Protestants: Where is the Bible in the Bible?

[Orionthehunter]

Can we agree on these statements?

(1) God can, has, and will save people who have a proper response (Faith) of conscience and truly repents of sins without the physical act of water baptism.

(2) Every person who has been baptised in water will not be saved.

I can see how not getting baptised in water might disqualify someone because it may show a lack of response of conscience but does not God know our heart? that if the opportunity presented itself the believer would get baptised? What if the opportunity could not arise such as a conversion on a deserted island where there is no other Christian or person to perform the baptism or in the desert where there is no water.

Can you perform a baptism on yourself?

I agree with the following:

(1) God can and has saved people without the physical act of water baptism. You will note that I deleted some from assertions from your sentence.

Will: I have no idea what God will do in the future.

Who have a proper response (Faith) of conscience and truly repents of sins: These are exclusive judgments of God. I don’t presume to determine what God deems “proper” or to how God judges another’s wrongdoing.

(2) Every person who has been baptised in water will not be saved.

I don’t know how God will judge a person who denigrates the Sacrament of Baptism to a symbol or something optional or denies to accept this free gift made available to him.

I do believe that the One Who Loves Perfectly will understand if one never gets Baptized because they were on a deserted island.

You can not Baptize yourself.

 

[po18guy]

Can we agree on these statements?

(1) God can, has, and will save people who have a proper response (Faith) of conscience and truly repents of sins without the physical act of water baptism.

(2) Every person who has been baptised in water will not be saved. (Did you mean "Not every person who…???)

I can see how not getting baptised in water might disqualify someone because it may show a lack of response of conscience but does not God know our heart? that if the opportunity presented itself the believer would get baptised? What if the opportunity could not arise such as a conversion on a deserted island where there is no other Christian or person to perform the baptism or in the desert where there is no water.

Can you perform a baptism on yourself?

Jesus was very clear to Nicodemus in John 3:5. Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit”.

And again in Matthew 28:18-20: Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Jesus is always with us spiritually, and physically in the Eucharist (John 6) until he returns.

Baptism is a Sacrament, a grace or gift from God. As with any gift, you receive it, you do not take it.

If you meant “Not every person who is baptized will be saved”, you are correct. Judas was one of the twelve. He travelled, taught, healed and cast out demons along with Christ. (Luke 9:1-2) “When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick”.

Thus, Judas was “saved” in the evangelical sense of the word. However, he consented through weakness of faith and evil desire to allow Satan to enter him. About this, Christ said (Matthew 26:24) “The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.”
-and-
(Mark 14:21) “The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.”
-and-
(Luke 22:22) “The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed, but woe to that man who betrays him.”

Contrast Judas’ fate with that of the repentant thief on the cross: (Luke 23:42-43) Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Most important here is baptism and obeying everything Christ commanded us. Your salvation is still purely a matter of God’s grace, but that grace is most likely if you follow Christ’s commands.

Christ’s peace be with you.

 

[byoby]

This is the point I have been trying to make.

Water baptism is not what saves us, but it is an act of obediance. Therefore I believe any truly born again Christian will want to get baptised out of a response to God’s free gift of salvation. Who would not if you truly believe and have faith in Christ? On the other hand there will be people who get baptised that are not truly born again simply because it is expected of them or they have a false view that because they did the act of baptism they have checked the box for salvation.

It seems logical to me that water baptism is not the crux of our salvation but it is our belief and faith in Christ. We have to continue in our faith until the end.

If water baptism is the crux then all new & old test. Saints who have not been baptised by water would not be saved.

Thank you for restating my 2nd point.

 

[agangbern]

This is the point I have been trying to make.

Water baptism is not what saves us, but it is an act of obediance. Therefore I believe any truly born again Christian will want to get baptised out of a response to God’s free gift of salvation. Who would not if you truly believe and have faith in Christ? On the other hand there will be people who get baptised that are not truly born again simply because it is expected of them or they have a false view that because they did the act of baptism they have checked the box for salvation.

It seems logical to me that water baptism is not the crux of our salvation but it is our belief and faith in Christ. We have to continue in our faith until the end.

If water baptism is the crux then all new & old test. Saints who have not been baptised by water would not be saved.

Thank you for restating my 2nd point.

As regards the pre-requisite for entrance to the Kingdom of Heaven, being born of water and spirit (that is, baptism) is the general rule, while non-baptism (as in extra ordinary cases) is only an exception.

