magisterium comes from God Himself, then I would suppose it would be pointless to address that now…

So then, Milliardo, did you just hear the prayer I said to you?

First, are we perfectly in communion with Jesus as the saints in heaven are? No, we are still imited very much by our senses, or the flesh.

But true Christianity is based on Divine revelation

Prove then that what the Chuch teaches is not divine revelation.

 

[Milliardo]

deb1:

I wish that I could agree that it was the same Lazaraus that was risen from the dead but Jesus’ friend did not appear to be as poverty stricken as the man in the parable was. Remember Jesus’ friend was the brother of both Mary and Martha who had a home. It sounds to me as though the man in the story was homeless.

There are certainly details in Lazarus’ life that we don’t know; for instance, did he beg or not? That’s not clearly stated. Though we can presume that Jesus would befriend someone like him, as He has always been closer to those who are in need. We also do not know what is the actual status of Mary and Martha, and whether such a status would warrant Lazarus begging.

I have to correct you a bit, that we never read any of WRITTEN PARABLES of Jesus with person’s name

There are at least two other parables outside the Bible, attributed to Jesus. One is in the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas; the other was from Origen. In both instances, neither of them either named any personality.

 

[Zooey]

bene7:

Jesus calls us “brethren” in the spiritual sense, not literally. In John chaper one it is said that those who receive Christ to them God gives the right to become children of God. This is meant in a spiritual sense. So if you say that in a spiritual sense we become the children of Mary, then you have made her equal with God. That’s blasphemy.

Blessings,
Bene

Oh, dear…you really have got to start reading instead of reacting…
Let’s try a true story: My (birth) mother died when I was a child. My godmother brought me up. 99.9% of the time that I say, “my mother”, I am talking about my spiritual mother…the aforementioned lady who brought me up.
I can assure you that I loved (& love!) her dearly, cared for her in her old age right up to her death, & recognized her as my mother, without any legal adoption (not done with a single parent back then).
I can also assure you that considering her my spiritual mother has never caused me once, not even as a small child, to consider her equal to God. So, was that blasphemy? By your:whacky: reasoning, yes, it was.
Calling Mary our mother is:yup: completely & totally logical & loving. It is anything but blasphemy. The only reason that anybody could possibly be so driven to fight the idea as you (& a couple other) are doing, is that:tsktsk: you just have to be right so that you can prove that Catholics are wrong.:nope:
What a sad way to live…

 

[Eireann]

bene7:

It is theologically incorrect to say Mary is the “God bearer” (“theotokos”) because the son to whom she gave birth did not take on divinity, but it was the Son who assumed true humanity Jesus was both human and Devine, -------Devine because He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit, human because he took on the physical, IE; “The word became flesh”

John 20: 27 Then he saith to Thomas: Put in thy finger hither, and see my hands; and bring hither thy hand, and put it into my side; and be not faithless, but believing. 28 Thomas answered, and said to him: My Lord, and my God.

CCC 653* The truth of Jesus’ divinity is confirmed by his Resurrection. He had said: "When you have lifted up the Son of man, then you will know that I am he*." The Resurrection of the crucified one shows that he was truly “I AM”, the Son of God and God himself. So St. Paul could declare to the Jews: “What God promised to the fathers, this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus; as also it is written in the second psalm, ‘You are my Son, today I have begotten you.’” Christ’s Resurrection is closely linked to the Incarnation of God’s Son, and is its fulfillment in accordance with God’s eternal plan./I]

And as I stated above, Mary is that point of entrance by which the Son entered humanity. Mary truly conceived

. Her conception was truly miraculous, but nevertheless a true conception like any other woman’s conception.
I’m afraid Her conception can’t be compared to any other woman’s, every other woman needs physical means to get pregnant.
Mary didn’t have physical contact with any man, she conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit.
How can Her conception be truly Miraculous like any other woman, when she knew not man ?

She gave birth to a child no differently than any other woman would give birth to a child.

Another assumption, you don’t know nor were you there to know if Mary bore Christ like anyother woman.

That’s what the incarnation is all about, that’s the miracle of it all. And per the instruction of Gabriel, that human child she conceived and gave birth to was to be named Jesus. The man “Jesus” did not exist before the incarnation. Certainly God the Son did, but not the man-child “Jesus.” At a definite point in time, in the history of mankind, the Son was “born” into this world system as a true man. It is this true humanity to which Mary was connected. She became the mother of the man Jesus, the long expected Messiah. The truth is she bears no connection to His Divinity - neither then, now, or ever.