Baptism qualifies a person to enter the Kingdom. But if the person should decide not to enter the Kingdom and instead go somewhere else, his free will would still prevail.

Conversely, a person may not have been baptized for no fault of his own. But his heart is with God as he observes His laws that are revealed through nature. In such case, the person may find pleasure with God even though the person was not baptized.

 

[Lampo]

What about the thief on the cross? He obviously was not baptised in the visible sense by water but was told by Jesus that today he would be with him in paradise.

Yep. Probably needed some purification in Purgatory first.

 

[Orionthehunter]

This is the point I have been trying to make.

Water baptism is not what saves us, but it is an act of obediance. Therefore I believe any truly born again Christian will want to get baptised out of a response to God’s free gift of salvation. Who would not if you truly believe and have faith in Christ? On the other hand there will be people who get baptised that are not truly born again simply because it is expected of them or they have a false view that because they did the act of baptism they have checked the box for salvation.

It seems logical to me that water baptism is not the crux of our salvation but it is our belief and faith in Christ. We have to continue in our faith until the end.

If water baptism is the crux then all new & old test. Saints who have not been baptised by water would not be saved.

Thank you for restating my 2nd point.

Byoby: The Church has never taught or asserted Baptism is the source of our salvation. It is Jesus Christ. I’m at a loss on why you keep alluding to it. Can you please shed some light on why you think that?

But Baptism is more than an act of obedience. In fact, the mission of going out to Baptize is more an act of obedience. For most of us, it is an acceptance of free gift from God to recieve an abundance of Graces which give one a greater capacity for then in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit to guide, counsel, and comfort one in the pursuit of Holiness. And it is in growing in Holiness that we can better know, serve, and love our Lord. And, by giving Christ His proper place in our heart that we gain the strength to follow His commands in this world.

It is in following Christ (requires more than belief) that we are saved. Graces give us strength to follow. Baptism is a great (if not the greatest) gift of abundant graces. It is more than an act (“work?”) of obedience.

 

[byoby]

Byoby: The Church has never taught or asserted Baptism is the source of our salvation. It is Jesus Christ. I’m at a loss on why you keep alluding to it. Can you please shed some light on why you think that?

But Baptism is more than an act of obedience. In fact, the mission of going out to Baptize is more an act of obedience. For most of us, it is an acceptance of free gift from God to recieve an abundance of Graces which give one a greater capacity for then in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit to guide, counsel, and comfort one in the pursuit of Holiness. And it is in growing in Holiness that we can better know, serve, and love our Lord. And, by giving Christ His proper place in our heart that we gain the strength to follow His commands in this world.

It is in following Christ (requires more than belief) that we are saved. Graces give us strength to follow. Baptism is a great (if not the greatest) gift of abundant graces. It is more than an act (“work?”) of obedience.

I agree

 

[byoby]

Yep. Probably needed some purification in Purgatory first.

Did Jesus as well? Jesus said today you will be with me in paradise.

 

[Orionthehunter]

This is the point I have been trying to make.

Water baptism is not what saves us, but it is an act of obediance. Therefore I believe any truly born again Christian will want to get baptised out of a response to God’s free gift of salvation. Who would not if you truly believe and have faith in Christ? On the other hand there will be people who get baptised that are not truly born again simply because it is expected of them or they have a false view that because they did the act of baptism they have checked the box for salvation.

It seems logical to me that water baptism is not the crux of our salvation but it is our belief and faith in Christ. We have to continue in our faith until the end.

If water baptism is the crux then all new & old test. Saints who have not been baptised by water would not be saved.

Thank you for restating my 2nd point.

Byoby: The Church has never taught or asserted Baptism is the source of our salvation. It is Jesus Christ. I’m at a loss on why you keep alluding to it. Can you please shed some light on why you think that?

But Baptism is more than an act of obedience. In fact, the mission of going out to Baptize is more an act of obedience. For most of us, it is an acceptance of free gift from God to recieve an abundance of Graces which give one a greater capacity for then in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit to guide, counsel, and comfort one in the pursuit of Holiness. And it is in growing in Holiness that we can better know, serve, and love our Lord. And, by giving Christ His proper place in our heart that we gain the strength to follow His commands in this world.

It is in following Christ (requires more than belief) that we are saved. Graces give us strength to follow. Baptism is a great (if not the greatest) gift of abundant graces. It is more than an act (“work?”) of obedience.