Jesus was the word become flesh, you have to agree that the word was around from the very beginning.
John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Jonh 1:14 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The rationale for Mary to be called “God-bearer” because the son she bore was God, crosses the theological distinction between humanity and divinity, and beclouds, if not totally distorts, the wondrous, doctrinal truth that the Son assumed true humanity - the true miracle of the incarnation.

How ?

 

[Eireann]

bene7:

So if you say that in a spiritual sense we become the children of Mary, then you have made her equal with God. That’s blasphemy.

John **19:27 26 When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. 27 After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own.

Here’s an example, and can you tell me why John would have to be told to take the Mother of Jesus into his care, surely John would have known Mary was his mother, and Mary would have known John was Her son ?
Up above, why does it say "His Mother and the deciple standing whom He loved " why doesn’t it say His Mother and His brother ?**

So if Mary was given to us at the foot of the Cross, then what your saying is Jesus blasphemed.

Genesis 3:20* And Adam called the name of his wife Eve: because she was the mother of all the living. *

Here in Genesis by your reckoning is blasphemy as well, because God is God of the living, and here we have Eve called mother of the living.

 

[Eireann]

bene7:

.Elizabeth’s “Lord” was the “man” Christ Jesus.

Oh ! so there are two Lords ? http://bestsmileys.com/clueless/1.gif

 

[Eireann]

Alfie:

The Bible says that man is appointed once to die and then the judgement.

What about Elijah ?

The fact that Mary’s death is not mentioned in the Bible is proof that she is not the mother of God. Usually only the most influential people are mentioned by name.

Luke **7:28 For I say to you: Amongst those that are born of women, there is not a greater prophet that John the Baptist. But he that is the lesser in the kingdom of God, is greater than he. **

The fact that Mary’s death is not mentioned in the Bible is proof that she is not the mother of God.

How is it ?

John ** 14:8 Philip saith to him: Lord, shew us the Father, and it is enough for us. 9 Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also. How sayest thou, Shew us the Father? 10 Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself. But the Father who abideth in me, he doth the works.**

Since Mary brought Jesus to us, then you’ll have to reconcile yourself to the fact that we don’t full understand the mystery of the Incarnation.
From John 14:8 we can see Emmanuel, “God among us” is a hard concept to grasp, but that is what Emmanuel means.

Luke **1:43 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? **

 

[Eireann]

bene7:

AGAIN…I see absolutely no teaching or example in Scripture that Mary, or any so-called saint in Heaven, is to be prayed TO. In fact, I don’t see even one example in Scripture where an Apostle requests Mary’s intercession on his behalf while she was still on earth, either before or after Christ’s resurrection. Now if not one Apostle requested intercession of her while she was still in their presence on earth, how is it that we should request it of her now that she’s in Heaven? On what divine instruction are we to do this?

Job 5:1 Call now if there be any that will answer thee, and turn to some of the saints.

 

[Albert_Ko]

Protestants don’t understand it because they thought it was repeating of so called meaningless prayers and praying to dead saints.

Protestants only have their Bibles, right? Yet, the Hail Mary uses many verses from the Bible itself?

And it was also accused that Catholics are using “excessive language”? Huh??

Rosary is such a huge meditation to the gospel, simply like a gold chain to me that my Mother in Heaven give me.

 

[Eireann]

Albert Ko:

Protestants don’t understand it because they thought it was repeating of so called meaningless prayers and praying to dead saints.

Protestants only have their Bibles, right? Yet, the Hail Mary uses many verses from the Bible itself?

And it was also accused that Catholics are using “excessive language”? Huh??

Rosary is such a huge meditation to the gospel, simply like a gold chain to me that my Mother in Heaven give me.

God Bless you, …you have it in one !

 

[ChristianWAB]

Yeah, I don’t think anybody has a problem with the Lord’s Prayer as Jesus Himself taught this to us. He never taught the Hail Mary though.

The first words of the Hail Mary are, indeed, Biblical. It’s that second part that bothers people. If I looked, I’m sure I could find at least a dozen threads here that debate the label of “Mother of God” and perhaps a dozen more that deal with the idea of Mary “praying for us sinners” so I’ll not open up either of those cans of worms.

As for the “Glory be to the Father,” it looks pretty true to me, so I can’t imagine anybody taking issue with that one. The “O my Jesus” prayer seems pretty safe to say as well, so I would imagine that, purely based on the words, most would have a problem with the “Hail Mary” prayer, but not the others.

They might also remind you that God just might want to hear a prayer that comes in your own words from your own heart, as opposed to a vain repetition of memorized words.

As for meditating on Mary and Jesus, I say that one can and should always meditate on the sacrifice of our risen Christ. I don’t think you need a necklace of beads to do it, either.

Mary, for certain, served an important role for the LORD. For that, she should be respected because God wouldn’t have chosen just anybody for that job. But those who would take issue with the Rosary or the Hail Mary would most likely remind you that JESUS was the One who died for our sins; not Mary.

 

[ChristianWAB]

Eireann:

Job 5:1 Call now if there be any that will answer thee, and turn to some of the saints.

Actually, in the Bibles that I’ve checked, Job 5:1 is always put in question form:

“Call if you will, but who will answer you? To which of the holy ones will you turn?” (NIV)

“Call now, if there be any that will answer thee; and to which of the saints wilt thou turn?” (KJV)

“Call, I pray thee! Is there any that answereth thee? and to which of the holy ones wilt thou turn?” (Darby)

“Call for help, Job, if you think anyone will answer! To which of the holy angels will you turn?” (The Message)

Not one of those puts it in command form, ordering us to consult with saints. And even if it did, it doesn’t specify DEAD saints.

 

[Tonks40]

ChristianWAB:

But those who would take issue with the Rosary or the Hail Mary would most likely remind you that JESUS was the One who died for our sins; not Mary.

It appears then you are not familiar with the reasons and the Mysteries as to why we pray the Rosary…not for “vain repetition” as you suggested, but as a meditative tool to reflect on the life of Christ…

…yes, I said that correctly - the Rosary focuses on Jesus Christ.

Thru Mary’s obedience to God’s will, Christ came as man (First Joyful Mystery - the Annunciation by the Angel Gabriel).

Christ’s purpose on Earth is acknowledged by others (Second Joyful Mystery - the Visitation of Mary to her cousin Elizabeth when Elizabeth’s child in her womb, John the Baptist, leaped at hearing the Mother of Our Lord’s voice).

Christ is born (Third Joyful Mystery - the Nativity).

Christ fulfills the commands of God (Fourth Joyful Mystery - the Presentation at the Temple).

Christ’s ministry is revealed (Fifth Joyful Mystery - Finding Christ at the Temple when Mary and Joseph thought he lost Him).

Christ’s life, actions, Sacrifice, teachings - they are all meditated on in the divine prayer of the Rosary.

Just something you may want to look into and consider.
Peace.

 

[Zooey]

ChristianWAB:

Yeah, I don’t think anybody has a problem with the Lord’s Prayer as Jesus Himself taught this to us. :crying: I have met a number of protestants who teach that the Lord’s Prayer is a “vain repetition”.This is where dislike of the CC takes you…rebellion against our Lord’s own teachings about prayer!!

He never taught the Hail Mary though.

He obeyed her at the wedding at Cana, & made us all her children, from the cross. He modeled it, by being a loving Son.

The first words of the Hail Mary are, indeed, Biblical. It’s that second part that bothers people. If I looked, I’m sure I could find at least a dozen threads here that debate the label of “Mother of God” and perhaps a dozen more that deal with the idea of Mary “praying for us sinners” so I’ll not open up either of those cans of worms.

The whole prayer is Biblical. Read on in Luke. And consider the # of times we are told to pray for one another.

They might also remind you that God just might want to hear a prayer that comes in your own words from your own heart, as opposed to a vain repetition

of memorized words. Believe me, no words could possibly come more from my heart!!

As for meditating on Mary and Jesus, I say that one can and should always meditate on the sacrifice of our risen Christ. I don’t think you need a necklace of beads to do it, either.

We :yup: agree that we should meditate. But-- the rosary is :nope: NOT a necklace! It is what stills our hands, & keeps our attention. It gathers us together, as children are gathered around the knee of a beloved parent.
And there, we pray.

Mary, for certain, served an important role for the LORD. For that, she should be respected because God wouldn’t have chosen just anybody for that job. But those who would take issue with the Rosary or the Hail Mary would most likely remind you that JESUS was the One who died for our sins; not Mary.

Oh, dear…you don’t really believe that anyone here believes any different, do you?
Praying the rosary, we are uniting ourselves with Mary as she stood at the foot of the cross. We ponder, as she pondered, the life, death, & resurrection of her beloved Son. We place ourselves beside the one who was the closest to Christ, both in life, & in death, & from her viewpoint, we see more than we could any other way, of what His coming truly meant.
She is our partner in prayer. We do not worship her; we join with her in prayer to the One Redeemer–her own dear Son.
God bless.

 

[Zooey]

ChristianWAB:

it doesn’t specify DEAD saints.

Dead?? Dead???
Mary & all the saints– dead???
They are not dead!! They are alive, gloriously alive!! The saints are:yup: more alive than you & I can dream of!
Mary is alive in Heaven; & in Heaven, there is real life…not this poor shadow of life that we live here, constrained by mortal woes. She has life eternal, & that life does not end in death, as mortal life will; she is alive; alive & with our Lord, forever & ever more!!:yup:

God bless.