I agree

byoby, you say you agree with what I wrote but it doesn’t conform to two statements you made previously. First, you claim it is an act of obedience. I assume you agree with the thrust of my post that it not an act of obedience but a source of Grace.

But you also said it is a response to being saved (see bolded above). You have it backwards. We receive Graces from Baptism which aid us to be Holy which aids us to be followers which gives us salvation.

We don’t get Baptised because we are saved. We get baptised so we might gain salvation.

 

[Lampo]

Did Jesus as well?

You’re kidding, right?

Jesus said today you will be with me in paradise.

Why do think the passage reads like this?: “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

And not like this?: “Amen, I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”

Notice the difference? When the Bible was written there was no punctuation. There were not even breaks between words.

 

[Kay_Cee]

May I make some simple requests?

Can we get back to the OP’s question?

If you want to discuss Baptism, could you please open another thread?

I, for one, have been following this thread (at least before it got derailed) and have yet to see an answer to the question.

 

[agangbern]

May I make some simple requests?

Can we get back to the OP’s question?

If you want to discuss Baptism, could you please open another thread?

I, for one, have been following this thread (at least before it got derailed) and have yet to see an answer to the question.

That is true, Kay Cee! Our various posts are not doing justice to the topic of this thread. But if this must go this way as anyone pleases, so be it.

 

[byoby]

byoby, you say you agree with what I wrote but it doesn’t conform to two statements you made previously. First, you claim it is an act of obedience. I assume you agree with the thrust of my post that it not an act of obedience but a source of Grace.

But you also said it is a response to being saved (see bolded above). You have it backwards. We receive Graces from Baptism which aid us to be Holy which aids us to be followers which gives us salvation.

We don’t get Baptised because we are saved. We get baptised so we might gain salvation.

I realized that we are splitting hairs here and that we both believe that everyone should get baptised when they decide to respond to the Word as revealed to them by the Father. I think there are examples in the bible of people recieving the Holy Spirit before getting baptised although I would have to look. I sincerely believe that my salvation was secured in my belief and faith in Christ as long as I remain in the faith. If we are faithfull then we will be obediant to God realizing that we need Him to do so. I would have to question if someone did not remain in the faith if they really were sincere to begin with. This is my opinion because I personally do not understand how someone could leave the faith if they truly understood and experienced life with Christ.

 

[byoby]

May I make some simple requests?

Can we get back to the OP’s question?

If you want to discuss Baptism, could you please open another thread?

I, for one, have been following this thread (at least before it got derailed) and have yet to see an answer to the question.

I believe the question in this thread is the same as asking someone where is the sky in the sky.

 

[byoby]

You’re kidding, right?

Why do think the passage reads like this?: “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

And not like this?: “Amen, I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”

Notice the difference? When the Bible was written there was no punctuation. There were not even breaks between words.

Jesus did not say, amen, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise after you go to purgatory.

I am not a scholar who could argue where and why punctuation is placed in particular verses. I realize from your response that entire meanings could be changed by moving punctuation marks. This is a slippery slope.

 

[qui_est_ce]

May I make some simple requests?

Can we get back to the OP’s question?

If you want to discuss Baptism, could you please open another thread?

I, for one, have been following this thread (at least before it got derailed) and have yet to see an answer to the question.

It was decided that “Bible” is not in the Bible quite a while ago.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2801952#post2801952

 

[agangbern]

I believe the question in this thread is the same as asking someone where is the sky in the sky.

Ha ha ha! Somehow, byoby made me laugh…At least, he refreshed my heart somehow…

 

[Lampo]

Jesus did not say, amen, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise after you go to purgatory.

No one claimed that He did say this.

I am not a scholar who could argue where and why punctuation is placed in particular verses. I realize from your response that entire meanings could be changed by moving punctuation marks. This is a slippery slope.

Could it be true?

 

[byoby]

Could it be true?

I suppose anything could be true if we are going to read between the lines. Someone could say the thief went to Disney World before paradise because Jesus never explicitly said that the thief did not.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I suppose anything could be true if we are going to read between the lines. Someone could say the thief went to Disney World before paradise because Jesus never explicitly said that the thief did not.

The point is, you DO have to know these things, or have someone know them for you (theologians) because we can’t know everything. That is why there is Magesterium in CC. We have to know the audience and the OT in order to understand NT sayings.

What do you think Jesus meant when He said, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?’ Did God forsake Himself?