 

[Eireann]

ChristianWAB:

Not one of those puts it in command form, ordering us to consult with saints. And even if it did, it doesn’t specify DEAD saints.

Oh and they aren’t dead, if so how is it that Moses spoke with Jesus ?
Moses died, Deuteronomy ** 34:5 5 And Moses the servant of the Lord died there, in the land of Moab, by the commandment of the Lord: **

If I asked you to pray for me would that be wrong, or anyone on this forum ?

Some infirmities/demons even left the people when a hankerchief was carried to the sick from Paul.

Gal ** 19:11 And God wrought by the hand of Paul more than common miracles. 12 So that even there were brought from his body to the sick, handkerchiefs and aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the wicked spirits went out of them. 13 Now some also of the Jewish exorcists who went about, attempted to invoke over them that had evil spirits, the name of the Lord Jesus, saying: I conjure you by Jesus, whom Paul preacheth. 14 And there were certain men, seven sons of Sceva, a Jew, a chief priest, that did this. 15 But the wicked spirit, answering, said to them: Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you? **

Here we see the demons mocking the efforts of people I would consider less than holy, so it would seem reasonable to ask a holy person to pray for you.

I have to ask why people didn’t pray directly to God, why did they seek out the recourse of Holy People such as Paul ?

Right now I’m beat for time, I will try and get back at a later date.

Adios.

 

[seabird3579]

Eireann:

Oh and they aren’t dead, if so how is it that Moses spoke with Jesus ?
Moses died, Deuteronomy ** 34:5 5 And Moses the servant of the Lord died there, in the land of Moab, by the commandment of the Lord: **

I’m no Bible “scholar” but I believe Deuteronomy was written before our Lord’s resurrection…

 

[Eireann]

seabird3579:

I’m no Bible “scholar” but I believe Deuteronomy was written before our Lord’s resurrection…

I’m definately not a Bible scholar either !
I’m afraid you’ve lost me here the Transfiguration happened during the lifetime of Jesus witnessed by I think three Apostles.

So I’m wondering where exactly was Mose’s when he died, we’re told Elijah was carried to Heaven.
You’ve also got me wondering also where did Moses exactly come from, some were said to be carried to the bosom of Abraham.
Are you mixing up the Resurrection of Jesus with the Transfiguration, or the ability of Jesus to talk only to those that were dead after He ressurected ?

Anyway regardless, Jesus talked to people that were considered dead before He Himself had died.

Matt: 17:1 **And after six days Jesus taketh unto him Peter and James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart: 2 And he was transfigured before them. And his face did shine as the sun: and his garments became white as snow. 3 And behold there appeared to them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 And Peter answering, said to Jesus: Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 5 And as he was yet speaking, behold a bright cloud overshadowed them. And lo, a voice out of the cloud, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: hear ye him.

6 And the disciples hearing, fell upon their face, and were very much afraid. 7 And Jesus came and touched them: and said to them, Arise, and fear not. 8 And they lifting up their eyes saw no one but only Jesus. 9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying: Tell the vision to no man, till the Son of man be risen from the dead. 10 And his disciples asked him, saying: Why then do the scribes say that Elias must come first?**

 

[ChristianWAB]

Tonks40:

It appears then you are not familiar with the reasons and the Mysteries as to why we pray the Rosary…not for “vain repetition” as you suggested, but as a meditative tool to reflect on the life of Christ… Just something you may want to look into and consider.
Peace.

Have another look at the words I used and the tone in which I used them. The confusion doesn’t lie with me. I’m quite aware of how Catholics justify praying the Rosary. I’m just outlining how others view it.

 

[ChristianWAB]

Zooey:
:crying: I have met a number of protestants who teach that the Lord’s Prayer is a “vain repetition”.This is where dislike of the CC takes you…rebellion against our Lord’s own teachings about prayer!!.. The whole prayer is Biblical…Believe me, no words could possibly come more from my heart!!..But-- the rosary is :nope: NOT a necklace!..
Oh, dear…you don’t really believe that anyone here believes any different, do you?
Praying the rosary, we are uniting ourselves with Mary as she stood at the foot of the cross… She is our partner in prayer. We do not worship her; we join with her in prayer to the One Redeemer–her own dear Son.
God bless.

Again, you don’t have to justify your beliefs to me. I know that Catholics don’t worship Mary.

The Rosary bears the appearance of a necklace, but even if it is not, it is unnecessary to use beads for prayer.

As for the Hail Mary being a biblical prayer, it’s not. I’ve read the Bible and it’s not in there as a prayer that either Jesus or anybody else ever taught.